MS Proposes Disclosing Windows Source To India

raghuram writes "Interesting news from Economic Times of India, I found an interesting story, Microsoft Planning to Share Code with India." He excerpts from that article: "Microsoft has already made a proposal to the ministry of information technology (of India) for sharing the Windows source code with one government body. The nature of the body has not been spelt out; it will presumably be worked out after discussions between the company and the government officials. Interestingly, the offer comes at a time when state governments are showing interest in rival Linux operating system as the latter's source code is free and downloadable from the internet."

Comments

Running scared

[Jucius Maximus]

Here is a link to the actual article .

It sounds like Microsoft is running scared now. They realise that India is a powerhose because it has way more people (population) than the United States.

India seems to be tilted toward linux right now and if the linux movement there gets into full swing, the momentum will be very, very hard for Microsoft to stop.

I hope the Indians look to the long terms effects of the windows and linux paths, as opposed to short terms benefits.

Re:Sweet...

[TheWhaleShark]

6 hours? The minute this was announced, the source showed up in sidewalk kiosks in China.

Re:Wild...

[Cyclometh]

In general, they're already paying for it (at least the goverments are, and I don't know how bad the piracy problem is in India...)

I think what's got Microsoft talking opening their source to the Indian government is that India and some other nations have been making noises about switching to open-source OSes. Maybe this is the first of several overtures to fractious governments.

Microsoft, after all, can offer some pretty tasty carrots with their sticks...

Sweet... 'n Sour

[RobertB-DC]

Sweet: If Windows source is made available in India and becomes available worldwide.

Sour: If Windows source is already available to selected developers right here at home, why hasn't someone leaked it?

My understanding of "Shared Source" was that Microsoft shows you theirs if you promise not to tell what it looks like. I naturally assumed that with the code being such a closely held secret, that it would be on the newsgroups before you could say groups-dot-google-dot-com.

But then, it may just be my ignorance showing... I'm just a VB coder staying away from the bleeding edge -- in order to provide my clients with code that works the same way each time.

Re:Sweet... 'n Sour

[Dark Lord Seth]

why hasn't someone leaked it?

Looking into the source code might require signing a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) that states that all financial damages which occur due to leaking the source can be reclaimed on the person who signed the NDA. It can't be that hard to hide some obscure hex value in a constant in some unimportant part of windows which can be traced to people who have access to the sources. Also, do you think MS would give it's source code to companies that are against MS?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

India: don't fall for it

[dh003i]

Don't fall for that MS crap-trap. They might give you the source, but with a shit-load of draconian circumstances and catches that will make it unuseable.

Even if they do give India the source, it'll only be temporary -- for now, to prevent them from switching to Linux. Once India is dependant on MS, it'll be no more source and no more cheap-deals for them.

They don't specify the version...

[BuhSnarf]

... it could be Windows 3.11 that they're gonna release the source for.

Tainted code

[serps]

So, Microsoft is offering show the Windows source to India, potentially tainting a 15% of the world's population with their intellectual property?

I can't think of a better way to manufacture thousands of Windows developers while at the same time denying Open Source access to a billion people.

let me ge this straight ...

[dlasley]

... they aren't willing to share source code in the U.S. for "security" reasons, but they are willing to pass on the source code to a country in the midst of a volatile conflict with a growing nuclear weapons program ...

and so now it's friday the 13th per GMT. maybe this is a fitting time to run the story ...

Re:You'd like that

[tomhudson]

And how much do you want to bet some of it will end up in the next kernel release? </quote>

The real reason is to make sure that developers who see their source code can't later work on open-source projects without "polluting" the open-source project. I will never look at M$ source code, for that, among other, reasons.

But could you imagine the damage if M$ was successful in claiming that their code ended up in a linux kernel? Or apache? or php? or perl? or gcc?

I just wonder...

[edashofy]

Why has the Windows Source Code, arguably the most valuable piece of source code in history, never been leaked? Certainly, as others have said, people have it. Or parts of it. The distribution methods are out there (Gnutella, Freenet, Overseas servers). Once this genie gets out of the bottle, it couldn't ever be stoppered back in. So why has there been ten or fifteen years of Windows with no source leaks?

I mean, if the atom bomb got out, which has only a fraction of the destructive power of Windows (just kidding), then why not Windows?

Has it been:
- People are too scared of Microsoft to do it, even with anonymizing technology?
- Microsoft's security is just that good?
- ???

Re:I just wonder...

[WhaDaYaKnow]

Why has the Windows Source Code, arguably the most valuable piece of source code in history, never been leaked?

I'll give you some answers. I won't go into details of me personally, which you hopefully understand after reading this but here's the few personal things I _will_ say:

- I worked for M$
- I was not a developer
- I had full access to the source of a Windows version (it was not an NT/2K/XP variant, the source was available to everyone on the M$ network who knew where to find it)
- this was several years ago, things have changed, no doubt

Now, back to answering your question. First of all, some common sense answers:

- because it would be illegal?
- because they are not anti-M$?
- because it doesn't occur to them that it would be a 'good thing' to do?

I'll take your suggestions backwards:

Microsoft's security is just that good?

Obviously not.

People are too scared of Microsoft to do it, even with anonymizing technology?

Exactly, I think your question answered that already quite nicely when you said "arguably the most valuable piece of source code in history"

with all that in mind someone would consider:
- who would want to risk a reasonable career, for exactly what?
- who knows if my access to the source is watermarked?
- as someone suggested with the analogy of the Coke formula: is it really that unique that it's worth risking anything for? (believe me, it's not. In fact you CAN look at large pieces of M$ source, just go download a DDK)

Now, from what I have seen, there _is_ some evidence that could have helped the DOJ case regarding the non-competitive stuff with DR-DOS which can be found in the source.

This may have been a valid reason for someone to leak it, but the question is, would you trust the government or anyone enough to protect you so that you can continue the live that you want to have, after you did?

Or even more importantly, should the government be able to get and find this information by it's own, legal, resources?

I think it's a tough choice to risk an already way too short time as a productive developer to deal with lawsuits and what not.

Just a few thoughts ;-)
(I trust Rob to provide the "anonymizing technology")

Re:Sweet...

[Captn Pepe]

And here you have the conspiracy-theorist motive for such an action: MS isn't afraid of India switching to Linux, but of the millions of engineers India turns out becoming millions of open source Linux programmers. But if MS can ensure that they will all have seen the Windows sources at some point, then they'll never again be able to contribute code to any major project, lest MS get all litigious about the possibility of misappropriated code. Might not win in the courts, but raise your hand if you'd like to see a federal judge slap a preliminary injunction on any distribution of the Linux kernel until the mess is sorted out!

True? Nah, likely not. Would it work? Just possibly. We've all heard about Samba developers who treat MS code like a toddler running around with ebola milkshakes (cover eyes and run).

IBM counters Bill Gates "gifts" to India

[Locutus]

I read this morning that IBM was offering some incentived to India to go Open Source instead of Closed Source( ala Microsoft ).

http://in.news.yahoo.com/021212/43/1z0mv.html

I think IBM realizes what's at stake here and is willing to put more $$ where it's mouth is. That's gotta piss Bill and Steve off.

LoB

Nothing to do with Benevolence

[LINM]

We have been working on institutions in India and they are heavily leaning towards adopting Linux. Microsoft sales teams have been bending over backwards to prevent them from taking the plunge. The recent donations of funds as well as the offer to share the code all amount to last ditch attempts to keep Linux out.

These are all for good reason. Not only will one massive lost market initate several others, but India also represents a leading software high-tech zone that Microsoft does not want to lose. Think of the number of Linux programmers that would be learning to work on a real platform in five year if the government does not 'sell out' to this US monopoly.

I can't disclose really any more than this, but expect more concessions from the Redmond Giant before all is said and done. Hopefully India's Linux initiatives have not been just to facilitate dealing with M$.

Microsoft's dike is springing many holes. Thiy might fill this one, but products like the one below will be taking serious bites out of MSFT in the coming months...

http://www.distrowatch.com/review-xandros.php

Re:Sweet...

[Anonvmous Coward]

"6 hours? The minute this was announced, the source showed up in sidewalk kiosks in China."

Actually it was Linux with a Windows logo set as the wallpaper.

I wonder

[inode_buddha]

if this may be related somehow to this recent announcement regarding IBM's recent software initiatives in India. On a slightly related question, how would any of this relate to the recent rumors of both IBM and MS vying to purchase Rational and Borland? My take is this: IBM may be the number 2 software vendor, but as a company MS knows they could be choked on for breakfast in terms of sheer scale as reflected in US dollars. Upon reading about the recent sentiments in India, my vote goes with Big Blue.

[ My Friend Got The Code Already! ]

[ekrout]

/* Source Code Windows XP */
#include "win31.h"
#include "win95.h"
#include "win98.h"
#include "workst~1.h"
#include "evenmore.h"
#include "oldstuff.h"
#include "billrulz.h"
#include "monopoly.h"
#include "backdoor.h"
#define INSTALL = HARD
char make_prog_look_big(16000000);
void main()
{
while(!CRASHED)
{
display_copyright_message();
display_bill_rules_message();
do_nothing_loop();
if (first_time_installation)
{
make_100_megabyte_swapfile();
do_nothing_loop();
totally_screw_up_HPFS_file_system();
search_and_destroy_the_rest_of-OS2();
make_futile_attempt_to_damage_Linux();
disable_Netscape();
disable_RealPlayer();
disable_Lotus_Products();
hang_system();
} //if
write_something(anything);
display_copyright_message();
do_nothing_loop();
do_some_stuff();
if (still_not_crashed)
{
display_copyright_message();
do_nothing_loop();
basically_run_windows_31();
do_nothing_loop();
} // if
} //while
if (detect_cache())
disable_cache();
if (fast_cpu())
{
set_wait_states(lots);
set_mouse(speed,very_slow);
set_mouse(action,jumpy);
set_mouse(reaction,sometimes);
} //if /* printf("Welcome to Windows 3.1"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 3.11"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 95"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows NT 3.0"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 98"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows NT 4.0"); */
printf("Welcome to Windows 2000");
if (system_ok())
crash(to_dos_prompt)
else
system_memory = open("a:\swp0001.swp",O_CREATE);
while(something)
{
sleep(5);
get_user_input();
sleep(5);
act_on_user_input();
sleep(5);
} // while
create_general_protection_fault();
} // main


(Hehe. Code courtesy of this funny site and reproduced here for your enjoyment.)

Re:Wild...

[vsprintf]

Really, what would you want the code to Windows for? There are already bootleg binaries for those so inclined. The source code for all that bloat has to be reams and reams of bad hackery, worse patches, and blatant bandaids.

I suppose there would be the humor factor of being able to point out the lines that say,

// Leave commented out until appeals are over.
// remove( "C:\Program Files\Netscape\Netscape.exe" );

Re:Sweet...

[ProgressiveCynic]

Actually, it will be little harder than that. I've got access to the Windows source at work, and it's not like you just get the source tree as files. Access is through a special viewer that requires a smart card with the correct certificate to be inserted while viewing, and then only allows particular files to be viewed through a special GUI. You could copy and paste each file out of the GUI and build your own source tree, but since we're talking about hundreds of thousands of files and gigabytes of data it would probably take a little more than six hours. At least until they automated it.

Re:Wild...

[Otter]

One wonders if this is a precedent being set

There's nothing new about this about this. Microsoft has made source available (under an NDA) for years, probably always. Presumably the fact that there are now competing operating systems and applications that offer complete and routine access to source may push them to offer source more liberally but there's nothing new here.

All that's new is that journalists and readers now know what the words "source code" mean.

Re:Wild...

[KeatonMill]

And really, do you think they'll give them ALL the source cold or even the CORRECT source code?

No, the precedent has already been set. . .

[kfg]

and set by Linux. Whether MS likes it or not, and whoever acknowledges it or not, the effective price of a functioning OS, complete with bundled office suite, is now $0. The effective method of delivery is with full source code.

The genie is out of the bottle. MS is the follower.

MS is running a slow retreat. It will do so as slowly as it can, as seldom as it can.

That is why it's offering the code to India but fought the DoJ tooth and nail. The *Indian* government's interest in Linux is one that MS believes is serious. It does not yet take the American govenments *use* of Linux seriously. When it does the American *government* will get code, but just exactly that least amount of code that will "seal the deal."

Rinse and repeat.

This is always the case when a business is based on "secret knowledge." Once someone else learns the knowledge they undercut the orginal seller. Once the knowledge is ubiquitous the knowledge has no commercial value per se and the "price" of the knowledge becomes the price of the labor to impliment it.

So it has been. So it is. So it shall be.

Eventually Windows and MS Office will sell, together, for about $40, about the price of a boxed Red Hat distro, and come with a certain amount of user readable and modifiable code.

It's where the market is already, it's just going to take a bit of time for it to overcome it's inertia and readjust to the current state of affairs.

With MS kicking and screaming all the way.

Because of this Linux *will never win.* At least in the sense of being the one true OS that dominates the world. It will eventually have too much competition *at it's own level.*

But that will be because its *principles* carried the day.

Somewhere in its heart MS realizes this. This is why it's so willing to aggresively seek various means of forcing Windows usage. It's the only tactic it has left.

Which is a clear indication that the game is already lost.

KFG

Re:No, the precedent has already been set. . .

[Tony]

The definition of "winning" is different for both MS-Windows and Linux. Microsoft indicates (through actions) it will win only when there are no competitors. Linux will win when it is accepted as a viable alternative.

There are third alternatives: Mac OS X, AmigaOS, BSD, Hurd, Menuet, Plan 9, Inferno, etc. There are hundreds of operating systems out there, many of which are very good for general-purpose computing.

By Microsoft's definition (world domination), Linux will most likely never win. But, neither will MS-Windows. The djinn is free, Pandora's box has been cracked.

And everyone but Microsoft will win, because Microsoft has made it a "Microsoft versus everyone else" fight.

Re:No, the precedent has already been set. . .

[Bistronaut]

(I guess I'm feeding the Troll, but...)

First off, the price of an OS + office suite is not zero. The price of a complicated, difficult to install, esoteric, very difficult to learn OS & office suite is zero. The price of an OS that works OUT OF THE BOX is several hundred dollars.

I know you're trying to call Linux + OpenOffice complicated, difficult to install, etc. but what was the last Linux distro that you installed? I install Windows pretty regularly at work and I have installed my fair share of Linux as well. Some versions of Linux are easier to install than Windows. RedHat 8, Mandrake 9 and Knoppinx (to name a few) work out-of-the-box for me. Plus, they install (or run without even installing) OpenOffice along with the OS. Getting a full system up and running with apps is far easer and much faster with Linux.

If you were comparing apples and apples, then MS would already have stopped selling their software. But, they are not perfect substitutes, and most intelligent, rational people know that. They are not even close to perfect substitutes.

If by "perfect substitutes" you meant "drop-in replacements", you're right. They are not drop-in replacements. No one ever said they were. Personally I don't want a drop-in replacement - I want an improvement. And while making it different doesn't always mean making it better, making it better ALWAYS means making it different.

People (like myself) would rather pay hundreds of dollars for Windows.[as opposed to $0 for Linux]

This one diserves an <ul>

• Most people get MS Windows "Free"* on their computers.
• Of those who explicitly buy MS Windows, many don't know about Linux and/or are victims of the disinformation out there about it.
• Those in the know are still often forced to go with MS Windows because of "inertia" factors like "App X is only available on Windows - Users of App X must use Windows - developers of App X continue just developing for Windows because that's where their customers are." It takes time to overcome such inertia, but it's happening.

The encouraging thing (if you're one of us "OSS zealots") is that Linux use continues to grow, both in servers and on desktops. Application customers (especially big businesses) are encouraging their application suppliers to develop for Linux. Computer manufacturers are bundling StarOffice and OpenOffice on computers (and passing the savings on to the customer). "Grandma friendly" Linux distros like Lycoris and Lindows are gaining steam. All-in-all, things are going well for Open Source and Free Software.

* We all know that MS Windows is very not free.

India I hope

[chunkwhite86]

India I hope has more sense than to buy into this obvious MS ploy. I'm not trying to sound like a typical anti-microsoft /.er, but this reeks of Microsoft's typical weasely business practice.

What guarantee does India have that when Windows 2004 comes out, it won't be a total re-write of the code that Microsoft doesnt want to share? Then their investment in MS code today will be useless tomorrow. Not to mention the myriad of overbearing restrictions that MS is bound to place on the use of their code.

If India wants to excel in the software development field, I think it's in their best interest to go with an Open solution e.g. Linux or some flavor of BSD. This is what will benefit them the most in the long run.

Re:Wild...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what Microsoft constantly misses with their "shared source" and other programs - it's not merely being able to LOOK at the sources as if they were museum pieces on display that is worth anything. The power of open source is that you can build those sources and use the executables. If there are security holes in the software, having a pile of source that you can't build and run is completely useless - you can never know if what you have is the source for the product it claims or is a really complicated BIOS for your toaster oven. Auditing a complete unknown set of sources that claim to be something is something - but you have no buildable proof - would be a colossal mistake.

Want to know the punch line to all of this? Linux has reduced Microsoft into one of those little squeaky "Me too!"s that are little more than flame bait..

-----
QUICK! Reply to this email that you'll attach your OS sources and we'll send you all of the free image-upgrading pr0n you can handle!
-----

Re:Wild...

[gclef]

I mentioned this the last time someone asked what I'd want the windows source for:

grep -r /home/archives/windows strcpy

It would teach me tons about finding overflows, I'm sure....

An Indian Techie's perspective

[inquisitive]

I am an Indian. I believe after a certain stage, there will be no stopping Linux (or *BSDs). The momentum for Linux is currently very weak, but is gathering speed every day. Why?

- Sooner or later India will grow strong enough to challenge US. Then Windows will be viewed with the kind of suspicion that the Chinese/Europeans do now.

- It is simply not attractive (market size) for MS to "Indianize" Windows, the way we Indians can do to Linux (eg All Native Languages, etc)

- I already see a trend that very IT savvy Indians tend to dislike MS for various reasons (trustworthiness, price-gouging, ...)

- Pride. With MS & its software, you can only do sweatshop style jobs. With Linux, we can turn our programmers into reputable contributors, recognised the world over.

SETI@India?

[TeknoHog]

Quote from the article, emphasis mine:

When contacted by ET, Microsoft India president Rajiv Nair was somewhat cagey. Although he didn't deny the move, he merely said, "We are evaluating the idea."

I guess giving the Windows source to aliens would confuse them enough to not want to invade Earth.

#include ba_doom_ching.h

Re:Wild...

[starseeker]

They have correct source code??

Re:Wild...

[SpaceLifeForm]

Please, if anyone does get the source,
please, please, do NOT leak it.

The bugs could get corrected, which could lead to competition for Linux.

microsoft's biggest nightmare

[solferino]

microsoft's biggest nightmare in six words

India becomes a free software country

why : free software's history has mostly been in the 'developed' world - here it is flourishing in spite of the fact that it is playing from a catch-up position

in these countries most of the places where it makes sense to use computers are already doing so and have been for a while - and most of these are using proprietary society

despite this, free software is making significant inroads

now factor in the world's (soon to be) most populous country turning down the free software path much earlier in it's computerisation process than the countries it is following - moreover a country where english is (fairly widely) known and which has a culture possibly unrivalled in it's ability to deal with abstract thought (witness the highly sophisticated ancient vedic and dravidian cultures and the contemporary reputation of indian programmers)

result : the free software movement - steady and stable and resolutely making progress gets a massive shot in the arm - india becomes an example to all other 'devloping countries' - the microsoft pyramid scheme starts to develop massive cracks in it's base

free software in india - well worth while keeping a watching brief on