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Windows Refund Day II
pbody writes "Sorry if this is rehashing an old topic, but I was looking for advice on how
to try to get a refund for the copy of XP that is coming with the laptop I
just bought when I came across this on LinuxJournal
about windowsrefund.net. They are
organizing "Windows Refund Day II" on January 23, 2003 -- which coincides
with the LinuxWorld Expo in NYC. Knowing how the first refund day turned
out, how many out there are going to the Expo and are thinking about
participating? For that matter, has anybody had any luck at all getting a refund from a vendor lately?"
I really don't get the people that are in a huff over this. You've seen from past examples that Microsoft and the OEMS aren't going to honor that EULA, and frankly, more power too them. Its just going to tick people off so much that they either build their own (which is the real solution to this problem) or go with a reseller that wil provide whatever OS you feel like running (there are plenty out there).
I can phone up tomorow, cancel it and get a pro-rata refund.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
a manufacturer that pre-installs windows on their machines is not the devil for it. like it or not, most people use windows, and its good business practice to be able to pre-install it and probably cut the end user a little bit off the price of paying for the os retail.
not everyone likes linux and mac. not everyone can build machines. most people dont like the attitude on this web site, cuz its so intolerant. its time to quit bitching and understand that the world does not need to "be freed from microsoft."
by the way, before you get a chance to reply with all sorts of snide remarks, i built my two machines and i run linux (gentoo) and windows xp. peace.
I don't wan't to sound un/.y, but is it really fair to expect a refund for the OS when you buy a computer package? When you buy a computer from some manufacturer you don't come back with just your graphic card and demand a refund because you don't like it. Or when you buy a car, you don't return the rearbumper just because you don't like the brand of it (no auto makers don't make every part themself.) You can't demand a refund for the nVidia GPU on the Gainward card because you want an ATI chip on it. It's a package deal. You bough a package, knowing what's in it and if you're going to get a refund you'll need to return the whole package, except if it's broken. If you don't like the parts in a package you've baught you replace them yourself. You knew exactly what you were getting.
Look a monkey!
The problem that I see for you is that you accepted the purchase of XP when you purchased the laptop. You knew what you were getting, and you elected to pay for it. If you felt that the configuration did not match your needs, then why did you make the purchase? Would you buy a set of screwdrivers and then try to return the sizes you don't need? Do not burden the vendor with your own decision to purchase something that did not match your needs. They delivered exactly what they said they would.
There are vendors that will sell a laptop with Linux installed. There are major vendors that will sell you a laptop without an OS. You have to call them and specifically request it - you won't find it on their website.
To the slashdotters who are saying 'Just build your own, or go to reseller X instead', the poster is talking about a laptop. Building a laptop yourself is an excersize in futility, and once you have your eye on a certain laptop, say a Sony Viao or IBM Thinkpad, that's what you want. One shouldn't have to go with some lame brick laptop just because it came without an OS. So getting the laptop you want, without the MS tax is something that can't be solved with the 'Build it yourself or shop elsewhere' attitude. Microsoft should be help accountable for what is in their (possibly) binding EULA. MS is treating their EULA like the Bible, sticking to the parts that benefit them and ignoring the rest. That's complete nonsense and they should be held accountable!
God is real unless declared integer.
Don't you have to have the original disc/disk packaging sealed for this to work?
The wording is such that if you don't agree with the licensing agreement, you can return the package unopenned for a refund. If you open it, you can't return it. I presume that if it's windows 3.1 or DOS, the package would have been openned. At the very least in the case of DOS, since they always factory installed that.
As for getting the refund, I'd never even tried getting it from MS, but many smaller mom&pop shops will cross off the Windows line on the invoice and give you a discount if you don't want windows. The discount isn't quite as high as you might think though -- They only offered $30 (Canadian) off if I didn't want winXP. Considering that the shop across the street was (illegally, I guess) selling OEM winXP for $110(Canadian) I had expected more.
IMO, it's not really worth the bother if it's only going to be $30.
[MS] If you sell just our OS you can have them at $20.00 each.
[Dell] Ok.
[Techie] Dell, will you give me a refund for this unused OS at full market value?
[Dell] No.
[Techie] MS, will you give me a refund for this unused OS at full market value?
[MS] Uh, no.
[Techie] I can't figure out why these guys won't budge...
The difference is that a graphics card doesn't come with an EULA that says you can return it for a refund if you don't agree to the ludacrisp (heh) terms.
What many people assume is that you want to install Linux on a laptop. What if I own a copy of Win2k, and don't want XP? I should be able to return XP and install my own copy of Win2k. It isn't all about Linux.
And part of what ticks people off is that they PAY for an OS that they are being forced to purchase. Microsoft has made sure that OEMs include a MS OS in the price by charging them whether they sell you one or not. Sure, you can say "then don't buy from them" but as long as the EULA exists and it says you can return it, people should do it. Not only that, you don't even get a full copy of the OS to do with as you please. If they gave you a full version, instead of those insane recovery disks, you could at least sell it or give it away.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I could not buy the vehicle without buying the radio
Bet you could. You just didn't want to wait for one to be built and shipped from the factory. Or you could've purchased a model with an improved radio.
Likewise, my townhome came with really terrible, contractor grade windows
Did you buy the townhome from the builder? If so then you could've opted to pay for a window upgrade. If you bought it from a previous owner, well, duh.
Oh, you didn't want windows at all? Sorry, that's not up to code and would be illegal.
Finally all the Macs in my organization run one flavor of Mac OS or another. I could not buy these things without Mac OS. Maybe I can convince Steve Jobs to give me $100 for each copy of Mac OS I don't use?
You just said you're using them. Make up your mind.
Face it, bundling is prevalent every where you look
Yes, but when you get charged for the bundled item even when you don't receive it then it's illegal. Particularly when a judge says "that's not a legal contract".
Frankly, a better comparison is being charged for lettuce, tomato, and pickles on a hamburger when you ask for them not to be put on. It's a customary practice in the US. The only difference I can think of is that the tomato, et. al. don't compromise 10-20% of the overall cost.
You're right - the OEMs are just making money, not playing ideology.
However, as I recall, years ago, you could get an OS-less PC from Dell. This was before M$ started strongarming companies, saying "put windows on everything you sell, or NOTHING." Obviously, from then on, OEMs sold windows on everything (this much is documented in the antitrust case).
Point is, are the OEMs basically refusing to sell OS-less PC's because it's convenient, or through fear? I know Dell will for some business clients, because usually they have a win site-license (could be mistaken about the details). However, they won't do it for just anyone.
I know it's hard to custom-make computers when you sell a jillion of them, but Dell does *some* tailoring of computers - it seems like formatting the HDD's of those pre-installed computers would not be that difficult to integrate into their business model. That's why I think there's still some fear of M$ involved.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
The difference...
The windows in the house were chosen by free choice. The contractors could buy whatever window best fit the need and at the best price, from a number of competing vendors.
If Corning were to say to the contractor: "We'll give you a discount if you only sell houses with Pfister plumbing", there'd be an outrage!
If I were having a house built, I could easily ask for "only Corning glass" or "only Dia glass" and the Contractor would simply nod, and order Corning or Dia glass.
But, many computer vendors CAN'T nod because they've signed agreements to "only sell houses with Pfister plumbing" (Windows).
They had to - since MS has a monopoly on desktop O/S's, they've been able to force these kinds of deals.
This whole refund day is about trying to effect or at least highlight the need for positive change.
It's not about bundling, it about the un-natural lack of diversity in the available bundles, forced by MS on the industry.
If you can't see that, you are clueless.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Modded as interesting?
I bought my VW Golf two years ago, and i'm very pleased with it, except for that crappy in-dash radio they MADE me buy. I could not buy the vehicle without buying the radio. Maybe we can organize a Factory Radio Refund Day?
When I bought my car, Ford offered a radio credit option, give them back the radio and they give you $500. I do not know if that is still an option though. Another point, you can take that radio out and sell it seperately from the car. You can put that radio in another car. You can take that radio apart and do what you want with it after you bought it.
Likewise, my townhome came with really terrible, contractor grade windows. I hate them. I was not allowed to buy the townhome without these windows. Maybe I can get my money back for them as well?
When building a house, you can choose any window you want, in a townhouse that is not an option. You can negotiate a selling price on that house based on your assessment. Cheap windows = cheaper price and the same things apply here as above, you can sell and modify those windows after you replace them with new ones.
There are many things in the real world that are sold as itegrated and some not. In my view, computer software is not and intergral part of computer hardware and should be allowed to be seperated, after all, the MS EULA specifically says you can get a refund of unused software, imagine VW claiming you could get a refund on the radio but you not being able to actually get it? That is the issue here. Considering those MS licenses are a larger % of the total cost it makes it worse
I guess buying a brand new car but requesting that they remove the glove box door and 2 of the four spark plugs because you don't want to pay for them is a little unrealistic, comparing that to completely removing MS software is not the same.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
If you're in the US, why not take 'em to small claims court?
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
Before you go and ship your copy of XP back to anybody for a refund, be sure the company that it to you will support your system if you have any problems. I have a laptop from one of the largest computer vendors in the world, and it came pre-installed with XP. It turned out that it had a hardware problem, it has some bad memory. I used some dianostic tools and indeed confirmed that it was a hardware problem. When I tried to call them up to get this fixed it did not go well.
Basically what it boiled down to is that they refused to provide any service under my warranty unless I ran the operating system that came with the laptop. I asked the guy, "is my warranty effectively invalid if I run Linux?". He said that, unfortunately, that was, in essence, the case.
So, just a word to the wise that if you don't install XP on your system, you may in fact be making your warranty irrelevent even for hardware specific problems.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I bought my VW Golf two years ago, and i'm very pleased with it, except for that crappy in-dash radio they MADE me buy.
Did it come with an EULA that stated someone else could break into your car any second, watch what you have in the back, and possibly break your car if needs be? Or maybe delete that non-standard wheel that you added, because "oh, that may be used for racing!"?
So if you don't agree with that EULA you must take your stereo out of your car inmediately, but wait, that VOIDS the cars warranty and any customer support you could have gotten.
So in brief, bought a car and afterwards found out it came with a "bonus" that you CAN'T accept, but that will void your warranty if you don't accept. So eventually, the EULA of the car stereo may state that all you agree that all you bank accounts now belong to X BENEFICARY, and if you don't like it, you lose your warranty or whatever: they could even state that since you have already used the car, you can't return it now, because the warranty is void. And if you reinstall the stereo just to be able to get a refund, they could say they don't allow for refunds, only repairs.
Moreover, even in the case you don't give a damn about the warranty (or whatever is it that you are losing the rights to) and you agree not with the EULA of the stereo, and take it of the car, you still can't:
1) sell it
2) give it away for free
Maybe it could be posible that you can't even though it out of the street safely (that could be seen as promoting some else to use it). And even if you dispose it properly (say you bury it in the ground) and someone finds out, and they can check the serial number of the stereo and conclude you gave it away to somebody else and claim lost sales because of your actions.
Now replace stereo with Software and car with Computer and see if it's true or not. Ok, it's an extreme example, but goes to show your analogy is really failed.
unfinished: (adj.)
The whole "Windows Refund Day" is not about bundling. Yes, Microsoft, or any other vendor/manufacturer is perfectly free to bundle their software on your spiffy new PC, just like VW is free to bundle crappy stereos with their cars.
Where the important difference comes in is a quasi-legal contract called the End User License Agreement which you must agree to be bound by if you wish to use the software. 99% of the population don't read them and simply accept them. I suggest you take an afternoon some time and comb through one. The highlights of a typical EULA are this:
Frankly, I doubt your VW Golf, or your townhome came with such an agreement. (Your Mac is a different story, since EULAs are a standard practice in the software industry...although I am not familiar with Apple's EULAs, I suspect they have a similar clause.
The whole idea behind the Windows refund day is to illustrate that not even the software manufacturers pay any heed to their own EULAs. It's not about Microsoft-bashing, they just happen to be a very convenient target for too many reasons to list here...
I just want to take over the world...Why does that automatically make me EVIL?
In the case of computers, that demand is provably there, as several manufacturers do sell reasonable quantities of computers without operating systems, and the cost of doing so is low.
Whether or not the OS or the computer "do much" without the other isn't relevant. A card doesn't "do much" without fuel, yet you don't consider a car and fuel to be one product and allow the auto industry to sell cars bundled with a lifetime supply of petrol. In fact, if GM tried that, their dominant position in the US car market would mean they'd instantly get slapped with an antitrust lawsuit for violation of the tying provisions in US antitrust law if they tried a stunt like that.
Actual laws regarding tying wary quite a bit between countries, but I'd be willing to be you'd be unable to find any country where the courts wouldn't agree that a bare computer and an OS are two separate products.
Whether or not you deserve a refund, however is more complicated than that. In the Windows case, your purchase is essentially defect unless you agree to contract terms (Microsofts EULA) that you likely weren't informed about at the point of purchase). Defect in the way that you will be unable to legally use a part of the bundle that you paid for (Windows). Again, depending on where you live that may give you the right to a refund for the OS, or it might "only" give you a right of refund for the whole system, or if you're unlucky none at all.
However all of this is a digression from the point of the message you replied to. My only point was that believing that manufacturers are free to include whatever they want is naive. There are lots of regulations restricting what manufacturers may do - in particular with regards to tying of products that there is separate demand for as long as they don't offer the products unbundled as well.
I still don't buy the "they cannot bundle" argument, but the EULA argument is compelling. I could find a copy of the Win95 handbook that came with my old laptop. On page 1 there is the EULA. It says:
So, they promised a refund. They should comply.
Ciao
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FB