Slashdot Mirror
Logitech Z-680 Dolby 5.1 PC Speakers Reviewed
PhatBass writes "PC Speakers certainly have come a long way from the little buzzers we used to
listen to before the days of SoundBlaster. Remember the 'Windows Speaker
Driver' that gave you more than beeps and buzzing through the little cone in
your case? Well now we have full Dolby Surround Sound setups, THX
Certified, the works, for Gaming, DVD and Multimedia bliss. Take a look at
the
sweet Z-680 setup from Logitech that is reviewed here, they sport 1000 Watts
of Peak Power, a hardware Dolby Pro Logic II 5.1 Decoder, Digital Inputs and
serious style."
Already gave them a 10 and said they sounded just as good as the Klipsch, at ~200$ cheaper. I trust websites for reviews as much as, heck, as much as I trust slashdot for not posting repeats.
There should be an 'advertisements' topic on slashdot.
With a total output of over 500 watts and a frequency response of 35-22000 Hz you could power a mid sized dance floor... Fact is these figures aren't really true.
The problem is that measuring these figures aren't done according to any standard weighting... the frequency response of my subwoofer at home is 39-200 Hz, the lower end at -3 DeciBels. The problem is these manufacturers don't report weighted figures. For all we know 35 Hz could be at -10 DeciBels, which is much lower than nominal volume.
This is why you never ever read the specs... listen to the speakers.
I'm not saying these speakers are bad. I'm just saying that the figures stated in the specs aren't comparable to professional or HIFI equipment.
.: Max Romantschuk
I use my Yamaha AX6620 amp and Wharfedale diamond 8 5.1 setup with separate subwoofer for my PC's sound.
Using a not-designed-for-pc sound system has its disadvantages, like the speakers are supposed to be shielded but aren't completely, but it's more than made up for by the sound quality.
I used to use a creative 4.1 surround system for the pc, but it used to piss me off because it kept auto turning itself off at low sound levels and there was nowhere to plug headphones in (My main multimedia setup is separated by a thin wall from next door's bedroom so I use headphones after about 10pm).
graspee
The correct poewr rating is 505 watts RMS [Root Mean Square], which is what the speakers can handle on a continuous basis.
Don't be swayed that marketing term known as PMPO [Peak Music Power Output] - what the equipment in question can handle/deliver over a very short period of time, typically measured in milliseconds.
Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
Do they include DRM ? Will they block the 'copyrighted' sound entering their digital inputs unless I use a certified driver ?
For the price of most PC Surround sound speakers and cards you could buy a nice Surround Sound stereo system and run your PC audio through it, and it usually sounds alot better. I have seen it done mayof times and the sound quality is superb.
[n8.r0n] http://petesweb.spymac.net/
Let me see, my desk is against the wall, which puts me less than half a metre from the front three speakers. Unless I place the rear speakers in the way in the middle of the room behind me, I'm going to have put some major delay and volume adjustments in to the setup. 5.1 DD on a computer just sounds like a silly idea to me. 5.1 DD coming out of my XBox in the living room does work though ;)
Oh, and as for that Windows speaker driver. It was a pain in the arse: the whole system would pause for playback of even the most simple sounds.
When will speaker manufacturers stop quoting meaningless figures?
Can any sound engineer types out there give a brief overview of the sound quality differentials between this standard of speaker with a good sound card and the sort of kit you can fork out a shed load of cash for at your local hifi dealer?.
I know judgement of sound quality can be a very subjective thing but I am curious when I can get a PC sound system very reasonably but can (assuming I had the cash) pay thousands of dollars/euro in a store for hifi equipment. Is the price difference reflected in the sound quality ?
For that matter how do I know my hearing is good enough to distinguish the difference ?
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
I'd like to ask a simple and possibly silly question:
Why not just go to a normal stereo store, and buy a normal stereo?
More PC speaker sets are designed to be small enough to not dominate your desk, as the idea is that your PC is not your primary music/movie station. This monster will require you to definitely change your layout for maximum effect.
So if I am going to make my PC be my media hub, why not just buy a normal stereo system, and be done with it?
Sure, a system like this might make sense if you are in a space limited environment like an apartment in a city, or a dorm.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Not if you plan to power it with your on-board chip or internal audiocard.
Its not the speakers so much as the soundcard (and the placement of its ad/da converters) that makes a PC worthy of an audiophiles interest. As long as the converters are sitting on a PCI card, or worse yet, on-board, interference is bound to turn the average audiophile away.
There exist solutions for getting the converters outside the PC case (breakout boxes) that certainly help, and if you keep it digital all the way from PC to your sound-system (no i dont mean a cheapy set of speakers from Logitech) things can get even cleaner. The Hammerfall and DIGI cards from RME for instance are a nice option in this case.
But then if you're talking true audiophile, they'd laugh at even thinking about having a PC anywhere near where they plan to listen to music. The fans on pretty much any moderm PC lift your ambient sound-floor to somewhere in the -60db range regardless of the quality of your output chain.
So the answer is no. If an audiophile is going to spend $10,000 to buy a set of headphones, they dont want a PC. But then there are audiophiles and there are audiophiles.
"I'm tired of all this 'Aren't humanity great' bullshit. We're a virus with shoes" - Bill Hicks
They are posting articles that correspond to OSDN affiliation elsewhere, and posting the URLs under related links.
/. for doing this, just thought i'd point it out incase anybody hadn't noticed.
I'm not getting at
The PC speaker driver used pulse-width modulation to simulate audio waveforms. That is why it sounded so crunchy. It also CRUSHED your system while it was playing a sound because (I think) it was toggling an interrupt for each pulse. Did you notice how everything else stopped during playback?
Somebody rolled the driver out to about 10 Win NT 4 boxen at my old office as an "upgrade". When we upgraded to Win 2000, the driver remained in place, and still worked. Gack.
Now for the rant.
Nothing exposes how poor MP3 (or even CDs) sound like owning a real quality pair of speakers connected to a clean amp. I have a Nakamichi AV-10 driving B&W DM-603 speakers. I connect the Nakamichi to the digital output of my Turtle Beach Montego soundcard, and it works well enough. Unfortunately, the fidelity of the system makes MP3 files almost unbearable for serious listening.
So do yourselves a favor. If you listen to MP3, buy crappy PC speakers and let your imagination fill in the gaps.
If you doubt this, just look at the majority of popular stereos with a "bass boost" button, which may as well be labeled as "ignore the equalisation performed by a professional engineer and producer, I want thumping".
Of course in theory, graphic EQs on stereos should be used to tweak the signal to counteract the frequency attenuation of the speakers and electronics - but instead they are used to add bass etc.
I reiterate: most people don't want accurate sound reproduction.
Uh, no. RMS Watts are no standard. 'RMS' just specifies the calculation method. You also need to specify the distortion at which the test takes place. I'll bet the Logitech figures are at 10% THD. Serious equpment is measured at something like 0,01% THD.
At the risk of being downvoted, I don't like speakers at all. Headphones are the way to go. Not those awful one-dollar piezoelectric crystal widgets that go into your ears and break after a week because the wire was too thin. I'm talking about those massive black headphones that totally cover your ears, muffle external sound and sound better than most cheesy OEM speakers. Good for hearing the direction of your opponents' footsteps in Counterstrike, too. I remember first trying a set of these headphones out on the glass-house demolition test map of Red Faction... mmm...
1000 watts peak is pure fiction.
It is similar to a measurement on a car, where you rev up the engine to max and suddenly let go of the clutch. I'm sure most car engines will "measure" more than 5 times the sustained max power for a few milliseconds.
A 1960 VW Beetle 1100 cc engine has 150 horsepowers if you measure that way.
-- From Denmark
Don't be fooled by the supposedly massive power output of this system. I've heard such systems many times, and pumping that much power (probably 1000W PMPO ~= 500W RMS?) into tiny plastic housed speakers really sounds quite crap.
I've got VASTLY better sound by connecting the audio output (headphone socket) from my old Soundblaster AWE 32 (ISA) straight to some Mission bookshelf speakers using a custom cable (3.5mm stereo jack to twin speaker cable!). That sounds card had a reasonable 12W RMS power amp on board that most new sound cards don't have (only line out or 4W headphone). I was surprised at how good this set up actually sounded. It lacked in the old bass department if you turned the sound the right up, but it was fine for normal listening levels or watching films.
A cheap (and VERY old Yamaha amp from eBay) made this set up even better (and provided me with a tuner!). All this for much less money and WAY more sound quality.
If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Get a really cheap old amp, and use your real hi-fi speakers - I can guarantee it will sound better than any plastic computer speakers ever will.
You don't need 5 channels - this just makes music sound crap and is just a gimmick for gamers. It's far better to get a decent stereo set up working first and if you really want 5 channel audio - then an old dolby digital amp off e-bay will definitely sound better than a package like this Logitech system.
The "1000W" figure is a complete joke! My £1000(GBP = $1500USD) NAD system is only 65W per channel and sounds stunningly good even using bookshelf speakers. Never EVER be tempted to equate output power to sound quality (especically if the power is measured PMPO rather than RMS) and never underestimate how bad small speakers sound compared to larger ones. Two tiny (10cm drivers) speakers + subwoofer does not in any way equate to the quality obtained by two half decent mid-sized bookshelf hi-fi speakers.
Nick...
There's not only audiophiles and audiophiles, but even audiophiles. Even heard of an audiophile lately, but that's probably an urban legend...
Just like everything else that has the words "computer" on it related to audio.
If you want really good computer speakers to listen to music on or as a good audio refrence... go to your local guitar center and buy a set of studio monitors and a studio amp... they're over in the mixer section...
For the same amount of cash as these overpriced and horribly overrated junk you can get something real.
I found the most entertaining the 1000 watt rating.. Yeah right. in low-end car audio ratings... I have a Crown stereo amp here that is only 25 watts and cost $400.00 and will kick the crap out of anyone's home stereo that cost around $400.00
a watt rating is 100% useless... tell me the watt rating RMS at a distortion level. anything higher than 0.05% THD is junk.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/compare/
is the link.... slashcode strikes again stripping out proper HTML
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Take a look at the M-audio Revolution. M-audio has been making professional audio soundcards for many years, and they are now branching out into the consumer arena. The Revolution sports 7.1 connections, 24/192 DACS, channel independent bass management, and SRS Labs Circle Surround II processing. I've not listened to it yet, but will install mine tonight. Additionally, I've heard talk of a DVD-audio player to be availible for it as well.
Use this link: http://dealnews.com/articles/47191.html
and you can get it for about $90.
The best part? You get to thumb your nose at Creative, and their driver bloatware, and fake 24/192 DACS
Well, that's the first bad review of the Klipsch speakers that I have ever read.
But it came from such a reliable source! Don't you know how highly regarded Anonymous Coward is in the audiophile community?
Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
Over a year ago, I paid around £100 ($150ish, I guess) for a set of Videologic DigiTheatre LC speakers (The LC variant doesn't come with a dolby decoder, which is not a problem since I already have an AC-3 / DTS decoder). The front 3 speakers have two drivers (sound quality of the rear speakers is less important, since your ear is less sensitive to sound from behind you). Theses speakers produce very nice quality sound (subjectively). They are only rated at about 62.5W RMS, but at maximum volume they don't distort, and you really don't miss (other than ear damage) that you would get from more powerful speakers. Did I mention that over a year ago these cost less than half of what the Logitech set cost now? Let's have some perspective here...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Plenty of people have pointed out that 1000W PMPO is irrelevant, but I will tell you that the total of 505W RMS doesn't mean that much either - at least without other information.
What I want to know is: how many decibels @ 1W, 1m? I have a pair of speakers which are 200W each, and I bet they're louder! There's also the harmonic dirstortion - will the system start flattening out sine waves when it gets near the maximum output level?
Here's another thing: the quoted range for the system is 35Hz - 20kHz, but they don't specify the frequency deviation. If it's more than +/- 3dB, then it's going to start sounding uneven.
Someone asked about the difference between good speakers and bad ones. Here's a couple:
That last one is something I really appreciate with my speakers. Try this: turn your speakers up to a good volume, good pumping bass etc. Then turn them right down - can you still hear the bass? On cheapers systems that'll disappear quicker than the higher frequencies. Good speakers will "kick" without being intrusive.
-- Steve
I agree whole heartedly with the parent comment, with a couple of reservations.
HiFi store for nice sound quality. HiFi speakers are designed to sound "nice" to your ears, by introducing various colorations that are not present in the original signal
I disagree with the term 'colorations' - this suggests that various extra signals can be introduced by speakers. Generally this can only be true for processing components like the pre amp, pre amp or the DAC. Speakers only vary in thier response at a particular frequency.
If you want to have accurate sound reproduction, you should consider buying studio monitors
Well yes and no. Monitors are designed for as flat a frequency response as possible and therefore be as unforgiving as possible of the source signal. That in itself will not give you a 'nice' sound quality, it will only show you the colorations in the rest of the system.
If you use Near Field Monitors than you are using speakers that are specifically designed to present the stereo image when right on top of them, whereas most HiFi speakers will only present an accurate image at a distance roughly equivalent to thier seperation.
If you are using the speakers in a normal PC setup then you need Near Field Monitors such as those produced by the late TDL, or as you suggest the Spirits (Haven't checked your other recommendations, always myself found Tannoys a little bright)
On a PC I doubt you really want a monitor grade sound reproduction system. They are designed to be totally unforgiving and highlight every single detail in the sound field. On a PC the hiss and pop of the 2 dollar DAC is going to be in your face, the distortions from MP3 compression, all that nasty clicking and buzzing becuase the sound card is unshielded and sitting in a fairly harsh RF environment.
Besides 'clinical' sound quality is not the same as 'good' sound quality. A totally clinical reprodcution is very tiring to listen to beacuse the faults are so obvious it detracts from the stuff that is okay.
For most people I would advise go and listen to the stuff you want to buy, NO HiFi component is perfect in its response so put together a chain of components that sound pleasing to your ear. If you listen for pleasure then your requirements are different from those running a home studio.
The better and more transparent you make your system the less source material you will have to play on it. Its no surprise that the majority of CD's are mastered with compression and effects and a tonal balance to make them sound good on 100 dollar boom boxes because thats 95% of the market - on a good HiFi it will sound terrible, on a monitor grade system unlistenable. Its no coincidence that most HiFi enthusiasts end up listening to classical music and live concert albums, as these are the few that are general produced in a tonal flat manner.
Put it this way - a soft focus photograph is generally a better portrait image to most people than a pin sharp unflattering photograph. The same goes with HiFi
In terms of is your hearing good enough to hear the difference - well that depends.
If your hearing is not damaged then it potentially is good enough, if its trained. Once you start listening to a quality system you may not notice right away the improvement, but go back to listening to the boom boxes and it will sound horrible and muddy. Then you will start to notice some of your albums sound more open, crisper, deeper, the sound more full,; yet others will remain closed in like sounds coming from in a bucket.
You can tell by the emotive, non technical words I'm using that the subtleties of tonal reproduction bettween a good system and a great system are exactly that - subtle - and very personal. The only person that can tell is YOU.
My rule of thumb is that for every zero you add the sound quality doubles. So a 100 'quid lifestyle hifi' sounds twice as good as a 10 quid radio. A 1000 quids worth of decent HiFi sounds twice as good. To get better you need to spend 10000 quid - and most people will stop with a system of a couple of grand because to get better costs so much more.
In summary to the original question you can get much better kit for not much more than a PC speaker system from your local HiFi dealer - but its not worth spending a huge amount because the PC as a source is very low quality.
Don't get duped!
The specs say 505 watts total power.
The specs say an input impedance of 10,000 ohms and this means the power amplifier is built in.
A built in power amplifier also means that there is an internal power supply which has, at best, 85% efficiency, requiring 594 watts from the wall plug.
Now look at the power rating on the unit, and you can bet it has a rating less than 500 watts.
Since most of the public (and probably most engineers)don't understand the ratings,we find manufacturers providing deceptive advertising.
More power SELLS better!
Back in the 60's and early 70's the audio industry went through RMS power, Peak Power, Music Power, Instantaneous Peak Music Power, and perhaps one or two other meaningless terms. Why? Because RMS power doesn't describe the instaneous power needed for speakers to reproduce the sound of a sudden drumbeat or crashing cymbol without distortion and that requires a very large power for amout 1/4 second. Large power ratings impress the ignorant and opens up more wallets.
Then there is the frequency response of -3db (half power, +/- 3db, and -10db. Never mind that the power level is so low that you can't hear the bass or highest frequencies.
Next there's the distortion figure at each power level. If your car tag rattles with the bass sounds you probably don't care, but if you want to hear the brush on the drum, 3% distortion will bother you. More power generally means more distortion.
When the engineers and audophiles finally started asking questions and publishing reports about the misleading specs, they finally stopped. Now, with a new generation of listeners, they are back.
Moral: Pay attention to the specs. and listen to the speakers. There's more to audio than just sound.
I'm using my system as the center of my home theater, and really like it. If you don't mind spending a good chunk of cash get yourself some Genelec active monitors. You have to find a reciever with balanced pre-amp outputs, I think Dennon makes one. The setup will cost a pretty penny, I think the Genelecs are about $1000 a pair, but you will be rewarded with a very nice system if you do that. It would also be nice for your occasional production work.
I'm running a much lower-end system some Paradigm bookshelf units and a sub are plenty for my DVD and music needs. I have a decent Technics amp, mostly because it has plenty of digital inputs. I think that is by far the best way to use your PC, get the digital stream out of the relativly noisy PC case. You might want to look into some of the silent PCs out there, because all those fans can get loud.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
If you want good sound, you want to get some professional "nearfield monitors." These are designed to be used with computers and sound excellent. Go to your local pro audio store, they will have many models ranging from a few hundred bucks for passive ones to many thousands of dollars for very powerful ones with active crossovers. Good brands include Genelec, Tannoy, Hafler, and even Mackie.
It is very highly recommended that you get ones with digital inputs or get a seperate digital>analog converter. At that point the weakness will be your room. You can build "Helmholtz Resistors" (boxes with a specific volume of confined air) to absorb bass frequencies centered around your major room mode.
burris
Apple has fallen drastically behind in the speaker-wattage department.
It's a real issue. This Logitech speaker system is capable of 1000 watts. 1000! Thats a gigawatt! Meanwhile, my pathetic Apple SoundSticks - which they still sell on the AppleStore, are capable of a mere 65 watts.
Absolutely brutal. Never mind the quality, or the aesthetics... it is plainly obvious to myself (and indeed, everyone here) that the higher number of watts clearly indicates complete superiority in my listening productivity. It is folly to argue otherwise; I mena, there is the number. 1000 watts vs. 65.
Apple better damn well come up with some 1500 watt speakers in the next 10 seconds otherwise I'm going to go buy some JBL gear and really maximize my hearing of music.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
Just like everything else that has the words "computer" on it related to audio.
If you want really good computer speakers to listen to music on or as a good audio refrence... go to your local guitar center and buy a set of studio monitors and a studio amp... they're over in the mixer section...
For the same amount of cash as these overpriced and horribly overrated junk you can get something real.
I found the most entertaining the 1000 watt rating.. Yeah right. in low-end car audio ratings... I have a Crown stereo amp here that is only 25 watts and cost $400.00 and will kick the crap out of anyone's home stereo that cost around $400.00
a watt rating is 100% useless... tell me the watt rating RMS at a distortion level. anything higher than 0.05% THD is junk.
If an audiophile is going to spend $10,000 to buy a set of headphones, they dont want a PC.
If someone got them to pay $10K for a pair of headphones, they aren't an audiophile -- they're an idiot.
May we never see th