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MS Proposes Disclosing Windows Source To India
raghuram writes "Interesting news from Economic Times of India, I found an interesting story, Microsoft Planning to Share Code with India." He excerpts from that article: "Microsoft has already made a proposal to the ministry of information technology (of India) for sharing the Windows source code with one government body. The nature of the body has not been spelt out; it will presumably be worked out after discussions between the company and the government officials. Interestingly, the offer comes at a time when state governments are showing interest in rival Linux operating system as the latter's source code is free and downloadable from the internet."
I give them 6 hours before the source is leaked and we can peruse (and be horrified) at our leisure.
Dyolf Knip
Does this remind anyone else of the girl behind the bushes who'd promise to show you hers if you let her see yours, but never quite followed through?
Even Jesus hates listening to Creed.
I'm sure M$ is just covering their ass and giving an excuse to foreign governments not to switch to Linux. Of course, if makes you wonder if India can be convinced to leak it. It would only take one person and one copy....
It sounds like Microsoft is running scared now. They realise that India is a powerhose because it has way more people (population) than the United States.
India seems to be tilted toward linux right now and if the linux movement there gets into full swing, the momentum will be very, very hard for Microsoft to stop.
I hope the Indians look to the long terms effects of the windows and linux paths, as opposed to short terms benefits.
Well, I reread the article, and it doesn't say whether they're thinking about opening the whole thing up to this agency or just select portions... they've given up parts of their code before to big corps and some educational institutions before, but I don't think they've ever given anyone the whole shebang.
Given how MS has protected its source in the past, I wouldn't count on any leaks, even if they do strike some kind of deal. I just don't see it happening.
In general, they're already paying for it (at least the goverments are, and I don't know how bad the piracy problem is in India...)
I think what's got Microsoft talking opening their source to the Indian government is that India and some other nations have been making noises about switching to open-source OSes. Maybe this is the first of several overtures to fractious governments.
Microsoft, after all, can offer some pretty tasty carrots with their sticks...
Sweet: If Windows source is made available in India and becomes available worldwide.
Sour: If Windows source is already available to selected developers right here at home, why hasn't someone leaked it?
My understanding of "Shared Source" was that Microsoft shows you theirs if you promise not to tell what it looks like. I naturally assumed that with the code being such a closely held secret, that it would be on the newsgroups before you could say groups-dot-google-dot-com.
But then, it may just be my ignorance showing... I'm just a VB coder staying away from the bleeding edge -- in order to provide my clients with code that works the same way each time.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Don't fall for that MS crap-trap. They might give you the source, but with a shit-load of draconian circumstances and catches that will make it unuseable.
Even if they do give India the source, it'll only be temporary -- for now, to prevent them from switching to Linux. Once India is dependant on MS, it'll be no more source and no more cheap-deals for them.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
... it could be Windows 3.11 that they're gonna release the source for.
So, Microsoft is offering show the Windows source to India, potentially tainting a 15% of the world's population with their intellectual property?
I can't think of a better way to manufacture thousands of Windows developers while at the same time denying Open Source access to a billion people.
"Einstein argued that [...] God is not capricious or arbitrary. No such faith comforts the software engineer." ~ Brooks
... they aren't willing to share source code in the U.S. for "security" reasons, but they are willing to pass on the source code to a country in the midst of a volatile conflict with a growing nuclear weapons program ...
...
and so now it's friday the 13th per GMT. maybe this is a fitting time to run the story
when it rains, it gets real soggy. when it pours, i'm under the tap just _waiting_ for the joy
The real reason is to make sure that developers who see their source code can't later work on open-source projects without "polluting" the open-source project. I will never look at M$ source code, for that, among other, reasons.
But could you imagine the damage if M$ was successful in claiming that their code ended up in a linux kernel? Or apache? or php? or perl? or gcc?
Why has the Windows Source Code, arguably the most valuable piece of source code in history, never been leaked? Certainly, as others have said, people have it. Or parts of it. The distribution methods are out there (Gnutella, Freenet, Overseas servers). Once this genie gets out of the bottle, it couldn't ever be stoppered back in. So why has there been ten or fifteen years of Windows with no source leaks?
I mean, if the atom bomb got out, which has only a fraction of the destructive power of Windows (just kidding), then why not Windows?
Has it been:
- People are too scared of Microsoft to do it, even with anonymizing technology?
- Microsoft's security is just that good?
- ???
Today, Indian government officials examined the Microsoft Windows source code and realized that 99% of the code, when printed in landscape, formed an image that faintly represented a fat, sweaty, balding man screaming around a stage like a monkey.
IGB: More fun than eating oatmeal!
http://in.news.yahoo.com/021212/43/1z0mv.html
I think IBM realizes what's at stake here and is willing to put more $$ where it's mouth is. That's gotta piss Bill and Steve off.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
These are all for good reason. Not only will one massive lost market initate several others, but India also represents a leading software high-tech zone that Microsoft does not want to lose. Think of the number of Linux programmers that would be learning to work on a real platform in five year if the government does not 'sell out' to this US monopoly.
I can't disclose really any more than this, but expect more concessions from the Redmond Giant before all is said and done. Hopefully India's Linux initiatives have not been just to facilitate dealing with M$.
Microsoft's dike is springing many holes. Thiy might fill this one, but products like the one below will be taking serious bites out of MSFT in the coming months...
http://www.distrowatch.com/review-xandros.php
Hunger is the best sauce.
if this may be related somehow to this recent announcement regarding IBM's recent software initiatives in India. On a slightly related question, how would any of this relate to the recent rumors of both IBM and MS vying to purchase Rational and Borland? My take is this: IBM may be the number 2 software vendor, but as a company MS knows they could be choked on for breakfast in terms of sheer scale as reflected in US dollars. Upon reading about the recent sentiments in India, my vote goes with Big Blue.
C|N>K
If it is a precedent being set, then it could very well be how the population of an entire country operates.
Most people think that 'operating systems' are something that are confined to the workings of computers. History, however, would point out that the term 'computer' used to refer to a person, whose job was to compute (with an abacus or something). Similarly, an 'operating system' also affects how people perform their jobs... Have you ever had somebody tell you something like 'OK, so click Start, Programs, Office, Word' And without thinking, you go through a set of motions that are nearly instinctual? That's an example of how people use operating systems to communicate information and tasks to other people.
I digress a bit. The way I see it, the United States has sort of a 'protective ward' or 'shield' against this kind of stuff, because the USA has a 250+ year old operating system which the federal government uses. The code? Written down in the US Constitution.
Anyhow, the way I see it, you are right, sharing the source code of their OS with a government does seem like its setting a bit of an odd precedent. As far as I can tell, it's sort of like saying, 'OK, we'll organize your billion people just like we organize our files on a supercomputer.' And every person gets a profile, access, authority, and authentication to certain network resources (can you say access control lists (ACLS)?). Hmmm.
It seems to me that it's suggesting a rather Brave-New-World-esque operating system for India. Very, very weird precedent.
-India
If you want to look at the source to ensure yourself that there is no NSA/CIA/M$ malware or trojans there, how do you know you are looking at the right thing? Will M$ actually let you USE the source and create your own certified Win distribution? Using your own trusted compiler?
Don't think so.
)9TSS
Unless microsoft plans on releasing the source code for every windows update patch as well, they will still be able to maintain as much control as they have always had (re: too much)
/* Source Code Windows XP */ //if // if //while //if /* printf("Welcome to Windows 3.1"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 3.11"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 95"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows NT 3.0"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 98"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows NT 4.0"); */ // while // main
#include "win31.h"
#include "win95.h"
#include "win98.h"
#include "workst~1.h"
#include "evenmore.h"
#include "oldstuff.h"
#include "billrulz.h"
#include "monopoly.h"
#include "backdoor.h"
#define INSTALL = HARD
char make_prog_look_big(16000000);
void main()
{
while(!CRASHED)
{
display_copyright_message();
display_bill_rules_message();
do_nothing_loop();
if (first_time_installation)
{
make_100_megabyte_swapfile();
do_nothing_loop();
totally_screw_up_HPFS_file_system();
search_and_destroy_the_rest_of-OS2();
make_futile_attempt_to_damage_Linux();
disable_Netscape();
disable_RealPlayer();
disable_Lotus_Products();
hang_system();
}
write_something(anything);
display_copyright_message();
do_nothing_loop();
do_some_stuff();
if (still_not_crashed)
{
display_copyright_message();
do_nothing_loop();
basically_run_windows_31();
do_nothing_loop();
}
}
if (detect_cache())
disable_cache();
if (fast_cpu())
{
set_wait_states(lots);
set_mouse(speed,very_slow);
set_mouse(action,jumpy);
set_mouse(reaction,sometimes);
}
printf("Welcome to Windows 2000");
if (system_ok())
crash(to_dos_prompt)
else
system_memory = open("a:\swp0001.swp",O_CREATE);
while(something)
{
sleep(5);
get_user_input();
sleep(5);
act_on_user_input();
sleep(5);
}
create_general_protection_fault();
}
(Hehe. Code courtesy of this funny site and reproduced here for your enjoyment.)
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Really, what would you want the code to Windows for? There are already bootleg binaries for those so inclined. The source code for all that bloat has to be reams and reams of bad hackery, worse patches, and blatant bandaids.
I suppose there would be the humor factor of being able to point out the lines that say,
// Leave commented out until appeals are over.
// remove( "C:\Program Files\Netscape\Netscape.exe" );
We, at my college, have NT 4 or 5 on CD (I think it's a 6 or 7 CD set). Entire source, but it's basically shelved away: the professors don't care about it, and the students generally don't know about it (or, if they do, care enough to sign an nda and get a professor to access the cds).
There's nothing new about this about this. Microsoft has made source available (under an NDA) for years, probably always. Presumably the fact that there are now competing operating systems and applications that offer complete and routine access to source may push them to offer source more liberally but there's nothing new here.
All that's new is that journalists and readers now know what the words "source code" mean.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
And really, do you think they'll give them ALL the source cold or even the CORRECT source code?
and set by Linux. Whether MS likes it or not, and whoever acknowledges it or not, the effective price of a functioning OS, complete with bundled office suite, is now $0. The effective method of delivery is with full source code.
The genie is out of the bottle. MS is the follower.
MS is running a slow retreat. It will do so as slowly as it can, as seldom as it can.
That is why it's offering the code to India but fought the DoJ tooth and nail. The *Indian* government's interest in Linux is one that MS believes is serious. It does not yet take the American govenments *use* of Linux seriously. When it does the American *government* will get code, but just exactly that least amount of code that will "seal the deal."
Rinse and repeat.
This is always the case when a business is based on "secret knowledge." Once someone else learns the knowledge they undercut the orginal seller. Once the knowledge is ubiquitous the knowledge has no commercial value per se and the "price" of the knowledge becomes the price of the labor to impliment it.
So it has been. So it is. So it shall be.
Eventually Windows and MS Office will sell, together, for about $40, about the price of a boxed Red Hat distro, and come with a certain amount of user readable and modifiable code.
It's where the market is already, it's just going to take a bit of time for it to overcome it's inertia and readjust to the current state of affairs.
With MS kicking and screaming all the way.
Because of this Linux *will never win.* At least in the sense of being the one true OS that dominates the world. It will eventually have too much competition *at it's own level.*
But that will be because its *principles* carried the day.
Somewhere in its heart MS realizes this. This is why it's so willing to aggresively seek various means of forcing Windows usage. It's the only tactic it has left.
Which is a clear indication that the game is already lost.
KFG
Astroturfers regularly assert that open source projects are less secure because there's security in obscurity. A lot of people would call that bullshit, but that's the argument.
What are they going to say when it's not just industrial spies, but a whopping big subcontinent that can find holes to exploit by code review? And we still can't patch it ourselves?
Ugh - frozen software, whose every flaw is there for the reader.
The only plus I see here is that only very obfuscated MS trojans will surivive.
Fwiw, (sorry I dont have an online reference), there was a very recent (like last week) article in the WSJ that went into detail about GatesCo's efforts to address uses of opensource. In fact, once instance was where the the Pentagon commisioned a research project on OpenSource (from Mitre) that basically concluded that open source is a good thing. MS came in and requested/demanded the conclusion be watered down. There have been other cases, such as india, where the govt decides to use open source apps for some educational project, then MS (unrelated of course) shows up the next day with big donation of "free" windows software, office, etc. How can a cash strapped gov't turn that down?
"Hey kid, the first one is free."
India I hope has more sense than to buy into this obvious MS ploy. I'm not trying to sound like a typical anti-microsoft /.er, but this reeks of Microsoft's typical weasely business practice.
What guarantee does India have that when Windows 2004 comes out, it won't be a total re-write of the code that Microsoft doesnt want to share? Then their investment in MS code today will be useless tomorrow. Not to mention the myriad of overbearing restrictions that MS is bound to place on the use of their code.
If India wants to excel in the software development field, I think it's in their best interest to go with an Open solution e.g. Linux or some flavor of BSD. This is what will benefit them the most in the long run.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
I am just wondering what are the proofs that the given source code is the very same one used to compile the binaries I can find in the stores?
I mean, even at m$, nobody as a view at the entire source. What are the proofs that backdoors aren't added just after the programmers labs by NSA or even... Al-Quaida?
And don't tell me Indian government will be allowed to compile their own versions for their whole staff!
Maybe I'm paranoid, but NO, I don't trust m$...
This is what Microsoft constantly misses with their "shared source" and other programs - it's not merely being able to LOOK at the sources as if they were museum pieces on display that is worth anything. The power of open source is that you can build those sources and use the executables. If there are security holes in the software, having a pile of source that you can't build and run is completely useless - you can never know if what you have is the source for the product it claims or is a really complicated BIOS for your toaster oven. Auditing a complete unknown set of sources that claim to be something is something - but you have no buildable proof - would be a colossal mistake.
Want to know the punch line to all of this? Linux has reduced Microsoft into one of those little squeaky "Me too!"s that are little more than flame bait..
-----
QUICK! Reply to this email that you'll attach your OS sources and we'll send you all of the free image-upgrading pr0n you can handle!
-----
There are 3 sources bases which can plausibly be called the windows source. The original source based which started with DOS and windows 1 and went on up to windows 95 and Windows Millenium. The 'portable windows' CE which is its own code base. And the NT code base which is the one people would want.
It might make a lot of sense for MS to give out the source to the windows 95 codebase, as it is old and decrepit and would cost more to understand than to reimplement.
Windows CE has a very small market and giving out the source base might be its last gasp.
I mentioned this the last time someone asked what I'd want the windows source for:
/home/archives/windows strcpy
grep -r
It would teach me tons about finding overflows, I'm sure....
I am an Indian. I believe after a certain stage, there will be no stopping Linux (or *BSDs). The momentum for Linux is currently very weak, but is gathering speed every day. Why?
...)
- Sooner or later India will grow strong enough to challenge US. Then Windows will be viewed with the kind of suspicion that the Chinese/Europeans do now.
- It is simply not attractive (market size) for MS to "Indianize" Windows, the way we Indians can do to Linux (eg All Native Languages, etc)
- I already see a trend that very IT savvy Indians tend to dislike MS for various reasons (trustworthiness, price-gouging,
- Pride. With MS & its software, you can only do sweatshop style jobs. With Linux, we can turn our programmers into reputable contributors, recognised the world over.
it doesn't matter as long as it works in the real world
this is one place where i think capitalism really shines
people won't stand for something ineffecient just because so and so would like to keep it that way so they can get rich, and the market will kill off companies that can't adapt as needed
when Indian programmers start dying of laughter after reading windows source code?
tcboo
#include ba_doom_ching.h
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
They have correct source code??
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
As I said before, please read this before jerking the knee:
v er sity/NTSrcLicInfo.aspx
http://research.microsoft.com/collaboration/uni
This may be the first time they've done this with a government, but it isn't the first time they've liscenced out their source.
Remember, Microsoft invented "embrace and extend" and FUD.
Perhaps the former, but for the latter, you can thank IBM. They perfected FUD in the Mainframe market when the finally had some competition in the form of a disgruntled engineer, Gene Amdahl.
Slashdot: Where nerds gather to pool their ignorance
please, please, do NOT leak it.
The bugs could get corrected, which could lead to competition for Linux.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
microsoft's biggest nightmare in six words
India becomes a free software country
why : free software's history has mostly been in the 'developed' world - here it is flourishing in spite of the fact that it is playing from a catch-up position
in these countries most of the places where it makes sense to use computers are already doing so and have been for a while - and most of these are using proprietary society
despite this, free software is making significant inroads
now factor in the world's (soon to be) most populous country turning down the free software path much earlier in it's computerisation process than the countries it is following - moreover a country where english is (fairly widely) known and which has a culture possibly unrivalled in it's ability to deal with abstract thought (witness the highly sophisticated ancient vedic and dravidian cultures and the contemporary reputation of indian programmers)
result : the free software movement - steady and stable and resolutely making progress gets a massive shot in the arm - india becomes an example to all other 'devloping countries' - the microsoft pyramid scheme starts to develop massive cracks in it's base
free software in india - well worth while keeping a watching brief on
but who can guarantee me that the binaries don't have those backdoors and trojans.
Take that one step further and read Ken Thompson's masterpiece Reflections on Trusting Trust
Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
I just ate. :-)
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Wonder how this affects any of the current cases against microsoft. If their argument that they can't disclose source in the interests of national security then how can they give it away to another nation which has the potential to be an unfriendly nuclear power ?
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
And while we're all saying how it's great that India.gov can decide whether to go with Windows based on analysing the source, Microsoft passes sackfulls of bribes to key officials under the table. India is even more systematically corrupt than the USA. This is just a smokescreen.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
It would seem that this 'open source' move is an attempt to silence the remaining critics who say that access to the source is more important than the $$$ that MS is throwing at them.
The sad thing is that this isn't comparable to having the Linux source. Very few will have access to it and those that do will only be able to look at it, rather than being able to modify the OS itself and redistribut it.
Basically the only benefit you get is the ability to look for bugs and trojans to make sure that you aren't being spied on. That is certainly reasonable for a government to want to do, but it is only one of the many benefits of true 'open source'.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Ok, so Bill gets all friendly and hands you a big pile of code (CD's? Big reams of paper delivered by truck?)... I'm having a hard-time not seeing the scene from the South Park movie "Hey, relax guy!"
Thing is, how can you be sure it's really the actual production windows source code? Sure it will probably compile and even run, but he could leave certain bits out and it would take YEARS to discover that fact if it's a subtle deficiency.
No thanks, getting the source to Windows is like getting those low-interest rate checks from your credit card company. It sounds good on the surface, but when you really read it, you realize what a load it is....