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Card Makers Say UK Citizens Want Biometric ID Cards
ArsonPanda writes "ZDnet is running a story on a recent survey in the UK showing overwhelming 80% public support of universal, biometricly enhanced citizen ID cards. Everybody here's fine with supplying the gubmit w/ your retinal scans and fingerprints, right?"
I really can't see the danger ! If I possess a card with my name and my finger print/retinal scan on it where is the problem ? I have a reliable way to prove my name. I dont have to show the card to anyone I dont like nor let them scan my retinal. And nobody can steal the card and use it under my name.
Having a central repository of all citizens with their biometric data may be a problem, but thats another story.
And that makes it right, how?
We aren't giving consent to the government to access our curriculum vitae's - that's already been done a long time ago. At this point, we are just making it more convenient for them.
And that makes it right, how?
The old "it's already being done in this circumstance so why not this way too" logic reminds me of an old story I heard about how one goes about boiling a frog--that is, one degree at a time so he doesn't realize what's happening to him until it's too late.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
When I got my Colorado driver's license, I was required to place my finger on a digitizer just before my picture was taken. Colorado has my fingerprint associated with my name, address, social security number, weight, hair color, eye color, picture, etc...
:-P Hey, I know, why don't we have a race to see who can conceive the most creatively evil police state in the world!
I was told I had to do it or I couldn't drive in Colorado.
Looks like Colorado is WAY ahead of the UK on this...
Go USA go...! Rah rah for the home team...!
If given the choice, would you prefer:
[_] That your ID card be enhanced with the latest technologies, which make identity theft and fraud with your name nearly impossible, a 50% income tax break for 10 years and the privilege of being knighted by the queen, or
[_] To keep your current ID card, allow our country to fall behind the times and encourage the worlds mot notorious criminals to move here to avoid getting caught by everyone elses superior identity technology, lose your job, and be shot, or deported, or both?
The other 12% chose option #2
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
- Niccolo Machiavelli, "The Prince"
Taken from the Alpha Centauri computer game.
very true. indeed it is symptomatic of the very fact that do not feel our own governemnt trustworthy. thus we do not wish for universal id cards, and thus the government underhandedly uses driver's licenses and ss# cards for such purposes. it compounds the problem.
give me an id card, but give me a new government first.
:T:R:A:N:S:
About a year ago in England a law was passed permitting UK police to carry electronic fingerprint scanners. It is, of course, a criminal offence to refuse to be scanned if an officer chooses to exercise his right to do so. Couple that with their right to search you if they have a whim to do so (sorry, that'd be justifiable cause in legalese) and I think the introduction of ID cards and their ilk is, mostly, an irrelevance: they can already do whatever they wish.
I live in the UK and I do not even have a photo on my driving license. I can lend it to anyone and they can drive my car but then hey, at present we do not need any ID at all to drive a car so they can drive the car anyway and say they are me. I can produce my license later and all is OK.
The current situation is silly and needs change so they have brought out photo licenses (like you have in the US) but no one can make me get one.
This idea will not run but a compromise will be reached like making me get a photo license so that only I can use it. They may expect me to have it when I drive. In the UK the gubment always suggest something like this and by the time it gets through it is something else.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Shlumberger, the company that made this survey, will be one of the companies to profit when the Gulf War ][ hits off.
They have a huge business in Oil extraction services and technologies.
These people are evil folks; but then, a company that employs agressive lobbying and spin tactics in order to turn a population into fleecable sheep (each ID card will cost over $25 per person in the UK, now thats what I call "Wool") can only be bad.
What puzzles me is the fact that people think that we have "private" lives and that the Government doesn't know anything about us. They think that by having an ID card, suddenly we'll all be on some huge database and that this is "wrong".
Well wake up people, you're already on a huge Government database. Look at some of the information they've got on you:
Identity theft is becoming a problem in the UK, surely a national ID card scheme with biometric data contained within it will help protect your identity?
Am I worried about being tracked? No, am I fuck. I've gained my safety, but I've not given up essential liberties. Now if they mandated us all to wear an RFID chip at all times so that our positions can be monitored, then yeah, I'd have a problem with it; there is no good reason why they should be doing that - except to track us. With CCTV however there is a perfectly legitimate reason, and remember that in England (esp. London) terrorists were discovered some time before 11th Sept. No honestly, they did exist back then, and we've been dealing with them for decades. CCTV in some of the choicest bomb locations is a fine idea by me.
I don't think Stand can be considered independent, they are decidedly against such legislation, although this doesn't diminish the value of thousands of people using them to formally state their abhorrence for the proposal.
When I wrote to my MP (Labour, current governing party) at the start of the consultation I was told "The entitlement card was just another version of the preoccupation of some civil servants (usually in the Home Office) with the idea." and "I really do not hear of any serious move down this road at UK level." Not that I really believe him, but maybe they realise they have a difficult time ahead.
Privacy International have just requested an investigation into the maladministration of the current consultation process on ID cards that has just ended so its not over yet, and certainly not on the basis of a survey by a company who wants to make money out of it. It is outrageously easy to get the results you want by tuning the questions you ask. This will not be trusted.
As a historical aside, the last UK ID cards were abandoned in 1953. At the time the Lord High Chief Justice stated that "it is obvious that the police now, as a matter of routine, demand the production of national registration identity cards whenever they stop or interrogate a motorist for any cause....This Act was passed for security purposes and not for the purposes for which, apparently it is now sought to be used...."
I've never seen the show you're referring to, but my view of Illegal imigrants was shaped from first-hand (or second I suppose) experience. There seems to be this belief that these people are happy-go-lucky, lovable rogues who stow away quietly on trucks to find their way to the bright new land of the UK. Having worked in the offices of a large European transport company I can give you the grim reality.
A very large number of the imigrants work in gangs, carry knives and other weapons and cause a great deal of damage to vehicles, goods and drivers (we had several who beaten up when they confronted the immigrants). These are NOT nice people; they have an agenda, and it's to milk the UK until they're inevitably kicked out (5 years later or whatever the delay is at the moment). Our vehicles used to use the channel tunnel, and this was constantly delayed as immigrants "stormed" the trains at Calais, hiding aboard, or running off up the tracks - there were very regular fights both within the various camps, and at the ports.
This is why it's slightly annoying to hear a bleeding heart bleating about how they're painted in this negative light - they've damned well earned it!
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
The research ... saw 1,000 people interviewed by telephone.
The results are - inevitably - based on the replies of people willing to answer personal questions in a telephone poll.
People who are worried about privacy are less likely to answer questions on any subject from to a telephone interviewer, precisely because of their worries. So their views are under-represented.
The choice of a telephone poll to investigate privacy concerns - rather than truly anonymous research - suggests incompetence or deliberate bias.
So tell us, who cares if someone under suspicion of a crime has the police use CCTV? It'd clear me of any wrongdoing pretty quickly if innocent, or help convict me, if I were guilty. Sounds pretty good to me.
>>What if you were a citizen that had some undue >interest (celebrities, financial types, etc) and >some CCTV footage of you meeting with someone >turned up? What if you went someplace out of the >ordinary to meet this person for whatever reason, >yet you were on CCTV?
Not sure what you're trying to say here...
Well, I'm Italian and I can offer you my view on the "compulsory" ID card thing. In Italy you are supposed to have an ID card on you at all time, but in fact nothing too bad happens if you don't (you may have to talk a bit, but you most definitely won't be arrested :). I admit that I don't understand the concern of people about the ID card, but I think that this comes from the fact that what's more important is not the fact that you MUST have an ID card, but rather the fact that you must show it when doing this or that. I mean: if you must have it, but you're never asked to show it, you don't really feel Big-Brother'ed.
Honestly, in Italy I cannot remember any situation where my card was asked which was not very well justified... In general it happens when you request official documents (and not always), maybe it happened once or twice at an university exam with a more paranoid professor fearing "friends" coming to do the exam for you. I suppose that if they catch you with a smoking gun in front of a dead man they'll ask you, also. When driving they ask for driving license, often they don't care about the ID card.
If I were asked to list 10 times when my card was asked I'm not sure I'd be able to reach those 10 times....
What is true is that it will be asked when crossing the border (you don't need a passport to move inside the EU, the ID card is enough), and even there, not always. When travelling by train or plane between France and Italy there have been times when I could travel without showing my ID to anyone (after 9/11 they are more paranoid, on planes they always ask you for the ID card....even if they tend to look at it for 1-2 seconds...). In France, some shops want to see your ID card when you pay by cheque or foreign credit card. I don't feel much threatened by this: my name is already on both of them, so the ID card does not add any information. If I don't want questions I just pay cash.
Overall, I think you can understand while, even carrying an ID card at all times, I really don't feel "watched". I feel much more watched through the credit card, for example, because that is associated to buying habits, while the ID is not.
For an insight into why these cards are true evil, read this piece in The Guardian [independent.co.uk] about how the Spanish have been habituated into ID cards like battery chickens who refuse to leave thier cages when the doors are opened.
As someone who has lived between the UK and Spain for many years, and is both a UK passport holder and Spanish ID card holder, perhaps I can give more insight into this.
Personally, I think the situation in the UK is much more open to abuse than the Spanish situation. The reason the Spanish do not worry about their ID cards is because there is nothing "evil" about them - in fact, having a clear way to prove your identity is very useful.
Imagine what a Spaniard thinks when they try to open a bank account in the UK. They ask you for your driving licence! If you don't have one, they ask for a recent gas or electricity bill. Seriously! How nuts is that!
When I lived in London I a met a local who was unemployed and was drawing unemployment benefit and housing benefit in the names of four different people - people he had just invented! He told me how he did it (it is suprisingly easy). Also, about ten years ago I applied for a new copy of my UK drivers licence (the old one was getting tatty) and was told that I had aleady been sent a replacement - apparently someone had applied for a replacement copy in my name - I deduced that when I had shared a house with some other people someone there had applied for the drivers licence in my name. These types of things rarely happen in Spain because they have a better way for individuals to prove their identity.
So, you may think that the Spanish way of doing things is bad, but believe me, there is a very good reason when Spaniards express disbelief at UK citizens when they say they have no identity card.
80% public support
I have met only one person who thinks identity cards are a good idea. But as he was a right-wing bigot who was attempting to tell me why asylum seekers were "the scum of the earth", I choose to discount his opinion.
I would only support an identity card if I was not required to carry it at all times, if I did not have to pay for it, and if the system was not administered by the current bunch of arseholes playing at government.
Indeed, I'm of the opinion that the government collect far too much information on it's citizens. Every new tax credit involves a 30 page form that asks all sorts of strange questions. I'm sure they only do it because they can, not because it's necissary. The identity card idea is just more of the same.
Do you mind, your karma has just run over my dogma.
not only Bulger, but the Brick Lane/Brixton/Admiral Duncan bomber. CCTV's alright by me - I used to work in a petrol station as a youngster, and when some idiot pulled a knife on me I just had to say to him "you're already on the tape, mate - and I just locked the door". He put the knife away, I let him go.
That was classic intercourse!
Yes, the immigrants. From where? Who? What nationality? Every group of people has its criminals, outcasts, and general good-for-nothings, even the -native- residents of the U.K. And by the sound of it, white supremacists may be counted among their ranks.
One of the other attractions to government is that such a system provides a national identity database such as which doesn't currently exist. I work for a company that is shortly to go live with a project for the UK Passport Office which will provide electoral registration information to support passport applications. In time this information will be extended to other government bodies which would not be able to share it between each other, so it's going to happen anyway.
As for biometric testing, the UK Goverment's approved suppliers are almost all terrible at what they do: congestion charging is about to be introduced in Central London and relies on a system that can read car number plates. Capita, the contractor who were hired to develop the system, managed to get it to read one in early December. It goes live in a fortnight, and it's currently 4/1 that it will be abandoned before the end of the year. Other companies such as EDS, Siemens and Schlumberger Sema will be in the running to manage the system. A search of The Register or Computing magazine's news pages will show that these are not companies to whom you would entrust your identity, biometrics or no.
The Survey probably said:
"Do you want crime to be reduced?
"Do you think the Police should be able to check criminal's identities?"
"Do you think ID cards are a good idea?"
As opposed to:
"Do you think the government holds too much information on UK subjects?"
"Do think people have a right to privacy?"
"Do you think ID cards are a bad idea?"
Environmentalism is the new Victorianism. Everyone ties on a green corset and pretends we're virtuous.
Just to lob my personal bomb into the
melee:--
N.O.R.A.I.D. http://www.noraid.com
CCTV cameras were introduced as a way of
spotting Irish terrorists funded by US citizens.
( Whose money ended up with Gadaffi (sp?) by the way )
Thank you for making that decision on my behalf. You are - at least in my case - completely wrong. It seems to me that it's only a highly vocal minority who have anything against ID cards, most of whom I wouldn't be surprised to find wearing tin-foil hats. If I had the option of carrying a single, conclusive identification document, I'd jump at the chance.
It took me two weeks last year to open a joint bank account with my wife, due to the bank quibbling over what was suitable identification and what wasn't. Birth certificates, marriage certificates, credit card statements, bank statements, utility bills, NHS cards and signature samples were among the items that were requested and submitted to prove who we were and where we lived. This was despite the fact I'd already had an account with them for 10 years. The really laughable bit was when the bank insisted on seeing a utility bill in both our names, so I phoned British Gas, asked them to add my wife's name and send a new bill. British Gas did so without question - they didn't want any kind of proof of who the additional name on the bill was, but somehow this makes it ok for the bank. I know other people who have had the same kind of trouble.
Please let me have my ID card. If you don't wish to carry one, and would prefer to carry all the other statements, bills and certificates in order to demonstrate who you are, then that's your look out.
"Deserve" means to be worthy of, to earn something. You can be guaranteed something (by the Constitution or your Creator), but it doesn't necessarily mean you deserve it. Franklin says nothing about taking away anyone's liberty. It has nothing to do with race or political views. The quote simply refers to the choice of what do you value more? Essential liberty or temporary security?
If you trade away your liberty, you deserve what you get--no privacy, the Ashcroft gestapo, Big Brother, etc. And none of those will give you any real security. (See second sentence of quote.) You don't deserve liberty anymore, because you gave it away. You did nothing to earn it or be worthy of it. You sold yourself to Big Brother and are now subject to whatever Big Brother determines your rights to be (Big Brother doesn't believe in inalienable right? Oh, boo hoo. Shoulda thought of that before you sold out. But at least you're secure, right?). You now have to hope that someone else, who didn't sell out their liberty, comes along and gives liberty back to you through a revolution, or you can stand up and earn it back yourself. Or, you can just not give it away in the first place!
OT Side Note: "Deserve" is a word that has recently taken a beating. I'm always hearing advertising saying things like "get the car you deserve" (usually offering high interest loans on $30,000 SUVs to people with poor/no credit). Bullshit! You deserve praise for saving a life, you may deserve a bonus or raise for doing something for your company, but you do not deserve a car you can't afford. People are confusing "deserve" with "entitled to because I think everyone (Society, The Man, the lender at the bank, etc.) is against me".
History has proven that no government--NONE--can be trusted with such knowledge over its citizens. Even here in the USA, during WW2 the federal government used data from the 1940 Census in order to identify citizen of Japanese descent so they could be sent to internment camps. Imagine what such a government could do if it had even more personal information.