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Mandrake Releases 9.1b1, New Packaging Model
DCowern writes "Mandrake today announced version 9.1 of their distribution. While there are some interesting choices for new packages (like kernel 2.4.21pre2 and XFree86 4.3 beta) the most groundbreaking thing about this release is the way in which they decide which packages are "high priority" for development and inclusion in the standard install. Any registered user at MandrakeClub can vote. Their opinion is that no one knows where development effort needs to be spent better than the end-user." Update: 01/10 19:38 GMT by T : That's "distribution."
To me, that was a damn confusing summary..
What exactly are they talking about?
They brought Linux out from the dusty closets of computer hackers and to the front lines -- of the American economy, that is.
Mandrake is now sold pre-loaded on millions of inexpensive, high-quality computers at Wal-Mart stores country-wide.
Before you diss this newbie-tailored distro, remember that it really was Mandrake, and not Red Hat, Solaris, or Slackware that brought Linux to the masses.
Business Week, Forbes, and the Wall Street Journal all write about Linux based largely in part on the inclusion of Mandrake on many popular-selling computers.
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
You just gotta love these release numbers2.1a
Does anyhow know how Mandrake's doing in regards to solving their money woes?
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Just the day after I downloaded 3 SUSE CD's from a 56K....
There is absolutely, positively NOTHING bad about the RPM. It's all in the tools around it. Have you ever thought what would be so special about *.deb if it wasn't for apt-get ? Right, nothing. And you can have apt-rpm for RedHat.
Next thing you know, they'll be making money.
I think these are the innovations that the linux distros need even more than new drivers, other technical advances.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Personal Strap-On Aircraft for Auction on eBay A What?
the beta comes as a 1 cd download. hopefully this is an omen for 9.1. mandrake has always been a bloated distro. sure, i like all the stuff, but more is not always better. better is better. fewew, better apps are the answer. make OO.org fonts better (RH did), fix up the menus a bit, and streamline a few things. a 1 cd distro has more than enough room fo rall the good stuff (think knoppix). you don't need 17 editors nor do you need 14 mp3 players. mandrake has been the "newbie" distro. it is where i started. and even four years later, it is still my distro of choice. i can tweak it (like any other distro) if needed. one cd is all that's needed.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Don't get me wrong. My favorite distro is still mandrake 8.2. It was excellent, but Mandrake 9 didn't do anything for me. It caused crashes (Grip for whatever reason seamed to lock up the desktop), problems (not working on reiserFS), more crashes (NVidia drivers crash when rendering 3D continuiously), bad organization mistakes (why in the world separate out package installation and removal), and many other things. But I've always liked mandrake and am really hoping that 9.1 clears up the problems and increases the extras including the great. up-to-date, package selection. I support distro's I like which is why I'm part of the mandrake club and I am really hoping this one continues to improve.
I do security
I think not. I doubt millions went to walmart.com and ordered these. Anyone got sales numbers?
Debian has this to. It's called Popularity Contest.
High-Quality? (even the most zealous of Slashdot readers have agreed that these machines are made of bottom-grade components. Certainly usable and functional, but no where near the quality of even a low-end Dell or HP machine).
In stores? (last I checked, these machines were only available from walmart.com)
Amazing! Three errors in one sentence! Your argument is interesting, but you do nothing to aid it by just fabricating supporting points.
I just don't get you mandrake naysayers. Have you tried Mandrake 9.0? You don't have to use KDE or Gnome, it's right there in the install. The following tips will surely change a few of your minds:
.xinitrc file in your home directory. Put "exec icewm", "exec fluxbox" or whatever you like for your window manager in it.
a ke/9.0/i586/Mandrake/RPMS with ../base/hdlist.cz
a ke/9.0/contrib/RPMS with synthesis.hdlist2.cz
1. During installation, select "advanced" installation, rather than the default.
2. Be sure to add "Other Window Managers" in addition to KDE & Gnome
3. Make the selection during install that DOESN'T start X on bootup.
4. After installation, put a
5. use urpmi.remove to get rid of the CD sources for package installation:
urpmi.removemedia "Installation CD 1 (x86) (cdrom1)"
urpmi.removemedia "Installation CD 2 (x86) (cdrom2)"
urpmi.removemedia "International CD (x86) (cdrom3)"
and replace them with an FTP source:
urpmi.addmedia base-ftp ftp://mirrors.secsup.org/pub/linux/mandrake/Mandr
and add the contrib source:
urpmi.addmedia contrib ftp://mirrors.secsup.org/pub/linux/mandrake/Mandr
so it never ever prompts you for CDs (assuming you've got broadband)
Add the plf software source:
urpmi.addmedia plf ftp://plf.chem.yorku.ca/pub/plf/9.0 with hdlist.cz
Now, you can install just about anything you like with a simple "urpmi {package name}". For instance, if you want mutt, and you're also missing a lot of its dependencies, "urpmi mutt" will not only get mutt, but it will first get whatever is needed for mutt to run. FreeBSD addicts can surely appreciate that (ala the freebsd ports system).
I've been running MDK9.0 since the day it was out of beta and have never had these buggy problems that some of you complain about. No window manager problems (I use fluxbox), no nvidia problems (I've played many a LAN party with my box, never had a crash during crunch time yet), no problems of any kind.
You boneheads should give it a chance before blasting it. Don't try to use it as if it were some kind of RedHat clone, it's moved way beyond that in the last couple of years.
Here are some screenshots of 9.1b:
Screenshot one
Screenshot two
Screenshot three
Screenshot four
Screenshot five
I think it's looking quite sweet... Can not wait for the download to finish...
No, i don't like sigs...
to remind everyone who has used or is interested in using Mandrake to become a Mandrakeclub member? The Slashdot community has been pretty critical of Mandrake recently, so here is your chance to become a member and do something about the distro you spend so much time bitching about.
.?
Otherwise, people might get the idea that slashdoters are a bunch of whining freeloaders who complain for the very sake of complaining.
Er, or is that me . .
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
What I'd really like to see is something in RPM that, rather than merely telling me that it needs libfoobar-5.1.mdk (and leaving me to flip back to my browser, hunt it down, download it, attempt to install it, find I need Yet More dependencies, repeat adnauseam), it offers to retrieve it from rpmfind.speakeasy.net and install it - I don't want to have to keep downloading and satisfying dependencies by hand, I'd rather have it semi-automated. (Not fully - having it do everything is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot with a bazooka.)
This sig no verb.
I wish your post would get modded to 5 so that other slashdotters would see it. You will not regret being a member. The mirror script makes urpmi setup very easy and painless. Being able to vote for your own rpms is great (I had a starcontrol 2 package rpmed for me, and it runs great)!
And now . . . I can vote for my favorite rpms in order to make sure they get into the next release. Things are just getting better and better (I am a Silver member for the next 600 days).
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
--I think if any of the big guys can get a one cd retail version that can be put on the shelf for ten dollars that linux will "take off" for joe average. Reality is reality, "money" has to come into the picture in a much bigger way or linux is gonna stay an also ran, no matter how good it gets. Geeks who are totally happy to spend all the time in the world tweaking and downloading etc are less than 1% users very broadly speaking. That's the choice, keep it geek only or not, it's binary.
That and as soon as some of the bigger box makers like dell start making their "home peecees" come with at LEAST an installed dual boot, or have an OS option choice sitting right on the showfloor that is reflected in a cheaper fairer price for the same exact hardware config over to the "best electronic buys in your office world city" store.
A ten buck (or so) "home surfer" with some other stuff that's pretty cool" distro release would be nice. If the clone companies can do it, so can the distro releasers, making it one cd will allow at least a single small paperback manual included, written in ENGLISH (or language of choice that is not acronym based geek technogarble to most people) to be included in that price. I mean really, man pages need actual translation for most people. They "work" for geeks, that's it, kinda sorta.
Releases needed, IMO --> "home surfer", "small business that is an office", "enterprise business that is an office and also needs to be a host/server on a whopper scale".
Scale it up like that, add extra cds for what might be wanted "Games! cd" whatever, "all kinza artsy fartsy stuff" cd, "mega media enjoyment" cd, "office crap up the wazoo" cd, and charge more then, there's another ten bucks. The competiton is roughly one hundred dollars, and it's not that hard to have enough apps included at even the ten buck range to make it pretty spiffy, but don't overload it as well, too much is as bad as not enough. People get into new stuff this way crawl>walk>run.
Adjust 'support' accordingly. Have a generic optional CD that has tons more generic apps, and sell it separately from the other releases. Keep ALL of them under the pricing of the borg. And make SURE that what's included *works*,ESPECIALLY getting online and NOT GETTING OWNED WITHIN 15 MINUTES, and release less stuff, but make it better quality, and upgrades as flawlessly as possible - release to release - without breaking the last generation install.
Prices have dropped for the coupla big dog releasers,the releases themselves are very very good, this is GOOD, now make it BETTER and get that stuff on the shelf and on the new PC boxes.
signed, joe consumer who wants to do more than just tweak forever and ever to make things work.
Of course, I like manually installing RPMs; it's really not that much of a hassle for me, and it means I always know exactly what's being installed and why. If there were an automated system, it'd probably just display a progress bar saying "Satisfying Dependencies" and not tell me anything useful, which would be annoying.
urpmi in mandrake does exactly that.
..really, that's cool, didn't know that-and neither do the other 50 million people who buy peecees at the store. I don't see it on the shelf at the two stores locally that sell software. Get it on the shelf there for ten bucks I'll try it, maybe the other 50 million might try it. One cd good, 5 or ten bucks easy to buy, better. Easy to uninstall and install the best. I'm on a modem, downloading mega gobbles of stuff ain't happening. It's already a hassle keeping up with releases and patches as it is now, let alone downloading the entire shebang every few months and then restarting the patch stuff. Too many releases, too many distros, and the stoopid desktop manager wars is beyond nutso. Not spending two weeks downloading just to "try something out" when for ten bucks as an impulse buy at the local store I might grab it. The KISS principle.
.xx67ab.9x whatever thing are just as clueless. Now I don't mind tracking down a clone OS maker online,and ordering online,and trying this and that out, it's SEMI fun to me, but 49,999,999 other people DO mind doing that and ain't gonna do it. And I'm not gonna pay full release distro price for a set of cds-or even one cd- to try them out at 20, or 30 and up a pop price when there's dozens and dozens of release distros out there, that's hundreds of dollars just to "tryout" the top dozen to see what I may like or not. Not_happening_ever. 5 or ten bucks home tryout surfer version, sure,maybe at least, 20 to 60 dollars per distro? Nope! And then rinse lather repeat every 6 months? huh? It's not gonna happen, not in any big way. If non-geek joe and josephine average pooter users people spend their time downloading it's gonna be 99% music or pictures. I know it, you know it, they know it, everyone knows it, so we'll take that as a gimmee. This OS or that OS has to be in the store cheap on the shelf or preinstalled, one or the other or both, and it can't cost so close to the borg in price that people go " Huh? WTF is this $%^7, why should I do this I can barely run what I got, downloading patches is hard enough and a hassle, I don't even know what this crap is". But for ten bucks, MAYBE they might try it, a "try it out" version, especially if there's a way to have a total OS install "undo" button to mash. Knoppix is sorta like that now, and it's a GREAT IDEA, it lets someone try before buy (install) in a way. I can assure you, I know plenty of people who would try various other OS's if it wasn't such a hassle to repartition, have another hard drive, etc because they don't want to lose what they got already. It's a valid concern. If any distro had a "temporarily install it to see if ya like it and it's easy to remove and won't break anything " option button to mash when ya stuck the CD in it would be a *good thing*. People I know I've encouraged to "try" something besides the borg have a point there, they are afraid they are gonna lose whatever they got now, and they sure might. As a consequyence "new and improved das peoples' distro du jour" still hasn't caught on that well, despite being 'out there' for ten years plus. Major clueskis there. I will tell you it's real real hard to get people to even try a new OS unless you just go over and do it for them, then you are on the hook forever as the free support guy.. They MIGHT try it themselves if it was cheap enough and easy enough and on the shelf in plain sight and could be easily "undone", like clicking to remove any other app, because that's what people think it is, another app.. I can't tell any distro guys how to do that either,get it in the stores on the shelves cheap, not my business gig. And with dozens of distro "orgs" out there, all claiming to me "they are the best, the other guys are lamers and suck", well?????
There's software programming and development,serious hobbyist involvement, then there's retail selling of same in mass quantities, two ENTIRELY different things.
I'm in between, neither a hard core software programming geek, nor "joe average just use whatever came on the box when it was bought" person. I got a real good perspective because I'm so close to the middle there I can see both sides points of view. Reluctant lazy computer users relying on brand loyalty and some big company to keep them happy are sorta clueless, and ubernerds thinking everyone is gonna drool at their latest patched and 'skinned' version
My opinion is you simply can NOT assume everyone else in the known universe is a hard core software programming geek and will jump through any serious hassle hoops to try "anyone your's" OS version out. Very small numbers will, that's all you're gonna get with that mindset and business model.
That ain't a dis to freebsd or linux any other OS flavor or to any person, just noting "real whirrled" reality a little. Human beings develop inertia, and brand loyalty that they will stick with even though what they are using ain't the best or cheapest. If that wasn't true there wouldn't even exist the term "brand loyalty".
Note that there's still approx. 3 months before a scheduled release, so I'd expect the kernel and XFree86 versions to be later.
/etc/fstab or whatever... hence, a distributionthat appeals to new users, and also can be used by developers.
The package management tools have also been evolving fast -- if you follow the cooker list, you'll know that the gtk+ 2 version of rpmgrake is out, and it's much faster and improved. (and there's an update to urpmi, too).
At this point, urpmi is approaching the usefulness and robustness of apt-get, albeit with slightly fewer features -- e.g. no "suggested other packages". It's possible those willl come later, at least in principle: there's nothing inherent about RPM that prevents such features.
If 9.0 crashed for you, the right thing to do was to report the problems one by one, and help get them fixed for everyone -- not wait 3 months and then whine on slashdot that there were problems. Maybe the Mandrake developers didn't have your hardware. Maybe the XFree86 developers didn't have a machine with your video card, soundcard and disk controller, and couldn't reproduce the problem.
In general I think Mandrake is going in a good direction: making a Linux distribution that's easy to administer and use, but that is powerful enough for experienced users and admins (e.g. distributed package management, command-line configuration possible), has reliable automated package downloading and installation (including dependencies), and yet that uses the standard config files for everything, so that you can still administer it the "old fashioned way" be editing
Some of Mandrake's tools (e.g. draksync, a graphical front end to rsync that can use ssh) could do with being moved to sourceforge or somewhere and being more widely used.
Having a Linux distribution that most people can install in 20 minutes to an hour, with no difficult questions, makes a big difference. People moving from MS Windows are often used to reinstalling frequently: this way, wen they can't fix a problem, instead of going back to Windows, they go reinstall Linux, until they learn more about reconfiguring and fixing stuff. And if they never learn how to reconfigure, and always reinstall, it's still a win if it doesn't crash, is Free, open, and they can have a say in what packages are available.
Live barefoot!
free engravings/woodcuts
..I have to admit I don't live in any major urban area nor visit and shop much. I honestly don't know what's on the shelf any longer at any of these various electronics stores. I got a chinamart and a small office supply to look at locally. If lycoris is on the shelf there at Fry's for 20$ that's better than nuthing,it's a good thing, I hope they do well, or maybe decide to merge efforts with another company, which is a better idea, IMO.
Best I can do in an individual effort is to encourage my real world and cyber world friends to try something "new" out, which I already do. Every time they get nailed with the daily virus, they get a polite razz. When people tell me this or that is "too hard", best I can say is to just freeking try getting out of first gear with your computer. I tell them you would at least learn how to hit all the gears on your car, your brane ain't gonna explode to give it the same effort with a computer. You got more than first gear and "engine stop". I know it's a real tough nut to crack, I can see that readily, so all I can say to the various distro guys is hang in there, less releases but better quality,get togerther and see if ya'all can't AT LEAST pick A desktop and some way to update, pick a freeking set of normal apps and make sure they work well,and keep it very reasonable in cost, and do your best to get the pc makers to at least give their customers an option. And if that means to some of the programmers and orgs and companies etc, who contribute code for profit or free, to swallowing some pride and going to help out the closest existing to your point of view major effort instead of "yet another effort-wasting branch" of this or that OS or app, then do it. Just do it. From the outside looking in, there's way, way, way more than enough "distros" and "apps" out there that strive to do the same exact thing. That's about it.
I like the voting model going in the parent article. I'd like to see that concept go to some sort of even higher level, to consolidate some of the branches back into a stronger effort. Maybe that's impossible, I just don't know, but the extremes are that-extremes- one OS and one function app ain't enough, 50 lebenty dozen is "too much". Cooperation is not a cuss word, it actually "works".
Railroads got to be a good deal from standardizing on at least a track size and width.