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Keeping An Eye On Total Information Awareness
mesozoic writes "Wired is running a story about hackers publishing John Poindexter's personal information (like satellite photos of his home) to protest the proposed Total Information Awareness system. This is just too funny, and it may even raise a few more eyebrows among the national media."
TIA only serves to demonstrate the supreme arrogance of the US govt - quick! search the big database for "white van"
That was classic intercourse!
Noone here said he has broken any laws (which, as far as I know, is not as clear though). But I haven't either - still my record is/will be searched and is/will be available for many people who I don't like to have my records.
So why not make Poindexter's records available too?
No, he's a member of the ruling elite. Do you not understand what a Plutocracy is yet?
That was classic intercourse!
John Poindexter hasn't broken any laws
Sure he has, he just can't be tried and convicted for his criminal acts because Congress handed him immunity.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
I don't think people are really trying.
I do not want publically available information like his phone number and house construction materials. I want real data, of the type the government is trying to conglomerate. Satellite photos Bah! What's next, a whereis.com map?
Print me a list of his credit card transactions, the itineries from his plane journeys and his bank balance and I will be impressed.
and one that illustrates the point excellently.
:/
it's particularly encouraging that the press don't seem to be universally attacking the stunts as well.
it staggers me that people don't immediately start shouting "1984!!" when this sort of thing is suggested. im also a bit disappointed that clinton is a supporter, i thought he was a bit more libertarian than that
In that case, everyone involved in the phone listing, record keeping, and such, is a criminal. As pointed out in the article, the reporter mainly collected publicy available data.... I don't see how he can possibly be tagged as criminal for that...
TIA would even be worse, since it'd collect non-public data as well.
Tsuyoikoto ha taisetsu da ne, dakedo namida mo hitsuyousa (Strength is an important thing, but tears too are necessary)
Here's something interesting ---
I wonder what will happen in schools in a few years? When we were all kids growing up, we were taught that we were the greatest nation because we had certain freedoms, that the government had limited power over watching us etc, instead of places like soviet Russia (where the CD players listen to YOU--- woops, wrong post) that watch and control their citizens.
What is probably going to happen is that kids in schools today will be taught (slowly as not to draw attention to it) that it is good and proper for the government to watch its citizens, that there is no such thing as a "right to privacy" etc... and kids being kids will dismiss our ideas of personal liberty, privacy, etc as old fasioned - or worse, that they see mommy or daddy using PGP or linux, or planting a tree in front of the security camera in their house, and thinking that mommy or daddy must be terrorists...
Just my 2 cents' worth...
RickTheWizKid
Last I heard, he was directly implicated in the supply of weapons to terrorists. Ok, he got immunity from a friendly regime, but Poindexter broke laws that any other person would spend a long time in prison for.
See my journal, I write things there
Trying to change John Poiedexters mind is useless. But you CAN cut off the money to his idea so it can't take shape.
For the TIA to happen, there has to be money.
That money has to come from taxpayers, allocated by congress, then some government contractor has to take that money.
Give the TIA treatment to:
1) Congresspeople and their top staffers. Congress members who are in favor of this idea get the TIA treatment. Russ Feingold should have nothing to worry about, as he was the only one with a backbone WRT the PATROIT act.
2) The CEO's, lead techs and board of directors of the contractors who TAKE the "dirty money" should also get the TIA treatment.
You could start off with pictures, telephone numbers, tax info...that is low-hanging fruit. Add in any court cases they have been involved with.
I agree, this is so Orwellian. Wasting a unholy ammount of money, to filter a few bad people. Give them another black hole to filter money to politicans, ya thats the ticket.
I sometimes think, that our goverment has opened the doors to the world, not for cheep labor, not because of humanity, but to delute the mass of people who have voices and care about where they live. That gives them a agenda, a reason to clatter the sabers, and let you know how they are going to spend BILLIONS in finding the bad guys they let in. Oh ya, and help their buddies become rich. Why should they care, work two years, and get full pay for life.
I suggest you talk to your VOTING friends, parents, and anybody who will lend a ear, that this is a BAD thing. Its hit the papers here in Dallas, so it makes a nice conversation topic. Actually it helps having a known criminal working on it. Makes the whole administration look bad for supporting the idea.
Yes, exactly. Poindexter is a criminal -- no, wait a minute, he isn't, because he was declared not to be! Similarly, the people who collected and disseminated the information (whom Wired calls "online pranksters," but whom the spookocracy will call "hacker pirate terrorists") aren't criminals -- until they are declared to be. This has nothing to do with law as rational people understand the concept (you know, a nation of laws and not of men, the majesty of the law, equal protection before the law, all that) and everything to do with raw power.
...
In 1776, the American Revolution began with Americans declaring they would no longer be subjects of the King. In 1865, the Revolution ended with the final defeat of aristocracy on American soil. In 2001, the counter-revolution began; it is now coming to fruition. It took us a little longer than France or Russia, but the end may well be the same
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
You have that wrong. Clinton is not a "libertarian", he is a libertine. Big difference.
IIRC, the A-Team drove a black van.
;)
I pity the fool who doesn't know that!
Sentimentality is merely the Bank Holiday of cynicism.
- Oscar Wilde
Using such playground language only serves to paint Gilmore as some juvenile lefty-crank. Gilmore's article would have greater impact if he chose to speak plainly and coolly in an adult voice.
We know he's emotional about this issue, but take a few deep breaths, set the emotion aside, gather your thoughts and express them rationally and clearly. There are far too many of us on this side given to tantrums and rants.
One Bush voter, speaking on condition of anonymity, said ...
One of the problems of privacy advocates is that you can never get a reliable attributable quote from them.
Risk implies trust. If our government doesn't trust us, can we trust it? If we do, how much freedom are we risking, and for what?
I think those are significant questions that should be answered, probably in exhaustive detail. But appearently questioning the people who answer to you is offically unamerican (if the insipid talking heads are to be believed). It's vaguely reminiscent of that old McCarthy news reel footage in a way. Which is why I'm not worried. How'd that end up? McCarthy is an american villain, poor ol' J Edgar a joke, MLK a canonized hero Ali a living legend. When the executive branch has detailed records of Justice Thomas's prefered Long Dong Silver rentals, who's knows what kind of civil liberties crusader he'll turn into. He may even regain his powers of speech.
Among other things, Poindexter violated his officers loyalty oath, and helped make it possible for Osama to get some of those Stinger missles. Hardly a saint. He and Ollie, by all rights, should be fighting wild dogs for scraps of meat in urine soaked alleys, but not enough oral sex was involved to warrent much investigation.
--Jimmy has fancy plans; and pants to match.
Why do I get the nasty idea that the some people in the military/CIA had thought of the Total Information Awareness program some time ago and were just waiting for a problem to propose it as a solution ?
I mean the horrendous events of Sept 11th didn't slip past the security services because there wasn't enough information available, they slipped past because none of the analysts connected the dots between known associates of terrorists in the USA + money being sent to these people from Saudi + lots of odd(*) people wanting to learn how to fly jets = big friqin problem.
Increasing the amount of detail that the analysts have to deal with would not solve any of the problems that allowed Sept. 11th to happen, but would make the governments job of cracking down on US dissidents easier.
It's the same in the UK. The civil service seem very eager for there to be a national identity card, and keep proposing it as a solution for a variety of different problems.
One year it can be used to combat terrorism, the next it can be used to crack down on asylum seekers. ooh how about we use to prevent identity fraud ? Every time the public refuses to accept this government monitoring of them, but still the civil servants keep suggesting the same plan over and over.
* Odd people = Students who come to the US on a visa, then are allowed to drop the studying and start learning how to do a job (breaking the terms of their visa), and who then act suspiciously enough during the lessons, so that the instructors call the FBI to warn them they think the students might be terrorists wanting to fly the planes into buuldings
"Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
Lets say someone kills someone else with a gun. The act of killing can be judged based on many factors (although it is my opinion that it's easier to prove that any killing is in some way bad rather than that any killing is in some way good.) The act of being killed can also be judged, but only weakly ... what if the person killed ran in front of an operating machine gun?
But the gun ... no, the gun is neither good nor bad.
The sarcastic asshole liberal would also like to add, "I'm sure this is what you explained."
--- Jason Olshefsky
Karma: Poser (mostly affected by adding this line long after everyone else did)
They can already subpoena banks, airlines, get your criminal records etc... so what if the FBI can access your records at any time?
That is the whole point! Yes the FBI can get this information, but first they have to prove to a judge that there is probable cause that you are breaking the law. They can't just walk down the hallway and say, give me everything on X and don't ask why.
The US Constitution and laws are built this way for a reason. There is a whole system of Checks and Balances to help prevent misuse of power. To prevent, specifically, the tyranny the colonies were living with under the English rule. How have those goals to prevent tyranny changed in 200 years?
That haven't; some politicians have just forgotten why the country was formed.
Come on everyone, this whole post is basic 9th grade civics.
I don't see things in black and white; I see the gray. Heck, I actually see in color, which makes things more difficult
The next addition (if it's not part already) of TIA will be keeping track of who accesses public databases looking for information about public figures.
Remember our good friend Henry Kissinger? He just resigned from the non-partisan committee to investigate September 11, and changed his answering machine message because of all the flak over having a war criminal and cover-up artist in charge of the most sensitive piece of police work going on right now. I'm sure he's in favor of locking up people who look for his personal info... or at least overthrowing their democratically elected leaders and installing a dictator who will kill them anyway.
(aside: I can't stop laughing at this one joke on the most recent page of Get Your War On -- When Kissinger signs a government paycheck, does he use a ballpoint pen, or the bloody, severed limb of an East Timorese child?)
In post-9/11 America, the CIA interrogates YOU!
They can do this. You are correct. But this requires concent of something called a "judge". I like to think of this "judge" as an impartial third party with little interest besides the law. Under the TIA, they won't need a judge, they can just access all your information and profile you.
Ok... let's throw up a for instance. You make a large cash withdrawl to loan a friend money for rent. You have to do this every couple of months he's kind of down on his luck. Now you go to the book store to purchase a book for your English class, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. A couple months later you move to Chicago, so you buy a one way plane ticket. No big deal, you are not doing anything wrong.
Now, do the same things, for the same reasons, being a 26 year old Middle Eastern Male...... Now you have the FBI NSA ATF etc. grilling you. But you weren't being "naughty." just "Middle Eastern."
I am just trying to help you see the flaws in your logic. You are entitled to that opinion. Just as I am entitled to the opinion that if you seriously think a central repository of information will do so much good in catching terrorists, that you would waive your right to privacy and proper searches, I personally think you're a coward.
I wish there was some there was some way that I could be outside playing basketball, in the rain, and not get wet.
IIRC, he wasn't pardoned - his conviction was overturned on a technicality. Which, in my book, means that he should not do jail time, but he also should not be appointed to further posts of responsibility.
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
Having information accessible to governments is not a problem unless you're naughty.
You're trolling, right? Please say you're trolling.
You think they're going to find it funny that you rent a pron video of animal action once a month? They're not even going to care...
I perform expert witness testimony in computer related criminal cases, most of which revolve around obscenity allegations. I can say, with some authority, that you have not the slightest fucking idea (no pun intended) what you are talking about. Beastiality is covered by most obscenity laws, so not only will the FBI care, they will put you in prison for it. The numbers the FBI has to make to keep their job is convictions, and computer geeks who've been sent child porn images via spam make very easy convictions. I've seen guys go away for less than the example you provided.
They can already subpoena banks, airlines, get your criminal records etc... so what if the FBI can access your records at any time?
A subpeona is one thing. A blank check search warrant is quite another. Given the lengths I've seen the FBI go to in order to get said search warrant, I can say that Society As We Know it will be quite different when the need to do so no longer exists.
If you don't trust those people who'll be working with the information, do something about it
Unless the 4th, 7th, and 9th amendments have been removed from the Constitution, I'm not supposed to have to do anything about it. That's how rights (are supposed to) work.
I know a lot of you out there are thinking that the liberals should be against the TIA thingy, but it really should be the Republicans that have a shitfit over this crap.
The good old Republican party used to be for less government and less government in your shit. What the hell happened to that? These fucking neo-cons that are running our country are scary mofos.
Yes the ACLU should be throwing a fit and they are, but everyone (Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Greens) should be putting up their fists and fighting this blatant abuse of power.
Please write or fax your politicians and tell them what you think. Harassing some dork with phone calls is funny, but this aint Crank Yankers this is politics and prank phone calls are going to stop anything. The only hope is that the media stop sucking Bush's dick and start talking some smack.
LoRider