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UK Team to Study Rainmaking Machines
RobertB-DC writes "The BBC reports that a Edinburgh University team has received a grant to research Wind-Powered Rainmaking Machines. You have to have winds blowing towards a mountainous coastline, but the article says that the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf are well-suited. For a cautionary note, though, the BBC includes a link to the story of a 1952 cloud-seeding experiment gone terribly wrong."
Scotland needs more rain. After Scotland, France!
This is good news for my grant application to deploy a sand-making machine in Algeria.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Who wants odds on how long before weather is used as a weapon in war?
Or how long it takes before everyone but NATO is not allowed to fix their weather, as hurricanes are weapons of mass destruction?
visit the hwky website for a lyrical genius infusion.
...it's a beowulf cluster of Blackfoot indians in some sort of recursive dance.
the most mysterious thing you'll see today
We should avoid these sorts of experiments until we have a good understanding about how our weather works.
How ironic that British scientists are trying to develop ways to make even more rain than the country is blessed with getting (I suppose it gives us more reason to complain about the weather - although as a Brit in CT, I'm finding it bloody cold here).
I remember hearing years ago about how to stop clouds from raining over certain areas, by planes dropping concrete powder into the rain cloud that might disturb an outdoor event (or something that would be spoilt by rain). Although I can't vouch for the truth of this tale, but the first thing that sprang to mind when hearing this was of concrete clouds falling from the sky.
But then again, we all know clouds are held up in the sky by string.... all we need is more string and wind machines ;-)
Are you local? There's nothing for you here!
"People have been trying for many years to modify the weather, from tribal rain dances through to experiments in which small crystals were dropped into clouds to attract moisture."
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but to me the weather the past few years hasn't seemed quite normal to begin with. Floods and heavy rain where it normally doesn't rain much, tornados in odd parts of the country, lack of snow where there's usually plenty....So why would we want to modify it by adding extra moisture in the air and making it rain in places which normally receive little rain to begin with? What would be the effects a few hundred miles away? Really, what's wrong with normal irrigation? It works, and doesn't affect the weather.
But hold on, do we really want the weather to be run in a manner similar to such public services as the US Post Office or (shudder) the British Dental Service? I can see it now: some impoverished nation will be saddled with a National Department of Rain, complete with overpaid, slovenly employees and mounds of red tape, which will manage to get the rainclouds set up two days after the crops have all died, or right in the middle of a soccer game.
It is hoped that a private interest who might benefit from this technology, say a responsible, efficient agricultural conglomerate like Archer-Daniels-Midland, will be able to fund and deploy these rain-making devices, ensuring that plenty of water is available for all on an efficient market-driven basis. This would be a prime example of the kind of benefits globalization can bring to both the developed and developing countries of the planet.
Professor Salter told the BBC: "We are trying to break through the layer of rather stagnant, humid air...
Fitting, non?
More rain for you probably means less rain for some or all of your neighbors. Sorta like the USA frequently using up the entire Colorado River before it reaches Mexico, Saudia Arabia might just suck up a lot of the rain headed towards Iran. Bu you know, I doubt that that would cause any problems :)
North Devon experienced 250 times the normal August rainfall in 1952. [...] She recalls: "Mum identified her by this huge wart on her back because she hadn't got no head, or arms, or legs when they found her".
I hate to be skeptical, but... the article seems to imply that this rain making experiment caused all this water to suddenly fall out of the sky. But what makes my "bullshit" meter go off is whether there is that much water in the air in the first place. I mean, 250 times the normal rainfall? I could see if you had some natural storm system come in that just happened to have a ton of moisture, but just to create out of "thin air" (so to speak) that much water out of normal conditions just doesn't sound plausible.
Particularly since if it were that easy, we would never have droughts.
Something isn't adding up here.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Hrm...
If you force the rain to come down, NOW, RIGHT HERE, aren't you preventing the rain from falling on your neighbors? What if there is a drought and the neighbors need the rain?
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
If this cloud seeding really does work, and it's possible to generate up to 250 times the average rainfall for an area (as was the case according to the BBC report), then why the hell don't they test it in a place that wont kill anyone. You know, like, say the Australian outback, where 250 times the average rainfall won't pose a risk to population centres, and the scientists can test away to their hearts content 'till they figure out how to control the process.
Janie took my gun...
"authorization"? oh, please. It's a hundred foot tall tower with no complex moving parts. Anybody with access to windy coastland and some cash will be able to do this.
I'm more curious as to how this will affect land prices and the political games it will create.
Anybody care to take bets on how long it will be before some Friend O' Bush who owns very dry land in, say, Texas, gets the government to pay to build these on the closest bit of coast?
Rustin
Data is the lever, rigor the fulcrum, brains the force that drives it all.
That's why this new idea is interesting - it's an attempt to actually add moisture to the atmosphere.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
I share another posters scepticism - spraying as much silver iodide or ice as a plane can carry into the air created 250x normal rainfall out of nothing? Sure...
Australia has far more need of enhanced rainfall than Britain. There have been extensive trials by the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) and overall cloud seeding does not work.
To quote from a summary of CSIRO's findings: "CSIRO has shown that in Australia cloud seeding is effective only in a limited number of weather conditions. Cloud seeding will never break droughts; cloudless skies will never produce rain."
CSIRO have also produced guidelines for water managers considering trying cloud seeding. My take on their conclusion is: it won't work, save your money.
Are you thinking of the Red Sea or the Dead Sea?
The Red Sea may have salt, but so do the other seas
and the oceans.
www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
They're probably related to the idiots in California building multi-million dollars homes right at the very edge of the coastline.
I was just going through these posts to spend some of my mod points, and I was astounded at how few people had even given a cursory glance at the article. Unlike other experiments, which involve forcing existing atmospheric moisture (clouds) to precipitate into rain, the equipment proposed would actually add and create clouds from seawater. This is very different in effect, as it won't be taking moisture away from anyone else, but will rather just add a great deal of moisture to the whole region, which of course could have serious effects, both positive & negative.
I wonder what they're doing with all the salt.... it would build up wherever the water evaoporates, mebbe at the misting site? Seems like introducing that much salt into an area would be a problem.
Mod me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
In regards to the great flood of '52, I've got to repeat the old mantra.. "correlation does not predicate causality." (eg, "everyone who goes to the dentist dies")
..if even just 5% of our research science budget went to blue sky research, it would be a good thing (and IMO would pay back ++). If only our 'philosopher king' were less of a king and more of a philosopher...
It is very very hard to seed clouds. You've got to get the silver iodide (or whatever) concentration just right- too many condensation nuclei and all you get is suspended fog. Too few, and the dropplets grow too slowly (collision is a major growth process). There've been many attempts over the years, but it is really really hard to prove correlation in the wild.. (send refs if you know otherwise!)
Even if you can make clouds, it doesn't mean you make rain. At all.
Now if they could only figure out the upper reflection vs greenhouse effect balance, more clouds might help solve our global warming problem. Or make it much worse.
~.~
I'm a peripheral visionary.
I thought this was just something they did in the cartoons, but seriously - can you make it rain? If this shit happened like they say in the UK in the 50s, why dont they do this in Texas in the summer?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
I have to say it: after we're gone, the roaches will still rule.
Oddly enough something similar occurred in Rapid City on June 9m 1972. Stories from the NWS and MPR.
Someone explain to me why every member of the British group wasn't round up and shot for gross negligence?
Also, I read that in order to use laser guided bombs in Kosovo, they had to use cloud dispersing techniques that resulted in horrific hailstorms in other parts of the Balkans. Unfortunately I read this three years ago and can't find any references to it... anyone?
[o]_O
Wouldn't that increase the salinity of the water, which might be bad for sea life, but could also alter currents if the denser water sank?
running joke i think. Still Willow-the wisp is
real and caused by traces of phosphorous hydrides,
which spontaneous ignite in air, lighting methane
gas from swamps. Its very beautiful if you get
a chance to see it. Watch out for the Moug though.
I noticed that it usually rains right after I wash my car or start planning a golf game. Thus, simply have 1000 people wash their car or plan a golf game right before the desired rain.
Table-ized A.I.
It's a nice idea. Not enough water comes from the oceans to the air in many parts of the world. The air a few meters above the sea has a potential of a few kilovolts when the waves have white caps. People have theorized that this stops a lot of mass and momentum transfer between the sea and the air. This is the first mechanical solution I have heard about. But there are bugs like Legionnaire's disease that like sprays of warm, damp air. Expect the unexpected, folks...
Actually cloud seeding does work in Australia. Hydro Tasmania has been undertaking cloud seeding trials since 1964.
e di ng/faqs.html
Check out the faq at
http://www.hydro.com.au/renewableenergy/cloudse
The purpose of the cloud seeding is to increase rainfall in the catchment areas of hydro electric dams. Increased rainfall in these areas reduces the need to use supplementary energy sources, i.e. conventional oil fired power stations which tend to be rather expensive.
Needless to say farmers are less than impressed with these trials. They attribute unusually dry conditions experienced in the last few years on the east coast of Tasmania to these trials, claiming that Hydro Tasmania is stealing their water.
>Incidentally, the locals refer to non-locals as grockles.
Another term used is "emmet" which also means "ant".
Emmets & Grockles
Matt
Why go to all the trouble of making this massive, errr, "thing" to scoop up sea water when we know that just sprinkling the clouds with silver-iodide and salt (or whatever it was in 1952) works effectively.
Well, it could just be because you can't sprinkle clouds with anything when there are no clouds there to begin with.
This system is making the clouds.
"Information wants to be paid"
The operative word here being 'Mad', of course.
Good video, though not as good as the one for "Babushka"...
"Information wants to be paid"
Are you being sarcastic? I certainly hope so. Traditionally, people have been building their houses in valleys! I don't know why, maybe perhaps it is easier to travel there - going up hill every day is not very easy when you have to walk. Remember that most communities had been established before the advent of the automobile.
I miss my rubber keyboard.(Homepage)
Pan to Dr. Canuck in his secret hideout atop Tim Hortons:
I think the point is that a cloud very rarely rains until it no longer exists, instead, it rains slowly in patches, sheding it's load over a very wide area. With cloud seeding instead the cloud becomes rain very much quicker, so covering a much smaller area, hence flash floods
Many think the Rapid City flood in 1972 was triggered by a cloud making experiment gone wrong.
m os phere&Climate/05c-Lecture.htm
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/unr/iwe/1972/
"In a 6-hour time frame on June 9, 1972, a rush of water poured through Rapid City and canyons in the surrounding area, destroying homes, vehicles, businesses, bridges, and claiming 238 lives."
http://www.rbs2.com/weather.htm
"Lunsford v. U.S., 418 F.Supp. 1045 (D.S.Dak. 1976), aff'd, 570 F.2d 221 (8thCir.1977).
There was a flood in Rapid City, South Dakota on 9 June 1972 that killed 283people and caused extensive property damage. Plaintiffs alleged that the flood was caused by an experimental cloud seeding program operated by the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology, under contract to the U.S.Government."
http://www.sciencescene.com/suckley/evs105/05At
that the Chinese are planning to use rain/anti-rain making technology for the Olympics? I remember hearing that in the mainstream media. Here's a link
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
Professor Salter told the BBC: "We are trying to break through the layer of rather stagnant, humid air that's at the very, very bottom of the atmosphere, in contact with the sea surface, and lift large volumes of water through this and squirt them out from 10 metres up in the air as a very fine spray, with a very big surface area."
This is creation, not theft. They are taking moisture from the sea and putting it in the air. As all that water will end up back in the sea and the chances that this project will lower sea level are nil, no one has lost anything. Those who feel the rain will have gained much.
If ten meters is all you need, I would try chimneys to suck the moist air up. No moving parts, cheap to prefabricate, easy to errect.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Opposed to impoverished nations saddled with Red Cross famine relief agents?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Link. Apparently Tesla may also have come up with something like radar in WW1 as well. Very strange.
TANSTAAFI: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free iPod.
Why go to all the trouble of making this massive, errr, "thing" to scoop up sea water when we know that just sprinkling the clouds with silver-iodide and salt (or whatever it was in 1952) works effectively.
Actually you can't draw that conclusion.
It rained on Exmoor after cloud seeding experiments. We have no way of knowing if it would have rained at all in the absence of such experiments or if it would have rained equally heavily.
That time of year in the UK is strongly associated with cloud bursts. This could have been a perfectly natural event, albeit on the upper end of the scale.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Best wishes,
Mike.
I want them working with me on my next grant proposal. Someone who can get a Scottish university interested in creating more rain could sell anything!
Best wishes,
Mike.
At a guess it was inspired by the wacky Vortex Rainmaking Cannon of the late 19th Century as used in the Australian Outback to try and break periods of severe drought.
From memory these were dirty great guns that pointed directly skyward. They carried a charge, but no shell. The idea was to create turbulence in the atmosphere which would create clouds and then rain.
They were a dismal failure.
Best wishes,
Mike.