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Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel
Reality Master 101 writes "Saw an interesting post on the Experimental Rocket Propulsion Society BBS from John Carmack, who is working on an X-prize vehicle. Apparently he is having a lot of trouble getting Peroxide from the major suppliers, and is possibly thinking of helping someone set up a company to produce peroxide. With NASA's recent problems, there has been a lot of talk about promoting more private investment in rocketry. But how can it happen when the suppliers won't even sell peroxide to well financed, registered, X-prize teams? Anyone want to start a peroxide business?"
Hydrogen peroxide - H2O2.
Date: Tue Feb 4 22:02:01 2003
List-archive: http://lists.erps.org/archives/erps-list/
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
Frankly it is. In fact, if you read up on what killed the Kursk, they say it was indeed an innocuous little substance that looks like water- Peroxide. The stuff reacts with practically every metal to form Oxygen (great for burning fuel). If it can form a high enough pressure to rupture sealed torpedo housings and create a fire hot enough to detonate every single torpedo on a submarine, it can do a bit of damage while being transported.
And no, I'm not being melodramatic. To be useful it needs to be 100%... but you typically won't find it available over 35%. It's a great oxidizer- add a little to your next charcoal fire and enjoy the fumes! (ok, you'd need a catalyst like Manganese Dioxide to do it, but still...).
Manufacture it onsite and hope you don't have an accident with your 100 gallon teflon vessels.... and please do it somewhere away from where I live.
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Hydrogen peroxide can be used as a mono-propelant (A 70% pure mix run through a catalyst screen to form steam and O2), or a bi-propellant (mixed with a hydrocarbon to form steam and CO2). Check out erps.org for info on H2O2 rocketry.
Thank you for your time,
Frank Russo
I wonder how much that has to do with the material possibly being labled as bomb making material. I could be way off base. Anyone in the industry want to enlighten us?
This is exactly the problem. H2O2 can be violently reactive and in fact can even be hypergolic if mixed with certain compounds causing inadvertent accidents. The Nazi's found this out with their Me163's which actually had more losses due to refueling than combat losses.
There are easier and safer ways to make bombs than with H202, but if someone wanted for instance to make a bomb using this stuff it could be done and be quite destructive.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
This is the same stuff you can buy at the local drugstore in 3% dilute solution to disinfect wounds, bleach hair, etc. At very high concentration (I think for rockets they use 90+%), they can use a catalyst to initiate a very rapid exothermic decomposition of the H202 to H20 (as steam) and O2. This provides thrust, without need of a 2-part fuel/oxidizer combo.
I know of at least 2 outfits starting out with hydrogen peroxide rockets - Armadillo Aerospace (Carmack's outfit) and the infamous Rocket Guy (the toy inventor turned spaceman.)
Research into hydrogen peroxide rockets was done in during WWII, and actually made it into some experimental applications, I believe...
Almost pure hydrogen peroxide 85 - 95 percent.
The peroxide that people find at the drug store is 3 percent.
The stuff used in rocket engines is extremely caustic, in other words it will burn any organic matter (read skin, muscle, bone, etc.) on contact.
Not to mention the Department of Transportation doens't like it moving over their highways.
Yes, except at 95-100% concentration. The stuff that cleans your wounds is 3%.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Hydrogen peroxide
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
It's MUCH more concentrated.
Here's a page describing the grades.
http://www.h2o2-4u.com/grades.html/a
When I worked for American Rocket Company in 1988-89, we used 80% Hydrogen Peroxide as fuel for our thrust vector control system. Sixteen injectors at the throat of the main engine nozzle under computer control squirted H2O2 into the plume and it deflected the plume, and therefore the thrust, by enough to steer a rocket.
This was really nasty stuff. IIRC, the only place we could get it was Germany, and we had to jump through all kinds of transportation safety hoops just to get it over here. 80% is a very high concentration, I don't know if Carmack needs this much or not. Peroxide you get at the drug store is 3% H2O2 and 97% H2O.
One of the test valves came back from our engine test site at Edwards and we rinsed it thoroughly with water. Still, when I handled it, traces of the peroxide burned my skin. Very nasty, very painful.
We also worked with other cool stuff like LOX (oxidizer), Silane (for ignition), and my favorite gas, Nitrous Oxide (another oxidizer, self-pressurizing and fun at parties!). I still have a hunk of polybutadiene rocket fuel on my desk as a souvenier; we used to cast that stuff into all kinds of fun shapes, including some you wouldn't be able to show your mother.
I can see the fnords!
Hydrogen Peroxide at a ~90%95% concentration was the key component for the X-15 rocket plane that was used to develop a large portion of the hypersonic flight and planetary reentry data for the first steps of the space program. The X-15 achieved mach 6.7 and 354.200ft altitude. With The theoretical 'edge of space' set at 62 miles (327360 ft), Peroxide should work. (Quite a bit about the X-15 can be read at this NASA SITE http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Newsroom/FactSheets/FS-05 2-DFRC.html ) Other versions of the x-15 used Oxygen and ammonia. Maybe they could be fuel alternatives.
I believe the Rocket Guy (http://www.rocketguy.com) is producing his own peroxide for his rocket. Might he be willing to double the output for some cash?
We used gasoline.
I can see the fnords!
In the New World Order ordinary citizens will not be allowed to have the capability to build rockets unless they are part of the state-approved aeronautics industry. The Homeland Security issues alone will cause most personal heavy rocket experimentation to cease.
There are the liability issues as well if any chemical company ever sells stocks innocently to any terrorists. In a risk-adverse environment, most companies will not take that risk.
Besides, you've seen those Carmack games. They are violent! He creates violence in our children! We must protect our children!!!
________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
Purdue University is doing lots of work with Peroxide based rockets. Armadillo should contact the Aero /Astro dept. there to get some tips on how to aquire the stuff. Just call the number on their web page.
I think they couldn't get stuff above 80% because of transportation concerns... I believe that they were able to distill the 80% stuff up to higher concentrations. They've also developed catalysts that can be mixed with the peroxide as a colloid to get better performance.
Purdue has just rehabilitated an Apollo-era test facility to do some engine tests. When they get up to full swing, they'll probably have the best facility at a University. Armadillo might want to contact them about using their facility for tests.
If the Armadillo guys have halfway decent designs, I'm sure the Purdue people would love an excuse to light up a new engine.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
I've always been sceptical of the RocketGuy, but at least he has this part down and is distilling his own peroxide fuel (to 90% purity).
Of course he does have to buy it (at 50% purity), so maybe that's a problem now too.
Actually, a high explosive is simply an explosive that expands faster than the speed of sound (a shock wave), while a low explosive remains subsonic. From a practical standpoint, this means that a low explosive will just burn fast unless it is confined. A high explosive is effectively 'confined' by the surrounding air.
I imagine they are going with H2O2 rather than LOX so they don't have to insulate the tank, deal with extremely low temperatures (and ice) as it boils, and of course, deal with venting the tank while filling/counting down, etc.
Talk to these guys
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
The now defunct Beal Aerospace made TONS of the stuff for their booster testing. I have some names of the folks that use to worked there. Beal sold all of his equipment in a big auction about a year ago. I think the manufactering equipment may still be down a McGregor, TX which is just out side Waco, TX. Remember gentlemen this is highly explosive stuff, so equipment is installed at a munitions plant. Maybe somebody will give me a hint on how to contact John Carmack. I can't figure out how to get through all tha identity hiding and the links look that kind of hackerish. Maybe this is all the hints he needs.
Hydrogen peroxide as propellent needs to be very pure, and is pretty nasty stuff. The methods to produce the pure stuff are more expensive than average, and are patented and controlled by only one or two companies if I recall correctly.
. htm
h tml
Linkage as follows:
How Stuff Works article on peroxide rockets
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question159
Peroxide FAQ
http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/FAQs/FAQ.
-Z
That can be bought and sold, it's just a group of hobbyists.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Rocket-grade peroxide is pretty hairy stuff. The stuff you buy at the local corner store is mostly water (like maybe 3% peroxide). For propulsion you want concentrations of more like 90% - 95%. In these concentrations peroxide will consume just about anything which can be oxidized; it's particularly fond of organic material, such as people... No surprise he's having trouble getting it.
Here's a decent FAQ on peroxide, with some stuff on rocketry uses included.
We're not talking the 3% solution you buy at Walgreen's here, he needs 100% or nearly 100% peroxide.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
I agree with some comments that this isn't exactly general interest news.
I am not interested in hearing from every chem major that is interested in starting a business (already heard from a couple, that's how I found out about the slashdot story). However, if anyone here does happen to have a brother-in-law that is a VP at FMC or some such, a little nudge wouldn't hurt.
The full story:
Rocket grade peroxide is stabilizer free, and 85% - 100% concentrated, as opposed to drug store peroxide at about 3% concentration. You can get up to 70% peroxide reasonably easily, but the high concentration stuff is a specialty item.
When we started our development work a bit over two years ago, we were doing some concentration of the peroxide ourselves, which is fine for making small test batches, but you really don't want to be making drums of the stuff, or you wind up spending as much time messing with that as you do building rockets.
We had some initial discussions with FMC about that time, but they weren't terribly encouraging. Shortly thereafter, we made contact with X-L Space Systems, a small company that was producing 98% concentration peroxide and selling it reasonably to several small outfits, as well as NASA and the USAF. I wound up buying a dozen or so drums from X-L, and everything was going well.
The owner of X-L was having such a hard time getting the government to pay their bills on time (he never had complaints about his small commercial customers) that he finally decided it just wasn't worth the headache, and he closed the company down. I was in discussion with him to make a large enough order to justify keeping production open, but we wouldn't need all that much peroxide for nearly eight months, so the storage logistics were looking troublesome. In hindsight, I should have worked something out, even if it was expensive or difficult.
About six months ago, we started contacting FMC again. The details haven't been very pleasant, largely because we keep thinking we are almost there, and it keeps not being the case. If they would just tell me exactly what I have to buy to make them happy, I would gladly do it, but they keep finding new things. That is the "stringing us along" part. They are mumbling again about lawyers and liability at the moment, which we thought had been worked through previously.
We have also spoken to Degussa about production, but they won't sell in drums, only large storage tanks (they supposedly have some drums in the US, but they are "promised to" NASA, and they won't sell them to us). We could live with that, but we broke off contact with them a while ago because FMC was sounding reasonable, but insisting that they be our sole supplier.
This is one of the unfortunate tradeoffs in modern society -- in the 70's, FMC would just ship drums of peroxide to the guys doing rocket powered dragsters without any hassles (one of them sent me a scan of some of his old shipping invoices). Today, fears of liability are larger than basic business drives like making money with your product. I'm not a "back in the good old days" sort, I fully recognize that the other advantages of modern society outweigh the nanny-state disadvantages, but one can always hope for across-the-board improvements.
Other than being almost out of peroxide, things are going very well for Armadillo. We rescheduled a lot of our development now that the X-Prize is fully funded, so we are parallel tracking full scale vehicle development with subscale flight testing.
John Carmack
Uh, no. :) I believe hydrogen peroxide as a fuel needs to be 70% or better.
"I deal with this situtation everyday as an electrical engineer in the aerospace industry. We ask for something and we get ignored because the amount we are willing to spend or the quantity we want is not worth their effort."
Depending upon what you need, you might consider looking to get it in Canada. Canada is a much smaller market (only 10% as large as the USA) so Canadian manufacturers have had to become very good at small production runs and custom orders.
The North American Free Trade Agreement makes it relatively painless to get things across the border and $1.00 US gets you about $1.50 Canadian, so you typically get more for your money, too.
If you can't find what you want on your own, check us out at www.ProjectsDoneRight.com
We have contacts that may be able to help.
Morris
Erris has it right here. You seem to have stumbled upon a fairly well-known engine design for torpedoes that's been around since the 60s I believe. Unfortunately, high concentration H2O2 is a very dangerous oxidizer that can do quite nasty things if not treated VERY carefully. The russian sub Kursk was sunk when one of these torpedoes caused an explosion in the forward torpedo room and blew out the front side of the hull.