Posted by
michael
on from the includes-two-of-every-application dept.
An anonymous reader notes that OFB has a short blurb about a new Linux distribution, Ark Linux, based on Red Hat and chasing the ever-elusive goal of being "easy to use for the masses".
This is how Mandrake started.
by
FelixCat
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
It's a pretty interesting environment which allows new companies (distributions) to get an instant running start by basing a new distribution on someone elses. It reminds me of the whole "on the shoulders of giants" saying.
Used to produce BeroLinux
by
wolruf
·
· Score: 5, Informative
The best way to make linux "easy to use for the masses" is NOT going to be by adding yet another distribution of it. Personally it would help if all the "desktop linux" companies pooled their resources and made one, standard linux desktop running on one, standard gui interface. Adding another linux distro just makes things more confusing for the masses.
More choice isn't always good. I would rather see ONE good desktop linux package than ten substandard ones.
--
Stanley Feinbaum, professional journalist and master debater! God bless the USA!
Re:counterproductive
by
svvampy
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
This is not an interesting comment, it is woefully repeated trite. This sort of comment is dredged up any time there is any thread about Linux and the Desktop.
Why don't we just get all of the soft-drink manufacturers to get together to make ONE good drink to rule them all. While we're at it when are the clothing companies going to get together and mass market grey jump suits so we can really move into the twenty-first century?
Re:counterproductive
by
Raiford
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Here's the deal. RedHat Linux isn't anymore difficult to install than WinXP (or really any other previous) incarnation of Windows. There really isn't a MS Windows installation for the masses if you really get down to it. If you want the masses to use Linux then you will have to have more computer manufacturers that will bundle Linux already on the machine.
-- "player 4 hit player 1 with 0 stroms"
Re:Four years and half too late.
by
Junta
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Wow, 'our moderator' singular, fixed position. My how the times change.
-- XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
More fragmentation
by
I+Am+The+Owl
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Is another "easy to use" Linux distro what we really need? I think the last thing I want to do is be able to take a program off of my Mandrake box, take it over to my Ark box and not be able to run it because they are two different distros.
And also, who has not seen this "make linux easier for the desktop" thing before? There are about a million and one distros who purport to do this. Why does everyone feel the need to reinvent the wheel?
--
--sdem
Re:More fragmentation
by
Speare
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
There are about a million and one distros who purport to do this. Why does everyone feel the need to reinvent the wheel?
Though I can't speak for the producers of ArkLinux, I will speak as someone who has been involved with them early on.
I think one of the prime motivations is to act as a 'concept' vehicle to offer innovations to the larger distributions. In Detroit, it's often difficult to get the Big Three automakers to really cut new ground and try something risky. However, they love to put a bunch of wacky ideas into concept cars, and then slowly evolve their best ideas into real products for the street.
The well-known distros like Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake and Debian are analagous to the Big Three automakers in the Linux distribution space. However, they're not in a high-markup tangible goods market like Chevrolet, GM and Ford. Thus, they can't afford to make their own 'concept' tools and services to help their own evolution.
I see all of the smaller distros as helping the evolution by giving each great idea (and tons of mediocre and bad ideas) a public forum in which they can prove themselves, and be cherry-picked by the powerhouses of Linux adoption: the Big Distros.
And frankly, Detroit isn't being robbed of available talent whenever some kid puts together a supercharged Dodge Charger with neon all over it. Likewise, Red Hat doesn't sweat it if some afficianados take a different path and try a few new things.
-- [.sig file not found ]
Edison's Approach
by
Flamesplash
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
If you try enough "different" things you'll eventually come upon one that works, or you'll die.:p
99% perspiration, 1% inspiration.
Are there 99 not-for-the-masses widely distro'd linux's yet?
-- "Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
You better hurry and volunteer to help with Ark Linux. There's only two positions available. There's a catch, however. You must have experience in python, awk, squeak, moo, bark, and oink.;)
how to make linux desktop good for masses
by
elliotj
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
It seems to me that this debate will rage on and on about which desktop is the best etc etc. I don't know much about this ark linux offering but I do like the idea of someone else taking a crack at it. its a worthy goal to reach for.
it seems to me that the only way this will be achieved is by a distro making some very draconian decisions about what to include. I for one would be delighted to see a very lightweight distro that did just a few things very well.
what I mean is if there was a distro that included a web browser, mail client, open office, mp3 player & a terminal program, and they all looked good and were consistent in look, feel and function, then this would be a major step forward. you dont need to include much more than that to have a successful easy to use distro. no point in including tons of compilers and dev tools if you want to make something easy for non-techies to use.
hopefully this is a goal that will be reached someday. it is so possible to do that I'm really surprised to see so many failed attempts. All I'm suggesting is a lightweight distro with a select few apps that are heavily polished and work well. If you did that you could gain a following and maybe get enough credibility and respect that other app developers would code to your human interface guidelines.
just a thought.
Re:good luck
by
DarthWiggle
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
That's just not true. You're confusing the paradigm with the method of implementing it. What's so wrong with having a coherent system of sharing system resources such as a clipboard, fonts, UI widgets, etc? Nothing. A computer should be easy to use. That may, of course, include "easy to customize."
The fact that Microsoft has been alternately lazy and incoherent in implementing its model of "ease of use" shouldn't sway other developers from trying to accomplish the same goal in a more effective manner.
Hell, I've installed a number of Linux distributions. I've tweaked them. I've fiddled with them. But not one has even approached the ease with whick I can accomplish tasks using Win2k. Perhaps on a technical level, Linux is more stable, more customizable, and more secure than Windows, and certainly the open-source ideal is admirable, but when you consider task-based computing where the main focus is on getting work done (which is all that matters to most end users), the mishmash of current Linux builds is just a pain.
I am NOT trashing Linux. It's an amazing accomplishment, and the improvements in UI and functionality (both at the command line and in the UI) over the last few years are encouraging. But there's work to be done.
Yes, the announcements on slashdot, osnews, ofb.biz and pclinuxonline came as a total surprise to us.
We aren't 100% ready for the user base we're trying to address yet (there are a couple of installer bugs left, and we're lacking a good internet access config tool -- that's why it's called an alpha), so we tried to remain low profile [and didn't put much effort into the website] -- but now that we've been taken to the public, there's not much of a point in continuing along those lines.
There's also not much of a point in putting up screenshots if you know the look will change before you intend to tell the public.
Who knows, maybe we'll find some new contributors (maybe even for website design and graphics?;) )
Enough, that is, of distributions that are "for the masses". It should be clear to everyone by now that this phrase is utterly meaningless, since it encompasses a huge number of possible approaches to the problem of making lusers happy with Unix. I propose that this phrase and all similarly generic phrases be officially declared Fucking Useless, and anyone who uses them be savagely beaten until they come up with a particular differentiating feature for their distribution.
So what is special about the distro of the week? Hardware autodetection? Careful customization of packages to provide a uniform and sensible default UI? Good paper documentation?
Oh, Jesus, if I just stop there, someone will moderate this up. Do you people realize how pathetic you are, that you're reading this? Writing it was bad enough (shame, shame, shame!), but reading it... can't get read again. Come on, eat me! Burn, karma, burn! SLASHDTO DEITORS SUX0000RZ1!!1! Bibbity bibbity bibbity!
Re:Four years and half too late.
by
Bero
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Ark Linux did not exist four and a half years ago. In fact, we didn't want to go public yet - we don't like preannouncing vaporware (though the current alpha version is actually usable, if you can overlook the rough edges) -- so there wasn't much need to update the website etc. until someone decided to notify the media of our existance.
The 4 1/2 years reference from the original poster refers to the creation of the Mandrake distribution, which started with similar goals, but developed into a different direction.
Mandrake is a good distribution, and suitable for desktop use if you know what you're doing a bit - but Mandrake is an all-purpose operating system, and therefore too complicated for many newbies (this may be hard for us geeks to understand, but people do get confused at the notion of 50 editors, 4 desktop environments and 20 MP3 players).
Ark Linux will focus on being a home user OS, and just that. IMO, if you want to please too many totally different needs at the same time (and "server", "techie workstation" and "newbie home user" are 3 _very_ different needs), you have to make too many tradeoffs.
Comment removed
by
account_deleted
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Take off the tinfoil and a quick read of the site..
- 4 clicks to install = good - giving simplification a shot = good - developed own installer (i guess) = good
- no info about what to do with an iso = bad - explained in terms of red hat = bad - unanswered questions on page = bad - needs:
screenshots
info on hardware requirements
info on supported locales (or is it just English)
info for developers on "why develop for distro x"
needs a "why use our distro" page for users
- might be interesting if you could do work just by popping CD in (without partitioning or doing a big install).. or is that what it does? dunno.
Perhaps on a technical level, Linux is more stable, more customizable, and more secure than Windows, and certainly the open-source ideal is admirable, but when you consider task-based computing where the main focus is on getting work done (which is all that matters to most end users), the mishmash of current Linux builds is just a pain.
I agree with you here. Technically, Linux has owned Windows for years but we're only now beginning to make inroads that target end-users.
the mishmash of current Linux builds is just a pain.
This is the point I want to discuss. While today, the different distros are probably confusing to and alienating potential end-users (due to their task-based nature), tomorrow those "confusing distros" could become "viable inter-operating alternatives". That means competition and competition means jobs because multiple companies are able to capture niches of the market. I like Red Hat 8.0 for its easy install and slick GUI. I like SuSe for its easy install and snappier GUI. I like Debian for its packages and I like FreeBSD for its security. See, each one of these distros fills a niche. They scratch an itch for each individual customer.
What we have to work hardest on is overcoming the real barrier-to-entry: mindshare. Microsoft has ruled the roost for so long now that most people don't even know they have options and the non-geek people that have heard of Linux think it's a "hacker's" OS.
You're right. We've still got a lot of work to do, but it's not just writing code...it's changing minds. And you don't have to be a code-hacker to educate people about their options.
--K.
-- Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
Re:Ark Linux web site is a farce with pr0n on it
by
Bero
·
· Score: 5, Informative
What you've seen is the result of someone from the IP 68.13.232.26 (ip-68-13-232-26.ok.ok.cox.net), located in Atlanta, using Phoneix 0.5 on Windows 2000, abusing the fact that we've tried using an open support system.
The idea behind the system was simple - anyone can ask questions, and anyone can reply. Pretty much like a Wiki. So in a way, we got hacked - but since there was no protection for this area of the website, I wouldn't call it a security problem in the distribution. And we learned from it - the support system is now censoring bad posts. I find it sad that these things are necessary, when ideologically, we'd much rather fight censorship.
We made one mistake - namely that we trusted people wouldn't abuse it. This guy used malicious HTML tags to redirect the support system to his crap site.
Dear "hacker", you can be proud - you just circumvented nonexistant security blocks! I'll vote for you at the l33t h4x0r of the month contest.
Red Hat 8.0 *IS* ``easy for the masses''
by
Dr.+Zowie
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
I don't know why the hell I'm even typing this -- it's doomed to get buried in the avalanche of other posts and never get seen...
I have installed and am using Red Hat 8.0. It was
very easy to install, and is very easy to use. It was more than four mouse clicks, but their installer is really smooth. If you just want a quick, easy install you click one of four or five radio buttons for the type of machine you want (server, workstation, etc.); but you can also switch all the packages independently.
The OS seems to come pretty well secured by default; and of course there are the requisite "control panel" windows (which actually work!) and OpenOffice links. The terminal is buried waaaay down in the menu structure -- a bit disconcerting at first. But most of the little apps that we all know and love are available in the pull-up red hat menu already.
They've eliminated the notion of window manager from the basic graphic OS install -- there's no reference to it at all. You can switch window managers, but you have to know unix to do it. That, IMHO, is a Good decision.
It seems to me that Ark Linux is a tempest in a teapot -- Red Hat already did all the work; these guys can't possibly be doing much more than smoothing over the install and putting a different theme on the desktop.
Slashdot Mirror
It's a pretty interesting environment which allows new companies (distributions) to get an instant running start by basing a new distribution on someone elses. It reminds me of the whole "on the shoulders of giants" saying.
See BeroLinux on SF which was then integrated to Linux Mandrake PR
wolruf@gmail.com
The best way to make linux "easy to use for the masses" is NOT going to be by adding yet another distribution of it. Personally it would help if all the "desktop linux" companies pooled their resources and made one, standard linux desktop running on one, standard gui interface. Adding another linux distro just makes things more confusing for the masses.
More choice isn't always good. I would rather see ONE good desktop linux package than ten substandard ones.
Stanley Feinbaum, professional journalist and master debater! God bless the USA!
Wow, 'our moderator' singular, fixed position. My how the times change.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
And also, who has not seen this "make linux easier for the desktop" thing before? There are about a million and one distros who purport to do this. Why does everyone feel the need to reinvent the wheel?
--sdem
If you try enough "different" things you'll eventually come upon one that works, or you'll die. :p
99% perspiration, 1% inspiration.
Are there 99 not-for-the-masses widely distro'd linux's yet?
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
You better hurry and volunteer to help with Ark Linux. There's only two positions available. There's a catch, however. You must have experience in python, awk, squeak, moo, bark, and oink. ;)
...oOOo..'(_)'..oOOo...
It seems to me that this debate will rage on and on about which desktop is the best etc etc. I don't know much about this ark linux offering but I do like the idea of someone else taking a crack at it. its a worthy goal to reach for.
it seems to me that the only way this will be achieved is by a distro making some very draconian decisions about what to include. I for one would be delighted to see a very lightweight distro that did just a few things very well.
what I mean is if there was a distro that included a web browser, mail client, open office, mp3 player & a terminal program, and they all looked good and were consistent in look, feel and function, then this would be a major step forward. you dont need to include much more than that to have a successful easy to use distro. no point in including tons of compilers and dev tools if you want to make something easy for non-techies to use.
hopefully this is a goal that will be reached someday. it is so possible to do that I'm really surprised to see so many failed attempts. All I'm suggesting is a lightweight distro with a select few apps that are heavily polished and work well. If you did that you could gain a following and maybe get enough credibility and respect that other app developers would code to your human interface guidelines.
just a thought.
The fact that Microsoft has been alternately lazy and incoherent in implementing its model of "ease of use" shouldn't sway other developers from trying to accomplish the same goal in a more effective manner.
Hell, I've installed a number of Linux distributions. I've tweaked them. I've fiddled with them. But not one has even approached the ease with whick I can accomplish tasks using Win2k. Perhaps on a technical level, Linux is more stable, more customizable, and more secure than Windows, and certainly the open-source ideal is admirable, but when you consider task-based computing where the main focus is on getting work done (which is all that matters to most end users), the mishmash of current Linux builds is just a pain.
I am NOT trashing Linux. It's an amazing accomplishment, and the improvements in UI and functionality (both at the command line and in the UI) over the last few years are encouraging. But there's work to be done.
No screenshots??!?
;) )
Yes, the announcements on slashdot, osnews, ofb.biz and pclinuxonline came as a total surprise to us.
We aren't 100% ready for the user base we're trying to address yet (there are a couple of installer bugs left, and we're lacking a good internet access config tool -- that's why it's called an alpha), so we tried to remain low profile [and didn't put much effort into the website] -- but now that we've been taken to the public, there's not much of a point in continuing along those lines.
There's also not much of a point in putting up screenshots if you know the look will change before you intend to tell the public.
Who knows, maybe we'll find some new contributors (maybe even for website design and graphics?
Enough, that is, of distributions that are "for the masses". It should be clear to everyone by now that this phrase is utterly meaningless, since it encompasses a huge number of possible approaches to the problem of making lusers happy with Unix. I propose that this phrase and all similarly generic phrases be officially declared Fucking Useless, and anyone who uses them be savagely beaten until they come up with a particular differentiating feature for their distribution.
So what is special about the distro of the week? Hardware autodetection? Careful customization of packages to provide a uniform and sensible default UI? Good paper documentation?
Oh, Jesus, if I just stop there, someone will moderate this up. Do you people realize how pathetic you are, that you're reading this? Writing it was bad enough (shame, shame, shame!), but reading it... can't get read again. Come on, eat me! Burn, karma, burn! SLASHDTO DEITORS SUX0000RZ1!!1! Bibbity bibbity bibbity!
Ark Linux did not exist four and a half years ago.
In fact, we didn't want to go public yet - we don't like preannouncing vaporware (though the current alpha version is actually usable, if you can overlook the rough edges) -- so there wasn't much need to update the website etc. until someone decided to notify the media of our existance.
The 4 1/2 years reference from the original poster refers to the creation of the Mandrake distribution, which started with similar goals, but developed into a different direction.
Mandrake is a good distribution, and suitable for desktop use if you know what you're doing a bit - but Mandrake is an all-purpose operating system, and therefore too complicated for many newbies (this may be hard for us geeks to understand, but people do get confused at the notion of 50 editors, 4 desktop environments and 20 MP3 players).
Ark Linux will focus on being a home user OS, and just that.
IMO, if you want to please too many totally different needs at the same time (and "server", "techie workstation" and "newbie home user" are 3 _very_ different needs), you have to make too many tradeoffs.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Take off the tinfoil and a quick read of the site..
- 4 clicks to install = good
- giving simplification a shot = good
- developed own installer (i guess) = good
- no info about what to do with an iso = bad
- explained in terms of red hat = bad
- unanswered questions on page = bad
- needs:
screenshots
info on hardware requirements
info on supported locales (or is it just English)
info for developers on "why develop for distro x"
needs a "why use our distro" page for users
- might be interesting if you could do work just by popping CD in (without partitioning or doing a big install).. or is that what it does? dunno.
I agree with you here. Technically, Linux has owned Windows for years but we're only now beginning to make inroads that target end-users.
This is the point I want to discuss. While today, the different distros are probably confusing to and alienating potential end-users (due to their task-based nature), tomorrow those "confusing distros" could become "viable inter-operating alternatives". That means competition and competition means jobs because multiple companies are able to capture niches of the market. I like Red Hat 8.0 for its easy install and slick GUI. I like SuSe for its easy install and snappier GUI. I like Debian for its packages and I like FreeBSD for its security. See, each one of these distros fills a niche. They scratch an itch for each individual customer.
What we have to work hardest on is overcoming the real barrier-to-entry: mindshare. Microsoft has ruled the roost for so long now that most people don't even know they have options and the non-geek people that have heard of Linux think it's a "hacker's" OS.
You're right. We've still got a lot of work to do, but it's not just writing code...it's changing minds. And you don't have to be a code-hacker to educate people about their options.
--K.
Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
What you've seen is the result of someone from the IP 68.13.232.26 (ip-68-13-232-26.ok.ok.cox.net), located in Atlanta, using Phoneix 0.5 on Windows 2000, abusing the fact that we've tried using an open support system.
The idea behind the system was simple - anyone can ask questions, and anyone can reply. Pretty much like a Wiki.
So in a way, we got hacked - but since there was no protection for this area of the website, I wouldn't call it a security problem in the distribution. And we learned from it - the support system is now censoring bad posts. I find it sad that these things are necessary, when ideologically, we'd much rather fight censorship.
We made one mistake - namely that we trusted people wouldn't abuse it. This guy used malicious HTML tags to redirect the support system to his crap site.
Dear "hacker", you can be proud - you just circumvented nonexistant security blocks! I'll vote for you at the l33t h4x0r of the month contest.
I have installed and am using Red Hat 8.0. It was very easy to install, and is very easy to use. It was more than four mouse clicks, but their installer is really smooth. If you just want a quick, easy install you click one of four or five radio buttons for the type of machine you want (server, workstation, etc.); but you can also switch all the packages independently.
The OS seems to come pretty well secured by default; and of course there are the requisite "control panel" windows (which actually work!) and OpenOffice links. The terminal is buried waaaay down in the menu structure -- a bit disconcerting at first. But most of the little apps that we all know and love are available in the pull-up red hat menu already.
They've eliminated the notion of window manager from the basic graphic OS install -- there's no reference to it at all. You can switch window managers, but you have to know unix to do it. That, IMHO, is a Good decision.
It seems to me that Ark Linux is a tempest in a teapot -- Red Hat already did all the work; these guys can't possibly be doing much more than smoothing over the install and putting a different theme on the desktop.