KDE 3.1 Released

Is KDE trying to be Windows? by Vapor8 · 2003-01-28 01:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

This is another terrific release by the KDE team and I commend them on yet another release of some pretty sweet code.

I have one concern though, that I have seen others raise in the past and which makes me wonder if we're heading in the right direction. A quick scan through the new features is almost like reading about the new features introduced in a previous version of Windows. Is KDE simply trying to be 'more like Windows', which in turn would make KDE a much more familiar 'interface' for newbies to use? If so, then that's great and I'm sure that it will help increase its use amongst the masses.

What bothers me is that I'm beginning to see less and less 'innovation' and more and more 'feature copying'. Now, I understand that it's difficult to add a killer new feature without first having a base that an average user would expect to have, but when will we be able to reach the point where we can begin to 'differentiate' KDE from Windows in a unique way in order to furthur 'entice' potential users who simply see KDE as a 'Windows wanna-be'?

I for one love KDE and have used it as my primary desktop environment for at least a couple years now, and I always look forward to updates such as this one. They're always full of neat goodies. But I always get that feeling in the back of my mind that maybe we should try to 'think out of the box' a little more...

Re:Is KDE trying to be Windows? by sultanoslack · 2003-01-28 01:55 · Score: 5, Insightful

First a few things to consider: most of us KDE developer folks don't use Windows -- at all. I used Windows XP for the very first time when I was home for Christmas.
Second, Windows has some very useful and well thought out features. I prefer to substitue copy with learned from. Windows has certainly borrowed many things from Unix land; we shouldn't be too arragant to learn from the things that they've done right.
The last, is a resounding, yes, we do aim to innovate and produce and authentic Unix desktop with all that is entailed by that. I think one of the most innovative examples of this is something like the KDE IO Slaves, which extend the Unix metaphor of everything is a file to exverything is a URL. Being able to use your file browser to copy things directly from an audio cd to a remove machine via scp -- all transparently -- is *really* cool, and I think very Unix like. Or how about regular expression support in many find type of places, or rather nice console, IRC, GPG apps; the list goes on.
For all of the talk about KDE being Windows like -- remember that it's developed by old-school Linux/Unix guys. We're all very comfortable at the CLI; the debate between XEmacs and Vim is a vigorous here as anywhere. KDE is and will remain an Open Source *nix desktop; ideally making such an environment so usable as to bring this environment we know and love to folks that traditionally wouldn't be able to use it.
Re:Is KDE trying to be Windows? by Repugnant_Shit · 2003-01-28 03:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

Windows still doesn't have support for multiple desktops

Actually it does. Its included with the XP powertoys (I know, not the same as being built-in). Having said that exists, it is also the *worst* multiple desktop implementation I've seen. Alternative shells like LiteStep do it much better.

--
Vote for global prefs bug
Re:Is KDE trying to be Windows? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-28 05:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

KDE 3.1 DOES have both samba file sharing and samba mounting support.

For samba sharing, kde calls a setuid script named fileshareset to add and remove shares. Currently it only exports shares as read-only with no password.

Adding Win98 style password protection is harder because you have to add new entries to /etc/passwd for each share you want to password protect.
Re:Is KDE trying to be Windows? by spitzak · 2003-01-28 09:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Although I see nothing wrong with copying good ideas from Windows, I do wish KDE would differentiate itself a little bit by copying some abandoned ideas from older Unix Window Managers.

I have worked with this a great deal and I believe the changes are simple and user-friendly, and would very much like to see a main-stream desktop make these changes:

1. STOP RAISING WINDOWS ON CLICK! The only way a window should be raised is if the user clicks (not drags) on the TITLEBAR! This is absoultely 100% necessary for overlapping windows to be useful. Without it we are going to keep making stupid tiled and MDI interfaces (which if they really were a good idea they would not have been abandoned with Andrew and Windows 3.0) And anybody who thinks this is wrong should think again: a program can raise *itself* and thus it can easily do this on any mouse click and thus emulate exactly the current behavior. All I want is the ability for a program to decide if the click should cause a raise.

2. STOP RAISING "PARENT" WINDOWS when a "child" window is raised. This also makes overlapping windows impossible to use. This one is worse in that no possible arrangment of options for the KWM makes it work correctly. Because of this it is impossible to make a program with child windows and two overlapping main windows, again forcing kludges like tiled windows.

3. If point-to-type is on and you feel compelled to change what window has focus, warp the pointer to the nearest edge, so that the system is always consistent. This mostly has to do with new windows popping up, it does seem useful to have them get the focus, but the current KDE behavior causes me to always type to the wrong window. It appears the mouse cursor is a much stronger indication of where focus is going than the titlebar highlight so when it is wrong errors happen.

I've asked for this sort of stuff about 100 times but there is never any response. I think small changes like this would go a long way to making KDE *better* than Windows. It would allow very useful GUI's that could not be emulated on Windows (because it has the #1 and #2 bugs above).

Is KDE everything? by cerenyx · 2003-01-28 01:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

A quick scan through most of the comments on this page reflect the sentiment that KDE represents one of the pinnacles for why any windows user would want to switch to linux, and why linux "is ready".

My two cents on this matter is that what I feel should be Linux's selling point, what should be the reason why people start using Linux, is not so much a single desktop GUI, a smattering of 'features' that windows lacks, or anything. It should be the notion that Linux is an aggregate whole of multiple works, and that under Linux there is always more than one answer to something.

*sniff*
Now wasn't that sentimental and goo-gahish.

Congrats to the Kdevelopers for Kde 3.1

Re:OS X looks boring compared to new open source U by ciryon · 2003-01-28 01:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

Dear Mr. Troll,

Mac OS X has a unique look while both KDE and Windows uses a very similar interface.

The new thing with this KDE release is that it now really drags away from Windows with excellent icons and windowstyles.

I, and many people, have used this themes for a long time.

It's really interesting to see how much the german government has spent on KDE development. Wish more government would do that.

Ciryon

Re: redhat? by nitehorse · 2003-01-28 01:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

The original poster was referring to a lack of downloadable RPMs of KDE 3.1 for RedHat 8.0.

I responded explaining that RedHat failed to provide such RPMs for download, despite being given plenty of time as well as access to the source tarballs well in advance of today's release. That's all. I meant nothing about including 3.1 on their CDs. (Although they DID include a 3.1 beta on the 8.1 beta CD.)

Truly Special by rookkey · 2003-01-28 01:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

Once again, I am absolutely amazed at what this little thing called Open Source can do.

Just six years ago, an ambitious proposal was made to the world by a German university student named Matthias Ettrich. The goal of the project was to create a user-friendly, open source desktop environment similar to CDE, the Common Desktop Environment. CDE, at the time, was popular on Solaris and many proprietary Unix platforms. However, CDE's code base was closed and the Linux community was searching for a suitable replacement. Enough support built up that dozens of developers came together to create an entire desktop environment out of nothing. Over 20 months later, KDE 1.0 was released to the public. And there was much rejoicing.

Taking on Sun was an ambitious enough goal. But who would have imagined that Microsoft (Word document) (Google cache) would ever specifically name KDE as a viable competitor to Windows?

Microsoft may even start to get a little hotter under the collar if recent events are to show anything: Wal-Mart's on-line shopping site quickly ran out of their PC's built with a Linux distribution using KDE for its interface; most of the government computers in Largo, FL run KDE; and Apple implements a new Web browser based on KDE's KHTML library.

And if there is nothing else that the release of KDE 3.1 proves, it is that the naysayers are wrong again. All too often, there are those who try to suggest that there is some sort of heated conflict between the GNOME and KDE projects. Nothing could be further from reality. For example, on the Xdg mailing list prominent developers from both the GNOME and KDE projects work together in forming a consistent .desktop file standard. The people that actually make GNOME and KDE have nothing but the highest respect for one another's projects. There is none of the hostility that so many trolls would like others to believe.

It has just been wonderful seeing this release happen. I have been watching the KDE developer's mailing lists since July and I find it fascinating how the whole thing has come together. The graphics designers, the documentation writers, the translators, the event organizers, and, of course, the coders. All of these groups have been equally important in making KDE the enormous success it has become.

So, I just want to say thank you to everyone who made it happen. I just have to wonder what the next six years will bring!

Do they have an installer yet? by bwalling · 2003-01-28 01:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

One thing I have never figured out with KDE is the lack of an installer. I like the installer from Ximian for Gnome. It is simple, and it handles dependencies (moderately well).

With KDE, I have to download a ton of files, and then figure out the aRTS dependencies and whatnot. I also have to figure out how to make Linux use KDE instead of Gnome. I can do it and get it installed, but why not have an installer?

Re:vnc ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-28 01:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

VNC *SERVING* on X used to be _strange_ - you ran a whole new X server that was a VNC server too, unlike on Mac and Windows, where you ran VNC and it exported your _existing_ desktop. Then someone wrote x0rfbserver, which does the Mac/Win-VNC like operation of publishing the desktop of an existing X server. KDE took x0rfbserver and KDE-integrated it (i.e. built a Qt GUI...)

So your grandma can call you and say "I can't do this", you can tell her to click "share desktop" (or whatever it's called), and you can fix it for her remotely.

standards? by gimpboy · 2003-01-28 02:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

would it be prudent for developers who work on applications similar in nature (eg web browsers) to get together and decide on a standard for things like this?

integration issues such as this are a useability issue that i think will seriously effect the success of linux on the desktop.

dont take this as a negative slice towards kde, since communication works both ways, its just a suggestion. it's also a problem which occurs in all applications: email clients, editors, etc. it would just make sense for developers to work together on this and come up with a default set of key bindings that is standard across all applications.

apart from the constructive criticism above, the screenshots 3.1 looks very sharp. i look forward to the tabbed browsing in konqueror among other things. good job to all of you.

--
-- john

Re:But what I am rellay looking forward to... by greppling · 2003-01-28 02:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

If the web page has invalid HTML, we really shouldn't have to care about whether or not it renders "properly" since it wasn't written "properly" - but even a very large majority of those pages are displayed properly, because Konq has an IE-compatible mode that renders most pages the same way that IE does. (IE renders a lot of broken HTML when it shouldn't.)

Well, I guess this is one of the most frequently debated topics on slashdot. Yes, I know konqueror is perfectly standards conformant (well, at least I haven't met a bug there yet). And the web pages I maintain validate at w3c.org. (Great to have the W3-button in the extended toolbar, btw!)

But sorry, there do exist a lot of web pages that have horrible code but still interesting (to me) content. I don't mind if such a page is layouted a bit strangely, but if some of the content gets hidden such that I can't read it anymore, then that's annoying. (And if I know the maintainers of those pages are doing this in their freetime without much computer expertise, no then I don't send them "Your web page doesn't validate"-complaint e-mail either.)

But hey, I wasn't complaining, KDE is great and 3.2 will be even greater.

Re:Longtime GNOMEr Ready to Try by nitehorse · 2003-01-28 03:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sounds useful. I can't make any promises, but that sounds like something we'll want in KMail. (KMail is currently a developer no-man's-land, or at least it was last time I checked... that place is like a war zone).

But if nothing else, I'll bring your idea up with a few of the KMail devs and see what they think. That is, if the feature isn't already planned (seems sort of obvious, now that I think about it.)

Re:The end of GNOME. by FooBarWidget · 2003-01-28 04:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

"And it makes me sick reading all the shit from GNOME zealots replying to KDE people how much mature GNOME is (which it definately is not)."

HUH????? When was the last time you read Slashdot? 1998? The pro-KDE anti-GNOME trolls overwhelmed Slashdot like... 3 years ago. About one year ago, they seem to have reduced exponentially.

And now YOU suddenly jumps in, claiming that there are lots of GNOME zealots posting shit, while it's more than obvious that they are almost extinct now? Get a life!
THERE IS NO GNOME VS KDE WAR!!!!!!!

Re:The end of GNOME. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-28 04:14 · Score: 1, Insightful

I was a long time GNOME follower.

Ali, it would be more correct to say you were a long time anti-GNOME Troll.

Re:The end of GNOME. by FooBarWidget · 2003-01-28 04:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

In other news: the release of KDE 3.2 means the end of Enlightenment, WindowMaker and Blackbox.

Get real. There is no GNOME vs KDE war. KDE cannot kill GNOME, nor can GNOME kill KDE. They will both continue to exist.

I said it in OSNews before by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-28 05:03 · Score: 1, Insightful

And I will say it again..

I am a Gnome user I have to admit, this is not a KDE bashing post. Most of the reason I have clinged to Gnome with my YDL install is that, it looked the most polished the images and the whole interface looked fairly professional. Back when I first started using Gnome, KDE look very unpolished I could make it look nice but as soon as I would open the control panel the ugly unpolished icons and images threw me off again, I use OS X as well so you can understand me being a bit picky. Anyways after downloading and Installing this latest release I think I'm gonna be using KDE a lot more, it seems they have finally pulled their socks up and delivered something that looks very well polished and professional, it's not about Icons and themed windows because those have been changed, but the small things like the Splash Screen, the new wizards, the tabbed browser, the open and save dialogs.

Great job KDE, now I wonder how Gnome will counter such a great release.

Basic desktop functionality by ChrisWong · 2003-01-28 05:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

Will we ever see a complete desktop environment? I think of a typical PC GUI desktop as one with folders, each one unique. I want each folder to reopen with its own original size, position, view setting and visual fluff. This was what I took for granted on OS/2's WPS. But on KDE, directories that I create on the desktop or elsewhere all open up in Konqueror in the same standard file management window. Sometimes I want a folder with links to apps or music or pictures or video: a single default view profile will not do. To me, files are better displayed in a list, JPGs as preview icons, etc. Sometimes, the full-featured window with sidebar and command line is great. Other times, I just want a simple window of icons. But there is no way to specify this for each directory.

I'm not sure if I am expressing myself clearly. I just want to express my wonder that for all the eye candy and features built into KDE, its basic file and desktop browsing seems so inflexible. It still seems so far from the original 1984 Mac in some ways.

Re:KDE Outgrowing X11R6? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-28 07:47 · Score: 1, Insightful

Maybe Linux is growing out of X11, maybe not!

The alternatives to X11 are not on the horizon at the moment. The Berlin project still has a long way to go, and Suns Openlook system is dead, a great pity! So unfortuneatly, I think we are stuck with X11 for a while.

Of more interest, it would be nice to remove GTK and replace it with QT on KDE systems. It would be interesting to see QT versions of OpenOffice, Evolution and Mozilla. But hey, KOffice, Kontact and Konqueror are all progressing well.

Please don't get me wrong, I agree that X11R6 is not appropiate technology for the Linux Desktop. And QT would be a great system to build on, but this is outside of the scope of KDE. KDE is a X11 Window System. It hurts me to say the Apple's OSX is probably the future. The real question is if everyone (KDE, GNOME, GNU) can agree on a new windowing technology for networked and standalone desktops. The what happens to all our legacy code?

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