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Software Libre: DoHS Switches, Commerce Slights

An anonymous reader writes "Some excellent Pigdog investigative journalism: Apparently, The state department is trying to block international support of OSS and Free (Libre) Software. See also this InfoWorld article." Contrast that with this NewsForge report of a switch from Windows 2000 to Linux+Oracle at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. They picked a good week for it.

27 of 183 comments (clear)

  1. They will fail by PD · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The free world won the cold war because an open society is more efficient than a closed one.

    Free software will win on the same basis. Sure, the US is open compared to most of the countries in the world, but it's not as open as open source.

    1. Re:They will fail by goatasaur · · Score: 1, Insightful

      At the risk of being OT...

      "Hey look, a Starbucks opened up down the street."

      I assume you're making an ironic musing on capitalization and corporations. Starbucks started like every other chain -- with a single store. What made them popular was the fact that they sell a GOOD product.

      corporate != shit

      Sometimes, but not always.

      --
      ~D:
    2. Re:They will fail by LordNimon · · Score: 1, Insightful
      What made them popular was the fact that they sell a GOOD product.

      Have you actually tasted their coffee?

      --
      And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
      To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    3. Re:They will fail by PD · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, it proved that eating potato chips is more efficient than eating cabbage.

      Can you tell that I mock your ideas? Open is a more general idea than capitalist. Capitalism in a closed society is called fascism.

    4. Re:They will fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The Cold War was responsible for some true innovation from both parties. So far, all that Open Source groups have done is follow after the Closed and mimic their accomplishments. Aside from your philosophical stance, which I agree with, you need to make a product that can and will compete with the likes of Microsoft. You can't keep crying anti-trust. There are genuine flaws in the design of your wares, and they need to be addressed.

    5. Re:They will fail by urbazewski · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The cold war cost billions of dollars in real resources. It was a huge tax on the populations of all countries involved, contributed to massive environmental damage, and led to military support, arms and training for numerous guerilla organizations that either inflicted suffering on their own people (Honduras and Guatemala) or that turned out to be ill considered allies (like the Taliban).

      While the behavior of those corporations seeking to protect their monopoly/oligopoly is unlikely to lead to wasted resources on the same scale, tremendous inefficiencies can be caused by, and I would argue, have laready been caused by, the strategic actions taken by the producers of proprietary software. It's not just the final outcome that matters.

      --
      foldplay your photos won't know what hit them.
    6. Re:They will fail by SubtleNuance · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, one of the reasons the "free world" "won" the cold war because North America has never hosted a modern war. Rebuilding Russia and much of Eurpoe has occupied those peoples - this complete lack of recognition of the Place in History of the CCCP and the hostile acts by the US against it (assaulting the idiology and provoking (participating) in an arms race) needs to be considered when discussing Communism Vs. Capitalism in the second half of 20th century.

      The US presently has an astounding public debt (hey, have a look at what Shrub is doing wrt spending/debt -- hint: it aint gettin' better). This debt is used to compensate for any contraction of the free market, essentially, when times are 'bad' the debt balloons as the Plutocrats see to it that the 'free market succeeds' "see, once again, the market saves" - building debt and calling it success is a little silly.

      What *WILL* happen is that this debt, will collapse onto the US. Both the private (your household) and public (state/federal) debt.

      USofAmerica a very unsustainable economic system -- (i wont even mention the problem with American Consumerism and its effects on the Environment in the discussion (unsustainable/deadly/ridiculous consumerism had to be CREATED in order for the US economy to 'explode' to 'compete' with USSR. The planet has its limits, not everyone is going to be able to consume like USofAmericans, eventually, saner policy will prevail to combat real problems (global warming, mass extinction due to habitat loss, etc)

      Basically, time will tell... Americans never fail to amaze me when they look so narrowly at Reality and declare the US Model of "Society" the best thing ever.. in reality, it has had some circumstantial support, things that will not always exist in order to 'prop it up'.... and when that happens, when your pride has to be swallowed as you realize your precious 'system' has some serious faults, I hope for all-our-sake you arrogant warmongers dont start WWIII in a mass-hysteria jingoist crusade. (think hitler && germany)

    7. Re:They will fail by Angst+Badger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure, the US is open compared to most of the countries in the world, but it's not as open as open source.

      I hear this a lot from Americans. (Don't get your nationalist knickers in a wad; by accident of birth, I'm one of you, too.) The problem is that it is only a half-truth. If by "most of the countries in the world" you mean to include Brunei, Madagascar, and the Sudan, well, sure. But compared to the rest of the industrial democracies, it's not that clear-cut.

      "Freedom" isn't a monolithic measurement, except to nationalist politicians. There are quite a few things I can do in various western European countries that I can't do in the United States. The converse is also true. For example, what Americans refer to as First and Fourth Amendment rights are considerably more open in some countries, while the American Second Amendment is pretty unusual for countries not ruled by hereditary warlords.

      For my tastes, Germany is a much freer place. Someone who likes to own guns or is a Scientologist would probably feel differently. While it would certainly be nice if there were a most free or most open society, the truth is that you must ask "free and open in which ways?"

      --
      Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    8. Re:They will fail by swb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Have you been to a good local coffee shop? One with atmosphere, great coffee mixes, menu & good service?

      Been to plenty with good coffee, good atmosphere and a few with decent sweets. But ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THEM have anything approaching good service. They all have the same orange-haired, pierced-nose alterna-whatever trendanistas "working" there. They're rude, slow and usually can't make change or do anything other than take breaks well.

      It's no better at Starbucks or Caribou or any other chain -- its like you can't make coffee unless you're over 45 with "Flo" embroidered on your dress or under 30 with more safety pins in your lip than I have in my whole house and hair the shade of a warning sign.

      Besides, buying coffee at the store is dumb to begin with. The markup is like 2000% or something. A pound of decent beans is $6 and makes enough coffee to keep me wired for a week. A single cup at any coffee place is like $3.

    9. Re:They will fail by vonWoland · · Score: 5, Insightful
      O.K., only if you go to grad. school in economics where the first thing you will be told is to forget all the myths you were taught in Econ 101.

      Yes, a product can sell when people desire it, but that is not the same thing as the product being any good, or anyone needing that product. Don't belive me? Well you may be shocked to hear that ghasp cigarettes sell quite well, though they are neither a good product nor particularly usefull.

      Furthermore, you go to any local coffehouse outside of the Midwest U.S., and see if what they think of your Starbucks coffee. Sure, if all you know is Folgers, it may seem like nectar, but compared to the worst coffee house in say Italy, France, Greece, Turkey, Germany, Spain et c. et c., Starbucks seems much like so much sewage.

      I know, I know it is comfortable to hold on to those free market myths of yours. And you know what, if you actually found a free market, it might not be all complete bull. But find that free market, friend, but meanwhile try to get informed.

  2. Convicted monopolists need our support by burgburgburg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The same government that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and turned a monopoly breakup into a mime of a wrist slap fights the good fight to make sure that software that isn't being licensed by the major party contributor is on superior footing against "free" "better" software. Why is anyone acting surprised?

  3. Well !!!!!!! by chickensdelight · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Open source technology - there really is no way to ensure that the third world would get second rate technology using free software, and where will the NSA put all their back door

  4. Re:They will fail (OT) by bobKali · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, Starbucks became popular because most places sell a WORSE product.
    They remain popular because they sell the SAME product line everywhere they are. Kinda like McDonald's.

  5. This isn't a bad thing, people! by egg+troll · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This is an excellent action on the part of the US government. Open Source software has a few bright spots (Apache, BSD) but its overrun with too many amateur, half-finished programs - a quick look at sourceforge will reveal as much. By doing this, the American gov't is simply saying they want proven, reliable code. Unfortunately this tends to mean closed-source code. I hope one day that most OSS goes thru as rigorous quality control that most major closed-source programs do.

    --

    C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
  6. Setec Astronomy by porkface · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the rest of the world's governments use OSS, the US government might have a harder time spying on them.

  7. Okay, someone has to be a legalese nerd... by Halo- · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, other than my own connotations for "support" and "encourage" what do they mean to the rest of the world? By this, I mean the people who actually control policy/pursestrings?

    "Encourage" could be syntacially stronger than "support" if "encourge" was used in this community to mean financial support in addition to moral support.

    I strongly doubt this is true, but someone reading has to have seen enough of these things to actually know what the between the lines meaning is.

    Motivating my curiousity was a discussion I had today about some GPL'ed code, and what exactly could be done with it. I realized that past a certain point, all I was comfortable saying was: "Well, to my understanding... blah, but you really outta talk to a lawyer before assuming anything" Words mean different things to different audiences.

  8. Re:They will fail (OT) by The_K4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No they used to sell good coffee, but as they grew in size, the quality of the coffee went down. Kinda Like McDonald's :)

  9. Trade Balance vs local Costs by RichMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All Microsoft software is an export of the US this brings trade $ to the US and profit, employment and tax dollars to the the US. Manufacturing costs are minimal. The US State Department has a mandate to support exports of American products.
    Internally the US government is mandated to support national development and minimize costs. This is best done through an open source solution system and the development and support of many independent local service companies. See the Peru OSS document.

    Thus we have the two faces of government:
    1) attempting to get other nations to buy overpriced, over hyped expensive american products
    2) attempting internally to minimize costs and local development
    Should one be suprised that other governments are also attempting 2. No. But the best thing to do is to pressure them to do 1 and send those $ to the US.

    1. Re:Trade Balance vs local Costs by hherb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By looking superficially at this issue, you would be right. However, there are issues at stake that are more important than the revenue of a single company, no matter how big.

      This issue is foreign relations. The war mongering is already antagonizing most of the world against the USA, with the UK and Australia possibly being the last official allies - thus anything to antagonize the people in other countries further may cost the US very dearly in the future. Hegemonialism and imperialism are attitudes that do not stand in high regard any more.

    2. Re:Trade Balance vs local Costs by cabalamat2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The US State Department has a mandate to support exports of American products.

      Isn't Red Hat an American product? Or is it the US State Department's policy to favour some US suppliers over others?

  10. Re:homeland security switch by bobKali · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My understanding (and I've not much MS experience) is that the security model for Win is more complex and therefore more difficult to secure. In *nix, everything's a file, and I think that makes it simpler. Plus, the Unix model's been around for 30+ years, and it's an open model.

    I dunno - considering that the only utility you need to customize *nix security is vi, where with Windows you need countless wizards and administrative tools and multiple registry settings for the same items.... well it confuses me (not that that's hard to do)

  11. just a quick note by stinky+wizzleteats · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The United States (as originally designed) != capitalism.

    Captilism is a new, post-industrial idea. The thinking is that things are run by the few who have scrambled to the top and can negotiate with each other for power and influence (see Rockefeller on this, who actually disdained the idea of a free market). I therefore don't subscribe to the idea that a government must be either Captilist or Communist. Call me a throwback, but I am kind of partial to the word free.

  12. friggin old news! by Ender+Ryan · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I read about this a week or two ago on LWN and newsforge. Why the hell wasn't this on /. then? This is important stuff!

    As far as I can tell, our government(to all you other Americans) is favoring proprietary software vendors(ie. Microsoft) over OSS/free vendors, including RedHat, IBM, HP, etc. OSS has become integral to a number of U.S. based companies, BIG companies like IBM and HP. OSS/free software is also used internally at companies like WalMart, Burlington Coat Factory, and our oh-so-fucking-precious movie studios.

    What incentive does our government have to favor certain U.S. based companies over others? You have one guess...

    --
    Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
  13. Say what? by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The free world won the cold war because an open society is more efficient than a closed one.

    I'm not sure how you are tying that to selection of software. Effectively the US outspent the USSR and broke them. At the present rate of growth in China, which is in some ways open, some ways closed, it will be interesting to see how the US stacks up in the years to come. Seems to me the biggest economy wags the tail.

    It is ironic the government embracing pricey closed systems, particularly how they are doing it. NSA and Homeland Security employ open source, apparently because they have full access to code and updates. Less critical applications get the junk. I've had to exchange data with various government departments before and typically they're a bit disorganised, so throwing buggy software at them seems like a way to compound their problems. Great for the next round of budget cuts, "Department X is inefficient and unresponsive to the needs of the people and will be eliminated/restructured/etc.", as sacrificial lamb to show leadership, etc.

    "Their giving us Microsoft Office and and Exchange Server."

    "Yeah, looks like it's time to polish up the old resume."

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Say what? by jcast · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Effectively the US outspent the USSR and broke them.

      And exactly where do you think the US got the money to do that?
      --
      There are reasons why democracy does not work nearly as well as capitalism.
      -- David D. Friedman
  14. Re:biggest crock by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful
    This is the biggest crock of shit I have seen in days (ok, hours) on Slashdot. </quote>

    Get ready to repeat yourself when the story is re-posted tomorrow :-)

    Actually, the State Departments' actions in trying to discourage open source are the biggest crock of shit I've seen today, especially in contrast to the DoHS switching to open source.

  15. Countries Support Their Primary Export Industries by istartedi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Countries Support Their Primary Export Industries. Film at 11. The US isn't being any more persnickety than say... oh... France when it comes to the name "Champagne". I'm sure the Europeans who don't want to cave to MS feel the same way I do that we (the US) haven't caved to the French and allowed them to dictate how we use words. Cheers.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?