Ogg/Vorbis on Palm OS

loshwomp writes "We have built an audio player for Palm OS, and a public beta is available now. The beta includes support for Ogg/Vorbis audio, and a future beta will include plug-ins for more formats, as well as the plug-in SDK itself."

Comments

Lots of fun

[p00kiethebear]

This should prove to be really usefull to me since i just converted all of my music to ogg. I can't wait to download it!

Re:Lots of fun

[commbat]

Please tell me, when you say "converted," that you did not transcode from mp3 to ogg.

As an experiment I converted a 320Kbps mp3 to 160Kbps (Q5) ogg. They both sounded exactly the same through my crappy speakers.

As soon as I hunt down an old pair of walkman headphones (for the mini plug) I'll cobble together a mini-plug to rca patch cord and hook up to my stereo. Maybe then I'll hear a difference.

processor intensive?

[absurdhero]

Are Palms high performance or has the OGG/Vorbis decoder gotten a lot less processor intensive, I wonder?

Re:processor intensive?

[Burnon]

From the article:
"AeroPlayer presently runs on Palm's Tungsten T handheld."

The Tungsten is pretty beefy. It's got both a high speed ARM925 processor and a high-speed DSP in it.

Re:processor intensive?

[millette]

There are two answers to your question. First, the new Palm OS v5 was designed to run on much more powerfull processors. Second, there was a problem for a while with ogg not having a integer only decoder algo. Lots of pdas aren't equipped with a floating point unit, so that was a real show stopper. Well, not anymore, since the integer version of the decoder is now also available with an open license.

Re:processor intensive?

[joe_bruin]

any jackass could have done this port in, oh, 5 minutes.

the palm tungsten t uses a texas instruments omap cpu. the omap is not just an arm. it is an arm-9 and c5500 dsp core on one die (what they call a dual-core). they share memory and dma channels and a special message-passing bridge, which makes it much easier to program and debug.
an omap can decode mpeg 2 at 640x480 at 30 frames per second. the arm 9 itself is fast enough to run the ogg tremor integer decoder without the dsp (i've seen it run on an arm-7 @74mhz, although it eats the entire cpu on that one).

the only thing it needed was user interface/io code and recompiling the tremor libraries. this is not much of a story, as any palm programmer could have trivially done this port.

Re:processor intensive?

[g4dget]

Yes, but it's hard to write native ARM code or native DSP code: PalmOS5 runs all applications as interpreted 68000 code; the best you can do (with a lot of work) is link in some assembly routines.

Re:processor intensive?

[g4dget]

First, the new Palm OS v5 was designed to run on much more powerfull processors.

PalmOS 5 runs on ARM, but applications under it mostly run as interpreted 68k code. It is possible to write native ARM code for PalmOS 5, but it's a lot of work and there qre quite a few restrictions on it. I doubt that the Ogg integer decoder would compile on it without major work.

Re:processor intensive?

[Anonymous Coward]

not totally true. it will run native arm code but as of yet the build chain hasn't been release.

Re:processor intensive?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to all the information I have seen from Palm, PalmOS 5 will not run ARM-native apps ever--there simply are no ARM-based system call entry points in the kernel. What it will let you do is put ARM subroutines into 68k code, and the only build tools Palm has promised for that is for ARM assembly.

Re:processor intensive?

[Burnon]

Skimming the overview on how to link in an ARM subroutine here, I didn't get the impression that it'd be very hard to do. There's no mention that the linked in function must be assembly - there's no reason that the entire ogg codec couldn't be linked via a large ARM C API.

FWIW, it looks like a tools improvement permitting pure native ARM application development ought to be forthcoming sometime next year.

Re:processor intensive?

[ardiri]

PceNativeCall()

you might want to check your documentation again. we have successfully written a number of native ARM code chunks in our palmos applications.

Re:processor intensive?

[VersedM]

Easy or not, they are the ones who (apparently) did it *first*, and that's newsworthy.

Re:processor intensive?

[ardiri]

> but as of yet the build chain hasn't been release.

wrong.

prc-tools 2.2 was released a few weeks back, it has an arm compiler included in the distribution. the 'mainstream' compiler (codewarrior) has arm support as of release 9; and, has been mentioned publically in developer forums and is currently in beta testing (some developers have that luxury). i also posted arm-gcc building instructions to my website on August 05, 2002. so, its not "impossible" to build stuff - if you are a developer, and, you have the desire to program armlets; you have had a chance to do this for months. its not news; palmsource showed arm units at PalmSource 2002 in february.

Re:processor intensive?

[stickyc]

any jackass could have done this port in, oh, 5 minutes. Shame on you jackasses and Palm Programmers for taking so long to put out what would surely be one of the more 'killer apps' for the Palm. Maybe charge $15 for it shareware, maybe get 10,000 buyers... From the tone of voice in your post, it sure sounds like you could have done it. What kind of jackass turns down $150k for 5 minutes work?

just think...

[carpe_noctem]

Now I can listen to Beethoven's 9th Symphony for 24 straight hours on my palm. woot.

Lots of Battery Time

[Mirell]

Noting the info on the page: 4-5 hours typical battery life on a full charge.

Frame rate: 1, maybe two per minute.
Color: Black. White is optional.
Sound: Screeching Square Waves

Expansion card?

[an_mo]

Why does it have to store ogg on the expansion card? I have space on my device, why can't I use it?

Re:Expansion card?

[ardiri]

palm doesn't have an "internal" file system. everything is stored as a resource or record database. the data chunk is limited to 64k. there are API's available that allow filestreaming, which, pretty much do 'internal management' of your data in 4k record chunks :) a good programmer would support filestreaming .pdb files - i have written a number of utilities to convert from a normal file -> .pdb filestreaming.

um.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you really fit that much music on a palm?

I haven't looked at Palms in a couple years. How much storage space does your average palmOS machine contain these days? Anyone familiar with the topic want to give some approximate numbers?

Re:um.

[p00kiethebear]

if your palm uses smartmedia or compact flash cards than you can store up to a gig of music depending on how much money your willing to shell out. more info here

Re:um.

[Anonymous Coward]

The memory space in palms, even from the early days, was based on 'cards'. The memory built into the palm unit is all addressed as card 0 (even though you could not remove this 'card' of memory without some soldering!) Palm did this because they envisioned a day when additional memory or other resources would be added to a palm.

With the 500 series, that day finally came. With the 500 seris, an additional card slot is available, card 1. (The same holds for the *VASTLY* superior Sony Clies, which use their memory stick technology.)

These cards in the M500-series can be up to about 32MB for the expensive ones. A recent break through in memory production might double this. (This is the same old story about memory!)

For the clie line, the memory stick cards can hold up to 128 MB. This of course will double in a short while.

This compares with about 16 MB max on card 0 for the M500 and clie NX series. Why is memory so limited on card 0? Well, it's all about battery life. The reason people like palm so much is that they sip batteries (or at least used to before color screens). You used to be able to go weeks between recharging. Even with color screens, you can go a week or so before a recharge becomes critical.

Since palms use trickle DRAM to keep memory fresh, 16MB of memory means that you need to keep draining the battery EVEN WHEN THE UNIT IS TURNED OFF. (The processor, however, is not using significant power in sleep or doze mode.) Not much power is used, but it adds up. Now, if you had 128MB of ram in a palm unit, all with trickle DRAM, the unit would have a fraction of its current battery life--enough to make the device a real nuisance! Some people might like much memory, but they probably would be using their battery to refresh unallocated parts of memory anyway.

So, palms tends to have small memory card 0, and have long battery life. Palm made the judgment that people need about 16MB. Sony came to the same conclusion. Somewhere, the marketing people talked to the engineers and UI folks about how much memory is needed, how often recharges would be needed, etc. etc. In fact, Palm is so strict about this that for the Zire (their $99 'entry' palm), they downgraded the memory to just 2MB (what they estimate you'll need for its intended uses) and nixed the color screens. The result: a unit that guards Palm's tail end market from competition from the cheapo Franklin pda-units.

Is this important? It is for many people. I know plenty of friends who own an iPaq, and they can only use the device full-out for part of a day. (If you are chained to an outlet, why not just cary a small vaio or something?)

So, yes, there's not much dram on a palm unit. But, there are non-volatile memory cards available, and they're getting cheaper.

That being said, it should be noted that palm is, in my opinion, a f*cked company. They've lost market share, from 90% to 50% and falling. And now, there's actually competition from many players. They actually did a _reverse_ stock split to avoid delisting.

Plus, they *ROYALLY* pissed people off with the M505-->M515 bug, and by failing to issue a recall on the 505s. Palm's only chance, in my opinion, is in the Palm OS 6. They promise that Palm OS6 will be for Palm what OSX is for Apple--revolutionary.

If it's not, they've got jack sh*t to offer, and will have to compete with Microsoft. They're toast!! Oh, one more thing. Why does *every* damn story have to link to even the most basic URL. Like when the link to a story in the Register, there's a link to the story.... and in case you have bricks for brains, they also have a bonus link to the Register home page. Moronic.

Ok, my pizza is finally here. I'm done babbling.

OK...

[Dr. Bent]

but does it support ogg? Otherwise I don't...oh wait....

Re:OK...

[ActiveSX]

A Tungsten T and some storage on an expansion card. And I thought my 2mb Visor would finally be useful :(

License? Source?

[FattMattP]

What is the license? Where is the source code? This isn't freshmeat.net so I hope there's something more significant than just a free ad for proprietary software.

oh great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I can listen to AC/DC on my PalmOS device's crappy little speaker...

Just what I wanted...

Re:oh great...

[ncc74656]

Now I can listen to AC/DC on my PalmOS device's crappy little speaker...

The Tungsten T has a headphone jack. That way, when you're stuck next to some Olde Pfarte on a transcontinental flight, Granny won't keel over and assume room temperature when you start playing "Back in Black."

IN SOVIET RUSSIA

[Anonymous Coward]

My comrade is named Ogg Vorbis!

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA

[Kenshin]

Not so, it seems they're following RMS' gay routine in calling it Ogg/Vorbis.

CPU speeds

[hazyshadeofwinter]

Palm machines aren't exactly known for fast CPUs, at least by desktop terms. This chart shows clock speeds from 16Mhz (Zire) to 66MHz (Sony Clie T665C), with most current units at 33Mhz. Now, I know clock speed ain't everything, performance-wise, but it kinda looks like most current machines won't be able to play much. Maybe spoken word stuff, which can get by with much lower bitrate & sample frequency, but forget ditching your iPod just yet...

Port the player to Linux for the Zaurus and iPaq, or even Pocket PC, and then yer talkin'.

Re:CPU speeds

[Anonymous Coward]

But as the author's website clearly states, this program is intended for Palm Tungsten T (PalmOS5) devices. The Tungsten T utilizes a 175mhz (clocked down to 145mhz) enhanced ARM-based CPU called the OMAP from Texas Instruments (I believe), and compares to a PocketPC device running PocketPC2002 on a 200mhz StronARM or 400mhz XScale processor.

It is plenty good for more than "spoken word stuff" ;)

Re:CPU speeds

[IHateEverybody]

The developer's page says that it was developed for Palm's latest model, the Tungsten T which uses 144 MHz Arm-based processor and a DSP.

I can't resist saying...

[Kunta Kinte]

that zaurus has had this for a while now ( also here ).

but it's still good to see it on the palm as well.

Re:If it runs on a Palm...

[Uller-RM]

The main stumbling block to Vorbis implementations was that the reference decoder was floating point intensive, whereas MPEG decoding can be done with mostly integers. However, there's now the "Tremor" reference decoder which uses purely integer math.

It's not really that difficult of a format. The only real oddity is that you have to buffer in the first few Ogg pages quickly in order to set up the codebook and other Vorbis headers, whereas MPEG uses discrete frames; but, once you've got the headers parsed, Vorbis is a relatively straightforward format.

Okay, who are you really?

[Tsar]

You're advertising this on Slashdot as a Palm OS app, but admit that it only runs currently on the Tungsten T. Your website only has one page, with no detail as to whether your product is open source or not. I can't find info about you or your application anywhere, even at your personal site, where you host your "free ogeLib Palm OS library". Who are you, is this for real, and how did you get it posted on the main page of Slashdot?

As for my fellow readers, has anyone actually downloaded and run this app?

Re:Okay, who are you really?

[loshwomp]

Who are you, is this for real, and how did you get it posted on the main page of Slashdot?

Three fair questions. Answers, respectively, are "a small collection of Palm OS and Vorbis enthusiasts", "yes", and "by submitting it here".

Free bonus information:

• No, it's not open source, although some of the as-yet-unreleased plug-ins will be
• The app itself is free as in beer (donations welcome, but let's wait until we're past beta first, if that's okay)
• It only runs on the Tungsten at the moment because it requires ARM hardware, and thus far Sony hasn't provided the audio API for the new NX Clies

Re:Okay, who are you really?

[puck01]

What about the other Clies like the n710c and n760c? They both play music, any hope they too might support ogg?

thanks,
puck

But does it play mp3's?

[bobobobo]

Ogg/Vorbis and all is great. But what I want to know is, can it play mp3's? :p

Re:But does it play mp3's?

[Trogre]

Ogg/Vorbis and all is great. But what I want to know is, can it play mp3's? :p

mp-whos?

Re:Quik Question... Kinda OT, but who cares =/

[obi]

If you mean reencoding from the original source (CD's) to ogg, well then ogg should be as good or better than mp3's.

If you mean reencoding your mp3's to ogg's, well then you're going to degrade them by a huge amount. The artifacts you had from the mp3 encoding won't magically dissapear just because you reencode to ogg - you lose information with every pass. So in the best case you'll have lost all the info that the mp3 and the ogg encoding throws away. But it's probably going to be even worse than that.

It's taking a jpeg and compressing it again in your favourite photo editor. It'll look like shit.

So, if you do it, be aware of it. And don't give those oggs to other people, since that way they'll get the impression that oggs sound intrinsically worse than mp3's.

Why no Clie support?

[AnimalSnf]

As one of many Clie owners (N760C) that visited that page, I am curious as to why I need to email some guy at Sony to be able to use this player. As far as I understand programs written for Palm 5 today are still compiled for RISC ISA, and the sound API on Clies is documented, so what's the holdup?

Re:Why no Clie support?

[Enfors]

I'm guessing that the deal is that Sony isn't releasing the specs of its Clie line, so the author can't make his application run on them. We're probably supposed to mail Sony to complain about this.

Please, enough already: Check out the link!

[0ptimus]

Let's clear up some things to stop the inundation of amazingly stupid posts. This software DOES NOT work on Palm's running OS 4 or below. It only runs on the new Tungsten T, which uses a 200Mhz ARM processor, and runs OS 5.0. The Tungsten T also includes expansion for memory cards, and has a headphone jack, making it quite useful for music. In fact, Palm is expected to release some sort of MP3 player for the device, but did not include one because it was not something "the target audience wanted."

So please no more of the "wow, decoding music with a 33Mhz processor would never work," "wow, I can hold two songs in my 8MB of RAM," etc., etc. comments. You are right, the old Palms WILL NEVER play music files; it is simply infeasible.

Re:Please, enough already: Check out the link!

[Skuto]

>So please no more of the "wow, decoding music
>with a 33Mhz processor would never work," "wow,
>I can hold two songs in my 8MB of RAM," etc.,
>etc. comments. You are right, the old Palms WILL
>NEVER play music files; it is simply infeasible.

Actually, I'm not so convinced.

The older Palms had shitty sound hardware, but it is possible to play at least WAV files on them. The quality sucks major, but it works nevertheless.

Disk space is also not a problem. Standard Vorbis will get down to 8kbps, which put quite a bit of files in 8M. I have written prototypes of new Vorbis encoders that will go down to 4kbps mono with pretty acceptable quality. This gets you a full album in 2M. Three albums at least on a 8M Palm.

The big issue is the CPU. Old Palms have a 33Mhz 68k processor. All that I have seen could be overclocked without risk to at least 45Mhz, and since we're pushing the limits of the hardware anyway, let that make us our target.

The question is if a 45Mhz 68k can decode a 6-8khz sample rate mono Vorbis 1.0 file. We're not looking for full Vorbis 1.0 compatibility remember, we just want to play those files, which have significantly less hardware demands than for example an 128k stereo 44khz Ogg. Since we're not going to need 16bits output either, you can make compromises in the decoder trading quality for speed. I have no idea if it is possible to decode Vorbis in this conditions, but I certainly don't think the answer is an 'obviously not' and I am currently investigating it.

--
GCP

Sounds cool... but little more is known

[Grey Fox LSU]

I think it sounds pretty cool and would love to try it, but it does not give any specs needed to run the player... Like what versions on Palm, processors.. etc etc

Regardless of speed, ram space; Still just a toy

[dagg]

Even if it wasn't for the issues with the speed and space needed to play Ogg/Vorbis music, noone is going to listen to music on their palm. Well... a few people will... the same people that take pictures with their Nintendo Game Boys.

--
Yer sex without your palm

Re:Regardless of speed, ram space; Still just a to

[Enfors]

Eh? Why wouldn't we? I pretty much always carry my Clie with me (which has built-in MP3 support, and a 128MB memory stick), so it's always right there in my pocket when I feel like listening to my favourite tunes.

Of course they can!

[Rob Simpson]

As long as music files are .wav

With a good memory card (like the 128meg one I use for medical references) and a good speaker (like my Handera 330's) or an earphone jack, there isn't any problem at all.

Of course, one would be able to store a heck of a lot more with a processor fast enough to decode compressed music, but it and the colour screen the thing would inevitably have would sap the battery life so much that it would be "infeasible" to finish playing all those music files.

Obligatory Simpson's quote

[Monkey-Man2000]

Now I can listen to AC/DC on my PalmOS device's crappy little speaker...

Just what I wanted...

Teen1: Oh, here comes that cannonball guy. He's cool.
Teen2: Are you being sarcastic, dude?
Teen1: I don't even know anymore.

Re:Lets see here

[IHateEverybody]

If you'd actually folow the link and read the page, you'd see that the application is made for the Tungsten T and reads the files off expansion cards. So it will run on the Tungsten (which has 16MB of RAM), read ogg files off SD expansion cards (which come in sizes up to 128MB), and you can use headphones.

PalmOS 5.0 only...

[OneFix]

Since this is only for the Tungsten T, this will only be available to the early adopters.

As for my Palm, I currently have no intention of getting rid of my Palm IIIxe. I know that alot of ppl are waiting for the Tungsten T to gain that "killer app" that they can't find on their old Palm (or in some cases Pocket PC)...

One of the biggest hurdles for the Tungsten T to overcome is the fact that HackMaster is not compatible with the new hardware. ~80% of the current PalmOS apps will work with the Tungsten T...or to put it another way, ~20% of the apps will not work with the Tungsten T...you can bet that 20% includes all of those popular hacks currently available for the Motorola-based Palms.

The price is also about $100 more than the same speed iPAQ with about twice the memory (4M ROM and 16M RAM vs. 32M ROM and 64M RAM)...This comparison was not valid when palms had 180x180 displays and low-quality sound...but with these new features (faster processor speed, 320x320 resolution, Color, and "high-quality" sound), owners will demand use of the higher resolution, Color (already available on some Motorola-based Palms) and higher quality sound...all of which slows the system and increases application size...

So, what's all of this mean??? I'm pretty sure that 16M is going to start looking pretty small when the new apps come along...

Re:PalmOS 5.0 only...

[Lumpy]

not really.

windows CE devices need the extra ram and rom because the apps are bloated because of the requirement to use Microsoft Dev Studio. which bloats the hell out of anything... microsoft libs are huge... visual C++ apps are gigantic and bloated and microsoft is pushing Visual basic for the pocket PC programming pretty heavy.

Microsoft based products NEED that extra ram and other space because the apps are 2-3 times larger than the SAME app in palmOS.

It's fine... I've had a 8 meg IIIx for over 3 years now and I have NEVER filled it up with useful apps and data (Yes including the 20 Project Guttenberg books) and wanted to install more I have crammed it full of games and gameboy roms before... but that isnt important... it's screwing around.

Re:PalmOS 5.0 only...

[0ptimus]

The one very important difference between Windows CE and Palm OS is that Windows CE works much like any other version of Windows. Files are loaded off of disk (in this case, a flash disk) and into memory to execute. Palm OS, on the other hand, designed for PDAs, knew that the actual files would be stored in memory on the device anyways, so it executes the program in place, with no need for additional RAM to load a copy of the program into.

That is why Palm's do not need the same enourmous RAM banks that CE machines have.

Re:PalmOS 5.0 only...

[Leeji]

Well, I poked Google pretty hard to verify your claims but couldn't find anything to corroborate it. However, I have the feeling that you're just pushing a line that somebody told you.

1) "Windows CE works much like any other version of windows"
True, that was its design goal
2) "Files are loaded off of disk"
Not implied by #1, but let's go with that.

I'm looking at my iPAQ right now. It's got 5.54 MB of memory used for currently running programs. I navigate over to my WinHack image, 2.45 MB of goodness. I run it, and now my iPAQ shows 5.86 MB of memory used for currently running programs. Loading WinHack used 320k.

Now, I've not taken the Pocket PC OS through a kernel debugger, but my results seem to contradict the broad, sweeping "+1, Interesting" statement you made.

3) "Palm OS ... designed for PDAs" The Pocket PC faq can help clear up some misconceptions.:
Q: What is Pocket PC?
A: Pocket PC is software for personal digital assistants (PDAs). ...
Q: Is the Pocket PC OS the same as Windows CE?
A: No. The Pocket PC OS is a custom version of Windows CE ...

Pocket PCs don't need these enormous RAM banks because of the reasons you give. They need them to support multitasking, voice recording, and the storage space that your MP3s require. They need them for the same reasons that Palm V users slap 64mb SD cards into their PDA.

Re:PalmOS 5.0 only...

[Leeji]

Thank you for an intelligent reply.

I didn't take your comment as an attack on Pocket PC, and I tried very hard to make my comment not attack Palm OS. What I found questionable was your statement that the Pocket PC OS loads the program into memory while the PalmOS does not.

When I loaded my 2.45MB WinHack image, you'd expect memory usage to jump fairly high. You'd expect this because WinHack loads its run-time data structures (which do not exist in any compiled program,) and Pocket PC also has to allocate memory for all of the services to support it.

I simply cannot believe that PalmOS doesn't allocate additional memory when you load a program. I'd like to see _ANY_ OS let you create runtime data structures without allocating memory to them.

However, let's say the 320k that the Pocket PC used to load WinHack was because of program loading differences. That doesn't explain the _need_ for 64mb of RAM. I'll say it again -- the 64mb is a feature. It's to hold voice recordings, MP3s, etc -- the same reasons you want a 64mb SD card on a Palm.

Anyways, if you have links to some more technical evidence, I'd love to read it.

As for the "Windows CE programs are bloated" comment, I think you just fell for a troll :) But, it started friendly debate, so perhaps the troll backfired.

Re:Palm memory?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the answer is: you shouldn't.

And you couldn't even if you wanted to. Palm's internal memory is used through a Palm-specific file system (PRCs and PDBs), and it can't handle "regular" desktop file formats. Hence, you CAN'T put an .OGG file into internal memory and use it as you normally would. You put these files on memory cards such as SDs and MMCs or with Sony devices, Memorysticks, and then use a program to access the files.

Re:License? Source?

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

" I hope there's something more significant than just a free ad for proprietary software."

You mean like the fileformat we all know and love finally getting some attention?
If this sells than corperations as a whole might take Ogg seriously, Which is undeniably a GoodThing(tm).

Re:So?

[Skuto]

Not really. Older Palms can do as well, although the sound is crappy.

--
GCP

Yes, 1.0 is much better

[Compact Dick]

Does anyone...know if there have been really improvements made? I last checked in RC3, and the sound quality was _definitely_ worse than MP3 at high bitrates.

Ogg 1.0 contains many improvements over RC3, not only in terms of quality but speed. The hi-fi forum hydrogenaudio.org has a running poll which shows most Ogg users encode at -q 6. This averages out at ~192 kbps and generally is indistinguishable from the original [unless you are of the monster-ear audiophile species.] You certainly won't miss anything with your sound setup.

Get the optimised win32 binaries [and OggdropXPd] from John33's website.

thanks, but no thanks.

[nuckin futs]

for $500 I can get the palm zire and a 10gig iPod. i'll just wait until the iPod supports ogg. With 10 gigs of space, just encode your music at 320kbps to get the same quality as ogg.

Re:License? Source?

[NDPTAL85]

Not everyone is a programmer. Some folks recognize the value of good proprietary software that does what it says it will do and comes at a reasonable price.

Remember, software licenses aren't grounds for holy wars for most folks.

Re:If it runs on a Palm...

[Uller-RM]

In theory, once you've got a floating-point PCM or ADPCM value, you can cast that out to any precision of integer you want -- the same blackbox decoder would work whether you were creating an 8-bit signal for a basic DSP or a 24-bit signal for a studio-quality DAC. (The latter is particularly relevant since Ogg can support more than two channels and can chain multiple segments in a single Ogg bitstream.) In theory you could even design a DAC to directly accept an IEEE 724 floating point number.

Decoding using the FP decoder and casting to, say, 16bit unsigned bigendian, should sound no different than decoding to the same point using Tremor. I haven't looked at any comparisons of algorithmic complexity for the two decoders, since the one project I'm working that uses Vorbis is using libvorbisfile.

(Or rather, the Mac OS X Framework version of it... the OSX-specific source in CVS is broken at present, but you can coax it into compiling with a bit of elbow grease. It also needs to have a Mac-specific gcc flag added to change the base address for the relocation table to allow prelinking. If anyone out there from vorbis.com is reading this, take those UNIX libs off the damned download page and get the Frameworks working -- most Mac users are NOT mentally equipped to su root and copy a bunch of .sos into /usr/lib!!)

No. Read previous posts

[haloscan]

This is for Palm OS 5 and currently is targeted for the only OS 5 PDA out right now--the Tungsten. The Tungsten has a 175Mhz processor and can handle mp3s and OGG fine.

Re:No. Read previous posts

[mliu]

FYI I believe the Sony Clie NX-90 should also qualify as an OS 5 PDA, as well as its lesser camera-less brother

Re:License? Source?

[FattMattP]

Remember, software licenses aren't grounds for holy wars for most folks.

True, but they are legal documents nonetheless. Before I agree to use software, I want to know under what terms and conditions I'm allowed to use that software. Given that it has no source code, and I've never heard of the company that made the software, how do I know that it doesn't do more than it says it does? What if it's set to somehow damage my PDA after a certain amount of time has elapsed?

Downloaded it.... Used it....

[WareW01f]

Wow, does anyone bother to try software before ripping on it? Here's my $0.02
I do in fact own a Tungsten T. I pulled down the PRC, (134k nice size) Dropped it on my Palm then tried dropping various songs on a tiny 16M SD I have from work. Found out quick that encoding with -b 64 was a no-no (crashed every time, but reset nicely by tapping 'reset' button on error window), but -b 96 works fine. Given this is a beta I can't say too much about the interface (could be a little sleeker)It read the Song title/artist OK. There is an option to blank the screen after 10 or 60 seconds (good) although once it blanks, I can't quite figure out how to get it back on (without stopping it, no so good) For those who don't know, the Tungsten T does have a headphone jack. The stereo worked fine. My only qualm is that the audio is rather muffled. (Not sure if this is Palm or the software.)

All and all, a nice first try. Fix the audio. Add an equalizer. Spiff up the look, and ship it! It is important to note that as an early Tungsten user/developer (I had a demo unit weeks before release) Palm has not, to date, been extremely easy to deal with when it comes to specs and the like. Working with ARM native code is still not very developer friendly. This is the first app I've seen that stresses the audio hardware (and the chip for that matter) and I think credit should be given where credit is due. Bravo for making this an OGG decoder and bravo for the early release. Keep the betas comming! (I myself have a reason to buy that 64M SD now!)

My objection is not based on challenging rights.

[jbn-o]

But since this dude did it for FREE, on his own dime, you have no right to demand anything.

It appears you and at least one moderator have grossly misinterpreted my parent post. Also, to address your concern directly, I am not demanding anything. I am encouraging people to continue to consider the pitfalls of becoming reliant on proprietary software. This is hardly a new line of argument, I admit, but it continues to be relevant.

In your words, I am suggesting people "leave it" because it suffers the same problem as any other proprietary software. I appreciate the widespread use of Ogg Vorbis but I do not want to give up my software freedom to use Ogg Vorbis and I don't want to encourage my friends to give up their software freedom either. I think it's unfortunate that some Slashdot participants are all too eager to throw away their freedom when someone dangles the right thing in front of them (e.g., when Sony, an MPAA member, releases a new notebook computer they'll buy one even though there are plenty of other good notebooks out there; if someone releases proprietary Ogg Vorbis software they'll buy and/or use it even though there is Free Software to do the same job). I encourage people to think beyond their immediate desires and not support those who try to work against what you know is better for you in the long run.

Sounds much better than having to deal with Real

[ncc74656]

Right around Comdex-time, Palm and Real made an announcement to the effect that RealPlayer would be coming to Palm OS in the near future. I was somewhat dreading installing this in order to add MP3 support. Once AeroPlayer gets MP3 support (supposed to happen RSN), it'll be a welcome alternative to letting Real 0wn j00.

(Ogg zealots can shut up right now...I have >10GB of MP3s on hand, and I'm not reripping/reencoding them.)

Re: Old Palm's

[bored]

So please no more of the "wow, decoding music with a 33Mhz processor would never work," "wow, I can hold two songs in my 8MB of RAM," etc., etc. comments. You are right, the old Palms WILL NEVER play music files; it is simply infeasible.

First, there are mp3 addon's for old Handsprings and Palm's for example . I'm sure there are smaller ones too.

Secondly, i'm not convinced that the base palm cannot decode mp3's the small memory footprint on the older palm's may be a problem, but I suspect that a mono 128k bit signal can probably be decoded on the 33mhz models. Look at Mayplay for an example of a mp3 decoder from the time when mp3s were just getting popular. I remember running it on a 486DX2-66 without any problems at all. I seem to remember it chewing up all my CPU time, but being able to decode stereo 128kbit mp3's.

Re:Software freedom is important.

[NDPTAL85]

Do you know everything your car is doing? Everything your stereo is doing? Your TV? Your computer hardware? You don't have the schematics to all of those things either. So what makes software so different?

When you talk about the "dangers of secrecy" in concerns to software, specifically a tiny MP3 Player you do not come across as anything but a crazy paranoid person who is sure everyone out there is out to get them and would were it not for your trusty tin foil hat. Software Freedom is NOT a legitimate movement. Its a game. Its not real. There are REAL causes out there. IMPORTANT ones. It really annoys me to see that this open source and free software contingent is the legacy of the hippies who began all this kind of thinking back in the Woodstock days.

Its time to put the "Rights" banner down.

[NDPTAL85]

The moderator was spot on. Life is short. Pretty soon AI's will emerge and computer usage will be completely changed forever. I don't want to waste what time we have left with the present PC paradigm waiting for open source applications to catch up to the features and quality that proprietary software has TODAY. I also don't want to get caught up in some quasi-legitimate political movement.

Couldn't geeks have found something better to support than "Free Software"? What was wrong with good old environmentalism or fighting against sweatshops in 3rd world countries? But now. Here in the rich west we have to fight for "Software Freedom". Something very few people care about now, and very few people will care about in the future. Its not like someday a statute to Richard Stallman is going to be erected in the future praising him for saving our rights to be programmers. MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT NOR EVER WANT TO BE PROGRAMMERS. Even if copy protection were to become successfully difficult to circumvent and become vastly wide-spread the overwhelming majority of people's lives would continue as they do today. No one is going to di if they can't copy a piece of software, a song, a video or a book. LIFE WILL GO ON, and it won't be bad. Except for the geeks that is. The whiny people who make up about one half of .005% of the world's population. Boo freaking hoo.

Some themes of socially progressive causes.

[jbn-o]

I don't want to waste what time we have left with the present PC paradigm waiting for open source applications to catch up to the features and quality that proprietary software has TODAY.

How ironic it is then that you're talking about an Ogg Vorbis player--a patent-free encoding scheme invented to provide a competitive alternative to a patented scheme that can not legally be implemented in Free Software.

Peruvian Congressman Villanueva probably doesn't want to wait either, so he's working on Bill 1609 to put Free Software into public administration in Peru. The German government is funding a Free Software replacement for Outlook. These are just a couple examples of the things non-programmers around the world can do to help the cause of Free Software.

Nobody is saying you can't choose which software you want or that you will die if you pick proprietary software, those are straw arguments. I'm saying it is more reasonable to increase the number of people who are allowed to know what's going on with the software you run. We should hold all proprietary software to the same high standard we currently hold Microsoft's (overwhelmingly non-free) software to. Proprietary software, no matter what its ostensible purpose, can do things you would not like it to do. In order to keep the software from doing these undesirable things, we all need to develop and maintain a network of people who will inspect, share, and modify software to suit our needs. Keeping people from understanding how the software works helps these undesirable features stay hidden.

Couldn't geeks have found something better to support than "Free Software"? What was wrong with good old environmentalism or fighting against sweatshops in 3rd world countries?

There is no need to choose just one cause. There are people working on Free Software, the issues you name, and many other socially progressive issues all at the same time. I happen to be adept with computers, I support the Free Software movement, and I work on multiple other socially progressive projects. I think these movements draw like-minded people because their opposites (anti-environment, pro-sweatshop labor, anti-Free Software) usually come as a result of putting more power into fewer unaccountable hands.

Another way in which the anti-sweatshop movement and the environmental movement are both like the Free Software movement is how they all encourage you to think beyond your immediate desires. Sweatshop labor produces cheap goods which are readily available. But sweatshop labor also means people are working very hard and not getting paid a living wage. The anti-sweatshop labor movement encourages you to think beyond buying goods strictly based on price and consider helping poor workers make a fair living. The environmental movement wants you to think more about the car you drive, your heating and cooling system, and the advantages of recycling (amongst other things). In the Free Software movement you are encouraged to think beyond your immediate desire for a particular piece of software (such as the Ogg Vorbis player in this thread) and consider using a Free Software replacement instead. All of these things take a little bit of foresight and a lot of hard PR work to get people to not blindly comply with the latest advertisement.

These causes are not unique in the amount of work it takes to make them practical: it's hard work to make people aware of things and aware of people beyond themselves. It takes a lot of time and effort to provide socially responsible substitutes (competitive fair-wage clothing, low-emission vehicles, and yes, complete free software operating systems). So each of these movements (and many others) want you to volunteer your time and expertise.

MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT NOR EVER WANT TO BE PROGRAMMERS.

That is true, but most people do not want the private information on their computer leaked via a security hole, and most people are unhappy to discover that the secrecy of proprietary software allowed "spyware" (as it is called today) to execute on their machine. We aren't all scientists who understand the finer details of the things we use every day, but that doesn't mean we can't understand that gas hog cars, high pollutant exhausts, certain refrigerants, garbage landfills, and proprietary software are all bad in the long-term.

The Free Software movement has responses to the challenges they face and they target all computer users with their message. The Free Software movement can certainly use help in making their message clearer to non-programmers and getting their ideas out in front of the public. I hope you'll read what the FSF has to say and help them focus their message to reach a wider audience. After having worked on a congressional campaign, I have experienced first-hand how difficult it is to get the media's attention for an ethically-based message. I imagine helping the FSF get their message in front of the public is no easier.

No one is going to di[sic] if they can't copy a piece of software, a song, a video or a book. LIFE WILL GO ON, and it won't be bad.

Ask Lawrence Lessig how bad it will be. He knows a lot about the connections of copyright law, media access, and dissenting opinion. He champions what he calls "free culture", an idea that is well worth hearing. Preserving the freedoms to communicate and increasing these freedoms to allow more dissent to be heard are movements worth fighting for. Criticizing works can require copying portions of works, so if copying is made unavailable, critique and dissent are far more difficult. This might not seem like a big deal to you, but it is to people who want to convey unpopular messages including: not wanting an infinitely long copyright term, not bombing Iraq, and stopping the war of sanctions against Iraq, and no more "software patents". I hope you'll become more politically aware and see the extant connections that govern your life.

Lets keep raw technology and social causes....

[NDPTAL85]

...separate.

I don't see how stating your opinion on the Iraq situation requires the freedom to view source code. You can scream from the rooftops all you want and no one will stop you.

The reason why its hard to get media attention for ethical causes is because most people don't care about them contrary to what you think. I have a lot of friends who use computers. They are not however as computer literate as the people here on Slashdot. I've told some of them about the spyware on their computers and none of them care one bit about their info being collected or their surfing habits being monitored. Not a one. And I didn't just ask 5 people about it.

I am not saying Free Software will go extinct. It will continue to exist. However it will remain confined to corporate back end use, ironically helping a lot of the very corporations you probably rail against, academia, poorer nations/households and young individuals going thru their rebellious/counter-culture phases and of course political activists. All of those combined will result in Windows still maintaining a 97% marketshare.

Free Software, in the GPL on the desktop sense, will never go mainstream.
If you cannot get the mass public to leave MTV to support local musicians instead, what makes you think you can get them to use OSS?
If you cannot get Americans to drive small dinky vehicles instead of their mighty masculine SUV's or downsize their households from their massive McMansions what makes you think they'll use OSS?

I am well versed in the FSF's politics. I live in Boston where the FSF is headquartered. I've even seen the hairy beast himself a few times. (Stallman). I simply reject their policies. I use the software that works best when I need it. I make no distinctions between OSS or proprietary. There is no one on this planet who will look after me better than myself. My immediate concerns are pretty much my only concerns. Those sweatshop workers, who would not have a job or means to buy food without our companies giving them work, must fend for themselves. We did it once, so can they. As for the environmental movement, I care about the environment too. I just don't believe all of the science environmentalists use is fully sound. Saying bad things will happen without adequate, peer reviewed facts, is not the same as it being true.

If a piece of proprietary software does something I don't want it to do, then I'll just stop using it and begin using a competing product. Competition provides us with choices within the proprietary world itself, not just between proprietary and open source. Given enough proprietary choices one will not be forced to resort to the "Free amatuer" products that best describe so many OSS projects.

If I want politics, I'll turn on CNN or MSNBC. When I want a tech product to do the job, I'll choose the best in concerns to practicality and not in concerns to some social agenda led by the FSF.