josquint asks:
"Does the Computer Service/Repair field need to be regulated? This is a question I asked myself after spending a day off from my position as Lead Technician at a local computer shop, in an auto repair shop and a hair salon. In both places, I noted that all the employees had their trade credentials displayed for all customers to see. They are not only displayed as a matter of pride or to gain customer trust (as my A+ and Network Security certificate is) but as a matter of law. This regulation, to me, makes sense. If you're going to pay good money to have your automobile repaired, it better be by someone trained and proficient at doing it (otherwise I might as well do it myself!). Also, there is a matter of safety --an error in repairing a car can easily result in injury or death of quite a few people, so some accountability is needed.
The salon regulation, to me at first, seemed like the usual overkill large government regulation. However, it too is a matter of safety to the clients, as the chemicals and equipment (tanning beds especially) can also do harm if used incorrectly. Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world? What kind of regulation would you like to see, if any? How and at what level would it be implemented and enforced?"
"I personally would like something that requires certain basic certifications for the techs themselves, and possibly something to do with retail shop areas (use of static mats, data backup procedures, etc). And enforced at the State level similar to most small business type codes.
I wouldn't have a problem following some such type of regulation, and probably wouldn't need to do much if anything to make code. I do a fair share of cleaning up after fly-by-night companies/consultants/johnny's-14-year-old nephew-that-really-knows-computers. It costs a lot of the local businesses serious money to replace lost data and sub-standard equipment. I just completed a total system replacement at a clinic that had the system replaced about 2 months ago. It cost them over $10,000 for a system the should have been close to $3,500, but they had to replace the first replacement due to a consultant that had no experience or knowledge in that type of system trying to put one in.
While regulation wouldn't solve everything, I think it might cut down on the riff-raff and wannabes in an industry that many businesses can't do without as they can't do without electricity."
Slashdot Mirror
Computer certification would be GREAT! We've all seen that there's no dishonest mechanics.
riding round the world on an old motorcycle
An automobile mechanic is certified and licensed because there are safety issues that can be fatal when a mechanic performs their duties improperly.
Similarly, a hair stylist has sanitation concerns that must be met to provide a germ-free and safe environment.
A computer technician normally troubleshoots and diagnoses systems that do not have concerns of this type.
Granted, there are occasions when a system is critical to the functioning of a system of this type, such as elevators, but most of those functions are licensed anyway, so the technology must be certified, rather than the technician.
All opinions presented here aren't mine.
Because if your $100 sink gives way, you can have $50000+ of water damage to contend with.... whereas on a computer the stakes are usually much lower.
:)
For important systems, get certified techs. For Joe Everyman, there's usually no need -- esp. with all the cheap underage (high school) proficient labor around.
But what do I know. I'm just looking for anonymous gay sex.
Personally I'm against any kind of legal controls on business unless there is a huge case that those controls are necessary (not nice to have).
The things I see in the cases above are people who make bad choices and ignore the simplest of common sense when hiring someone to do any kind of work.
This would just add costs to those who want to do the work- which would get passed on to the customer and drive out the little guy who doesn't have the time or money to get a 'license' to fix computers.
Not to mention the possible legal hassles for helping someone out.
Nope.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
If the gov't is going to require certification, all you need is your A+ and Network Security certs. You know how "advanced" the A+ is with all of it's DOS and Windows 3.1 questions.
Anyone who passes these tests is definately qualified to repair my computer running my favorite flavor of *BSD or Linux!
I dont think the actual maintainance needs regulation as much as customer service in general - for all industries.
Frys for example has horrendous levels of bad/returned equipment (because the purchase and resell refurbs and returns and bad equipment side-by-side at the same prices as real brand new equipment) and they tend to have very very poor customer service.
I would rather have a level of customer service that should be expected from any and all customers - maybe even regulating the return/exchange policies....
If all companies were required to have their customer service entities live of to an expected level of performance/satisfaction it would do wonders for trust and consumer satisfaction in general.
I cannot tell you how angry it makes me when I deal with difficult, deceptive or rude customer service agents.
There no ordinary dust bunnies in computers! They have a mean streak a mile wide and big, nasty, pointy teeth!! *Puts fingers to lips* ... Look at the bones!
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
They ALSO need 10 stars on eBay and excellent Karma on /. !
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Hey Jeff, could you come over and take a look at my computer?
Sorry man, I could get in real trouble if I work on your computer. I don't have a license...
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
"Certifications are a waste, since only the unskilled seem to go after them. Look at MCSE MCSA and A+"
When I worked for DEC they had a rule, "A+ or your ass is gone." To keep a job, certs come in real handy. To get a (new) job, certs come in real handy, too. Some employers (prospective or otherwise) may not care about how long you've done something, or if you've been in the field forever, but if you have the cred to "prove it."
I've had many bad haircuts.
I've met lots of people who are MCSE's who are clueless.
All the certifications mean is that someone has demonstrated to someone else that they can regurgitate material that has been laid out for them. It doesn't mean they can apply the knowledge to real world situations.
I go to organizations that have a good reputation, I've had good experience with, or my friends/peers have had good experience with. If I have a bad experience with them, I move elsewhere.
I like the system. It works. Sometimes I get burned, but for the most part I'm happy because I use common sense.
Idiot, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant
Then we have some people with no formal training who know there stuff and work hard and produce great work.
Similarly, we have folks who have "certifications" that are absolutely meaningless.
Same with our hardware people -- our 17-year-old interns know more about this stuff than the MCSEs.
All this does is make it harder for an independent artisan to make a living -- I don't want Intel's stamp of approval. The only approval I need is a legion of satisfied customers who tell their friends and colleagues and word spreads and reputation builds -- like in the old days before you could "buy" a certification.
While you're studying for A+ or MCSE, there's some 14-year-old with a soldering iron, learning the hard way how to fix a faulty IDE control, and a 12-year-old decompiling the NT kernel to figure out why his graphics card causes a BSoD. And in ten or fifteen years old, your certification will be obsolete, and if you're lucky, you'll be working for the now-29-year-old VP of engineering.
My 20+ years worth of non-licensed troubleshooting is far better than any certification, in my opinion. I routinely fix systems that I have never seen before just because I have a knack for it. I think certification is great, but not necessary.
What are we going to discuss next? How about "should all programmers have CS degrees?".
"An automobile mechanic is certified and licensed because there are safety issues that can be fatal when a mechanic performs their duties improperly."
Yeah, well when I am playing BF1942 and get shot up due to a poorly responding NIC driver or a fragged drive I want some sort of accountability. It IS a safety issue.
If for nothing else, do it for the children.
come on fhqwhgads
Because if your $100 sink gives way, you can have $50000+ of water damage to contend with.... whereas on a computer the stakes are usually much lower.
We could argue back and forth about the monetary value of my personal data and files, as well as my user account credentials for online services, which could be damaged/destroyed/compromised if I were to take my system in for service. I'd say that's a fairly large liability, wouldn't you?
Suppose I run my own legitimate business at home from my computer? That's a pretty hefty burden to deal with if the shop I take my system to screws it up. You could say that it's my responsibility to keep backups of my data, but I'd just as easily say it's the shop's responsibility to make sure that they don't break what isn't already broken. You know...the ol' Hippocratic oath - "First, do no harm."
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Consumers should bear some responsibility for their actions rather than putting even more laws on the books. You shouldn't hire somebody who has no experience setting up certain type of system to build one for you. Period. Sometimes, the burden for getting something done should be placed on the person who needs it, not the government. If you need a computer system, research local consultants and ask for references. There's no reason why the government should have to spend time and money doing something you should be doing yourself.
This would not work. The goverment is not a fast agency. If they did this we'd be proving we could repair Applie //e computers, not Intel P4's with RAID and fibre channel components.
And can you imagine the politics? Microsoft would want training for people to repair their hardware spec. Hollywood would want people to take an oath not to disable their copy protection devices that might be enabled some day. Homeland would want a quick scan of the hard drive for those terrorist keywords.
I think we are better off with the unregulated way things are now.
Yes, you data does carry liability, but you can remove all risk by backing up before the work is done. No one should loose more than the cost of their equipment when it is service. If you trust you data to some else who is going to be banging around inside you computer you are going to get in trouble.
Spencer Ogden
Let's see: I had a Mac Powerbook 180c, and the surface-mounted powerplug pulled off the board. Anyhow, I brought it in, they charged me to replace the board, opened it in front of me... everything was fine except for that. It was an Apple-Certified Repair shop. So I got it repaired. Took it home, it worked. So then I set it aside. Later on, I pulled it out to use it: the fix lasted less than 2 weeks. They said "sorry, you waited too long. No warranty." So I got out my soldering iron and did a job myself. In the process, I also noticed, though, that they had busted the hard drive mounts, and just *set* it back in place. It was loose.
I said "no more of them". I went to CompUSA next, which was both Apple Certified *AND* CompUSA Certified. The problem was my PB3400c: the trackpad button was failing. So they got it (opening the computer: $180), and said "Well, the trackpad needs replacing, but we can't get another one for another month or so. We can close it up, and let you have it back, or we can hold onto it for a month. But meanwhile, we jury-rigged a sortof fix that might last for a while."
Hmm. It lasted for about a year. I went back; they said "well, it'll be another $180 to open it up again..." I needed it. They opened it. They replaced the trackpad -- but used a missized screw, so it failed again within 4 months. Tough. It's a 3-month warranty.
You know, certification really means nothing. I've repaired each of my powerbooks since then, I've done a better job, and the cost was a 2-3 hours of labor at most.
Requiring legal certification is just going to ensure that the people who are really good and cheap don't get jobs through us users stumbling on them and then sticking with them.
I say leave it to random chance, and just let people publish like crazy on the web who is good, and who isn't worth the screwdriver they wave around.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
I've worked in PC repair, and I'd like you to show me a single shop out there that doesn't make you sign a nice long release of liability saying "No matter what happens to your data, it isn't our problem"
All this does is make it harder for an independent artisan to make a living -- I don't want Intel's stamp of approval. The only approval I need is a legion of satisfied customers who tell their friends and colleagues and word spreads and reputation builds -- like in the old days before you could "buy" a certification.
At the risk of being modded a troll or offtopic, I wanted to draw an analogy here. The statement that you don't want a stamp of approval and that your satisfied customers is all the "proof" of your competance bothers me a little. I see it coming dangerously close to the current state of alternative medicine. Like you, those practioners do not particularly care if they are recognized by the medical community as a legitimate treatment -- they proudly point to their satisfied customers as "proof" that their methods work. I'm not going to go into a long diatribe of how people can be mistaken in their belief that alternative medicine has helped them here (check out QuackWatch for a more detailed explanation). People can be easily fooled. In the process of repairing someone's hard drive, you might actually wipe out the data through your own negligence. Then you simply tell the customer that the hard drive and all the data on board could not be salvaged. Hey, it's not your fault, you tell them, it was simply fried that bad when they brought it to you. Because the customer doesn't know any better, they simply take your word for it. If you do a speedy job of replacing their hard drive, they might very well end up being satisfied customers, completely unaware that YOU were the reason the data was lost.
I'd just like to point out that this attitude that I hear in so many fields about "I don't need credentials. My customers will vouche for me." kind of spooks me a little.
GMD
watch this
I'm a political consultant, and I'm not sure whether to laugh at the ignorance implied by the proposed solution or calmly explain why things work the way they do. I'm trying hard to remember that some people actually believed the garbage they heard in seventh grade civics classes and that they haven't actually dealt with real politicians enough to know what motivates such laws.
:-)
Laws requiring people to be licensed to do certain things (such as repair plumbing or cut hair) are sold to the public as protection for the public, but, in reality, those regulations are about protecting the people already in a business and keeping prices high for the service. If you honestly think that regulations such as you're proposing will keep out incompetent people, you clearly haven't seen some of the bad haircuts that I've seen from fully licensed haircutters. Do you think the licensing keeps incompetent plumbers from working? Do you think that licensing keeps incompetent people in almost ANY field from working?
Government licensing is popular because it provides barriers to entry into a profession. It makes it harder to compete with the people who are already doing it (and tends to make prices for those services HIGHER than they otherwise would be). But all those things do is create hoops for people to jump through. Any idiot can memorize enough basic facts long enough to get a real estate license, for instance, but that doesn't mean that person is going to be a competent agent. A licensed haircutter isn't necessarily a good haircutter. And a licensed plumber isn't necessarily a good plumber.
The market is what works. If somebody is good at something, you recommend him or her to your friends -- and that person gets more business. If somebody is lousy at something, word gets around and the person has trouble getting work, until he's getting work only from people who are more interested in a cheap price than a quality job. The same is true in ANY field -- even things where we like to pretend that licensing provides a level playing field for everyone, such as with physicians.
Politicians like licensing requirements, because they allow them to tell the voters that they're protecting them, while they're really taking contributions from professional groups of union groups which are eager to lock out competition.
Giving the government the power to decide who is competent to do ANYTHING is crazy. The longer I'm around politics, the more I think that anarchy is a darn good idea.
David
1) How and at what level would it be implemented and enforced?
Constitutionally, the Federal Government has the authority to regulate interstate commerce, and other transactions are left to state and local governments, and to individual citizens. That's the model followed in regulating most industries: Licensing of Professional Engineers is done by each state, and it just happens for convenience that all states have chosen to recognize the standards set forth by the non-governmental American Board of Engineering and Technology. Licensing of local businesses is generally done by county or city agencies.
2) What kind of regulation would you like to see, if any?
As inclined towards libertarianism as I am, I'd tend to say as little as possible. It's a 'buyer beware' world, and if someone other than me is working on my home computer, I'm going to make sure they have a good reputation, even if they are still working their way through college, as my roommate is.
Now, if the people in your community overwhelmingly want some sort of government-imposed consumer protection in this regard, that's up to you. Get your city council or county commissioners to deal with it. But I don't want it imposed on me.
3) Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world?
Not if it prevents people from entering freely into business deals of their own choosing. As I mentioned above, my roommate uses his computer-building and computer-fixing skills to help pay for college, but it's not something he plans on doing for his life once he graduates. He's damned good at building and fixing computers, and he could pass any certification test you could throw at him, and there are plenty of people who would be willing to vouch for him on personal experience with his work. But would it be worth the money a government or private accrediting agency would undoubtedly charge if it's not something he plans to use for more than a few years? Not likely.
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
Take a look at Milton Friedman's discussion of professional licencing in Capitalism and Freedom. His contention is that licensing is simply another barrier to entry in an industry, and as such is almost always supported by those IN the industry as a way to keep new firms out, and prices up. He points to government licensing of pedicurists, a move which was lobbied for by (you guessed it) pedicurists, as a way to keep immigrants out of the industry (because they were willing to work for much less.
Would this benefit the customer? Or would it simply make things more expensive?
I see lots of people ranting about how certifications are worthless. Most certifications are worthless, however some are not.
Worthless:
MCP and MCSE
A+ and *+ (everything else +)
CIW
Value:
CCIE
RHCE
Just MHO
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
And if you think back, to when you actually had to PAY ATTENTION to who was fixing your car, because Uncle Sam was not involved in the decision, you probably got much better service for your dollar, and knew a lot more about the work.
For years I took my car to a shop far from home, because they did good work, knew me personally, even occasionally let me use their tools to do a job myself, etc. I selected them based on reputation, and service, and their record with me personally. Not some license on the wall. And just as importantly, when they started screwing up my car every time it went there, I stopped going. Despite the license on the wall.
We Americans are a lazy bunch. Hey, the gu'mmint says they're licensed, must be okay. Here, Joe, fix my car. I trust you because Uncle Sam does too.
Back in 'the day' when the consumer had to actually pay attention, I'll wager the service was a lot better. Sure there were ripoff artists, and bad stuff happened, but those shops didn't stay around for long.
Just so, today, I'd bet that the overall service is better on computers, BECAUSE there is no regulation.
--Brandon / Split Infinity Music
You could say that it's my responsibility to keep backups of my data.
Well, yes, that's exactly what I'd say. If you ever give critical data to anyone without having a backup, then you're probably going to screw yourself long before a careless tech has a chance to do so. Of course, if you engage in that kind of negligence while working for someone else, you'll probably be finding work in another field, anyway.
Personally, I think certifications for computer repair are meaningless. Given that assembling computers is only slightly more complicated than assembling Legos, and the cost of simply replacing a motherboard (or whatever) is often less than the cost of having a tech spend a couple of hours performing diagnostics, the additional cost imposed by "licensed" technicians would be pointless.
This is for PCs, mind you -- for high end machines like Sun servers or IBM mainframes, the vendor supplies trained technicians and no outside agency would have the expertise necessary to even design a certification program.
Perhaps more important than any of this is the painfully obvious fact that you can easily have crappy work done on your car in garages full of certified mechanics, and you can get excellent repair work done by shade-tree mechanics. Certification programs exist mainly as a marketing tool and a bar to entry for competitors, and utterly fail to address the main problem with auto mechanics, which is endemic fraud. There is no reason to believe that computer repair -- another field where fraud is endemic -- would be any better served by bogus certifications than the auto repair industry.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
I was building computers when I was 16. I used to help my high school computer guy after basketball practice when I was 18. I know about 15 other people with similar backgrounds. None of us have ever even thought about getting an A+ cert. Why? Because building and troubleshooting PC hardware has always been extremely easy, straightforward, and demanded very little technical knowledge. It is a hobby for many. Such a lax and intellectually undemanding trade shouldn't require some form of regulation. Basic contractual agreements already protect a consumer enough.
I don't care if they are licensed, as that would only increase the cost of doing business, and cut out a lot of the smaller shops.
However, one should be insured for reasonable liability..
This goes for any industry as far as I'm concerned. My Auto mechanic isn't licensed, but his work IS guaranteed.
If they are incompetent they don't stay in business anyway. Sort of self-policing.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
For a computer tech that's probably no longer the case. Unless he stayed in the field and continued his training, his knowledge is now up to date.
Also for car repair or hair dressing you need motoric skills (welding, cutting precisely etc) - once learned they can probably be adapted for new styles, or new tools fairly quickly. For the computer field that's usually not the case - unless you want to get deep into using soldering irons, the motoric side is trivial - what's important is to be able to pick up new knowledge quickly and to understand complex systems. Something which is very difficult to measure with certifications. They are only checking a snapshot of current (and soon out of date) knowledge.
Setting up a certification body, which then has to continually update the skill set measured is going to be a lot more difficult, in this case.
The best computer techs are often students, who know a lot of about computers and are quick to pick up new knowledge. They are good in that field because of these skills, and because they have these skills they will not stay in that field. They are training for other professions, and won't have time for getting these certifications.
So what I'm worried about, is that these certifications will effectively preclude the best suited people from actually working in the field, removing a good job for students to earn money for their tuition, and will not noticeably raise the minimum standards either.
I do a fair share of cleaning up after fly-by-night companies/consultants/johnny's-14-year-old nephew-that-really-knows-computers. It costs a lot of the local businesses serious money to replace lost data and sub-standard equipment.
So why are you complaining? The fact that you're trusted to clean up these mistakes shows that you evidently have the experience/credentials/word-of-mouth-reputation that these fly-by-nighters, consultants, and nephews lack. On your part, you'd make less money if it weren't for two things:
1) Some of your customers were at one point careless with their money.
2) You have something better to offer than their previous servicefolks. Something that allows you to charge more, and forces them to either discount or get Darwinized out of business.
And on the part of your clients, they gain the benefit of wisdom (good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement). Plus, it is worth the money they pay you to have you around to clean up their mistakes.
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
Exactly!
I too fix dozens of computers every month for people who had their friend who "really knows computers" work on it, and the work ranges from slightly to extraordinarily incompetent in most cases. Businesses get roped into bad deals with incompetent computer techs, too, and it's entirely preventable.
Some steps to ensure the integrity of your data;
- How long have you been doing this?
- Have you worked at and/or operated any other businesses recently?
- What do you know about {insert system configuration here}?
- What are your labour rates? (Hint: established, knowledgeable businesses will tend to have firm, hourly labour rates. Joe Computer Guy will work for a coffee, a cheeseburger, 'like 20 bucks', etc.)
- How long have you been in this location?
- What steps would you take to ensure the integrity of my data?
- What type of warranty do you offer?
- Do you guarantee your labour? How?
If the company wants your business, they'll take the time to answer your questions and make you feel confident. Some will even invite you, if you don't feel comfortable, to take your business elsewhere. If they seem like they really, REALLY want your business, be wary.There are any number of things you can do to ensure that you can trust the people you're leaving your computer with; a lot of which can be asessed in about 30 seconds when you walk in the door. Caveat Emptor has to apply, and if people are going to blindly trust someone on their word (hint; smooth talkers aren't neccesarily the best people for the job!), then IMNSHO they deserve whatever perils they may encounter.
I have real trouble symapthizing with someone who entrusted their computer to a 14 year old whiz-kid and wound up losing all their data and had components blow up on them shortly afterwards. Even businesses who aren't computer savvy should be able to recognize a snake-oil salesman when they see one coming. They should also have a firm contract, reveiwed by their lawyer if they're large enough to warrant, that spells out exactly what the technician will and will not do, and gives timeframes for completion of work. All too often I've seen incompetent contractors charging hourly rates for weeks on end for a three day job, just because they can't figure it out. Are you paying for someone's learning curve? Have someone stay in the room with them and see what they're donig. If they're reading manuals more than they're working, or if you hear an excess of profanity with little positive result, chances are you're funding their mis-education.
I really don't want to see government, who (from personal experience) have clue #0 about information technology, mandating certification levels for computer stores. While it would be nice to see much of our local competition shut down, it would also add a lot of additional headache to an otherwise low margin, slumping industry.
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