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PATRIOT II Legislation Leaked
Buck Mulligan writes "The Center for Public Integrity reports that it has obtained a copy of PATRIOT II -- a huge law enforcement power grab that is intended to build on the USA PATRIOT Act. It's called the 'Domestic Security Enhancement Act.' CPI says it would increase domestic intelligence gathering and surveillance while reducing judicial review and public access to information. For more on the first PATRIOT Act, see the EPIC page."
Section 501, "Expatriation of Terrorists": This provision, the drafters say, would establish that an American citizen could be expatriated "if, with the intent to relinquish his nationality, he becomes a member of, or provides material support to, a group that the United Stated has designated as a 'terrorist organization'."
Would that include the US government for giving $43 million to the Taliban in May of 2001 for their "War on Drugs" efforts?
Call Gore. I think we just figured out how to evict the squatter.
"Some people fight so hard for freedom until there is nothing left of it."
Though I strongly suspect the whole terrorism-panic and sudden need to attack states declared "evil" has other causes... Maybe the weapon industry needs new markets or the oil industry wants more countries to exploit... (and these are George W.'s friends so he is a nice guy and helps them)
I don't need a signature.
Section 501, "Expatriation of Terrorists": This provision, the drafters say, would establish that an American citizen could be expatriated "if, with the intent to relinquish his nationality, he becomes a member of, or provides material support to, a group that the United Stated has designated as a 'terrorist organization'." But whereas a citizen formerly had to state his intent to relinquish his citizenship, the new law affirms that his intent can be "inferred from conduct." Thus, engaging in the lawful activities of a group designated as a "terrorist organization" by the Attorney General could be presumptive grounds for expatriation.
so... they can take citizenship from anyone in an organization that they deem a terrorist group.
example:
i join a group that does guerilla-type media distribution, like maybe stuffing newspapers in those quarter machine things with pamphlets which include dying afghan children. then one day a police officer catches one of us, gets the group name out of them and the group members.
the government could then deem us terrorists as we scared many-a-christian-family with those pictures.
our citizenship could be revoked and we could be thrown out of the country.
god bless amerika
sig - .
It reminds me of some german Pastor who said something like
"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."
Open your eyes. Look around. Watch the news.
Jailing a 15 year old guy because his father is a member of Al-Qaeda is not what I would call fair.
Man, I love a good conspiracy story. Tinfoil hats for all!
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> I can still do the same shit I was doing even before bush > was in
> office or even before Patriot.
I take it you're white? Your name doesn't sound in any way shape or
form like it is rooted somewhere in the far east?
>The DMCA was put in BEFORE bush and even that hasn't
> affected my
> life.
YET, the DMCA is something that the industry wants, they try to use
it (just read the newssites, or even look at slashdot), give it
another year or two and you WILL feel the effects (like when you buy
your new HDTV TV).
> Have any of YOU been hauled off to jail out of the blue?
I had the "pleasure" TWICE to sit around with Immigration for quite
some time, no I am not an american citizen and that was before 9/11
but I wouldn't be surprised if they would decide to question me again
the next time I fly into the US. Much more so now that Germany seems
to be falling into the "Axis of Evil".
> The day that ANY of these things happens to someone
> that is NOT an extremely shady character to begin with,
> is the day you can bitch.
Buddy of mine, Israeli, trying to visit the states from Canada,
because of his "accent' they pulled him out and had 12 hours of very
interresting discussions with the immigration officers. Yeah I would
say that is completly harmless.
A lot of the thigns the US is discussing has been done in other
countires (e.g. Germany with the national ID card).
The problem with things like the Patriot Act is that it WON'T prevent
anything, it will just give you an illusion of security.
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If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
But taken to the base level, both current major political parties want one thing: Big, caretaker government.
Neither is particularly great with human freedoms. Democrats believe I should not be allowed to keep what I make, and force me to do things I don't care to do with my property. Republicans are more likely (though certainly not guaranteed) to give me more leeway with my own property, but want to tell me what I should and should not think.
Tell me, then. Why should I vote for either party?
One aspect of the current erosion of our freedom is that it is unprovable whether it is successful. It is a classic case of success being indicated by the lack of identifiable events. Thus, the greater our loss of liberties and rights, the more statements we get from our "leaders" that these measures have been successful, and then we loose more rights. If, after all of these measures an actually terrorist event should occur, the argument will be that its because we have not passed strong enough anti-terrorism legistation and the pace of oppression will simply accelerate.
So, we are left with a feedback system that will only accelerate over time.
The terrorists have won... our way of life has been damaged seemingly irrevocably.
It really bothers me the blatant disregard that our elected officals have for what once used to be a wonderful country. I understand that they are trying to do good (I hope), but they seem to have forgotten that government is supposed to be FOR the people, BY the people. The founding fathers encouraged us to distrust the government which is exactly why it was given limited powers to work within. By allowing bills like this pass into law we as citizens are showing a criminal amount of disregard for the future of this nation. Your citizenship is not a free ride, with it comes responsibilities as well as privelidges and rights. Nobody likes what is happening, but nobody seems to be doing anything more than just bitch. Let's quit our bitching and finally do something about it!
E pluribus unum
I wrote a short piece comparing Bush to Hitler a little while back:
http://www.furinkan.net/display.php?pageid=119
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
I've always tended to be rather left-leaning, and during the '90s I heard the constant tirades from the fringe-right about the coming abuses of power from the U.S government.
My typical reaction was one of amusement and sadness that people had actuallly convinced themselves that such things could and more importantly, *would* happen. Especially in the short time-frame predicted.
I stopped liking Clinton years before he left office (Democratic Party != Left Wing, Bill Clinton != Ethical Man), yet I did not partake in the growing hobby of "List evil things the Clinton Administration will do next year".
Clinton left office, and a man touted as being responsible and ethical moved into the White House.
The rest, as they say, is history.
The push to circumvent the very spirit of our Constitution has been constant since 9/11. Though, I don't think a Democrat would have done any better - they have become a spinless party unable to even find a platform. Don't bother calling them Left Wing - that is so 40 years ago. They don't even know what they stand for and are unwilling to fight anything the Bush administration proposes. They have become the CNN of poltics. The people that just agree with whomever is in power 99.999% of the time. They could have done something, they could have tried to change the course of events, before the post-9/11 legislative momentum built up to the point it is at now.
But they did nothing.
And now they still do......nothing.
The fringe-right is silent. Their nightmares are coming true, but instead of doing anything about it, they are continuing to talk about what has already occured as if it is still in the future, while they throw their support behind Bush.
The far-left is too caught up in the legacy of the past 40 years to pay attention to anything that is happening today. Instead of uniting to fight the efforts of the Bush administration, they are leaving that to a brave few, while they remain largely fractured and busy with far too many issues to even make a dent. It's embarassing when I'm associated with these people. The left, while idealistic, has become unable to *do* anything with those ideals. Many of their beleifs could change things for the better, and are compatible with even Libertarian philosiphy, but as a movement - a political and social force - they are now a joke.
Too bad we could reallly use ther help right now.
amen. Even over here in europe, conservatitive=nazi nationalists.
When the germans had their election, you had two choices, the christian conservatives who where pushing for less imigration (even though in germany the over 65 portion of the country is at about 30%+....very smart) and school spending cuts (if i remember correctly)....so, keep the smart people out and breed em dumb (shades of america???)....luckily, they JUST lost...but still....JUST!...whats up with people? I think this whole terrorism thing has made people want to fold up into balls, build a fort out of their sofa cushions and hide....anyone who is not from "these parts" is evil, dirty alien...
STRANGER DANGER...
ah well, could be worse, could be raining
all you are, is all you are, i'm so sorry for you.
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
And Ashcroft and Bush, and Republicans in general, are HUGELY pro-gun. So maybe we should try and either sway their views, or work in some other political framework that respects the 2nd Amendment (Libertarianism, anybody?), instead of handing over that fundamental power of the individual, trusting in them to do the Right Thing.
[side note, TJ also said "Firearms are the American yeoman's liberty teeth"]
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
I think he's referring to the American public's seeming complacency with this type of tyranny, so long as they can still have their petty materialistic existence.
... the all the college students decide science is worthless and major in business ... then we have to import scientists and engineers from developing countries ... who the government can "justify" keeping a close watch on (at least, the drones will believe it's justified).
... so let's think our way out of it, and write to our representatives -- all of them. Five letters a piece, under different names, with addresses out of the phone book ...
The most frightening part of it is that those people don't even realize that our whole society would crumble if everyone was a mindless consumer. Who will be left to develop more technology if all the children decide science is boring, and they'd rather play video games
Obviously, this is the way the current setup in Washington would like things to go: the mindless American's won't notice/complain, give them more toys and sitcoms and they'll be fine. Import foreign thinkers, but keep them from voicing their thoughts under threat of being dubbed "terrorists" and deported. Since the vapid drones can't think for themselves, they'll believe it's just their government keeping them "safe".
Seriously, thinking people are already the minority
-=[You cannot consistently judge this statement to be true.]=-
2. if you aren't willing to defend the civil liberties of those who you disagree with (or disagree with you) then you're probably not committed to the concept in the first place. it's easy to defend the right of expression for people who say things you like. or as dr. chomsky puts it "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
3. state sponsorship of christmas is an explicit support for one religion by the u.s. government. "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" and so on. if you are an american citizen you should read jefferson's treatise on this issue (the letter to the danbury baptists) to get the full grok on the seperation of church and state.
personally i find it amazing that with all the high-falutin' talk about the us gov't being secular and non-discriminatory that the bible is still used in the court house and religious organizations continue to receive preferential tax treatments and other "special rights".
2 1337 4 u!
Exactly. Which is what Phil Zimmerman has been saying for years:
"Perhaps you think your email is legitimate enough that encryption is unwarranted. If you really are a law-abiding citizen with nothing to hide, then why don't you always send your paper mail on postcards? Why not submit to drug testing on demand? Why require a warrant for police searches of your house? Are you trying to hide something? If you hide your mail inside envelopes, does that mean you must be a subversive or a drug dealer, or maybe a paranoid nut? Do law-abiding citizens have any need to encrypt their email?
What if everyone believed that law-abiding citizens should use postcards for their mail? If a nonconformist tried to assert his privacy by using an envelope for his mail, it would draw suspicion. Perhaps the authorities would open his mail to see what he's hiding. Fortunately, we don't live in that kind of world, because everyone protects most of their mail with envelopes. So no one draws suspicion by asserting their privacy with an envelope. There's safety in numbers. Analogously, it would be nice if everyone routinely used encryption for all their email, innocent or not, so that no one drew suspicion by asserting their email privacy with encryption. Think of it as a form of solidarity."
However, some of my friends think I am a crackpot for signing my emails; I do it for solidarity. I wish there was a bit less tech-looking way to do it. I honestly believe it's not the complexity, but appearance that is holding back most people.
They, Bush/Ashcroft/etc. are trying to instigate another 9/11 to heighten fear enough that they can get through all their proposed changes.
It's too antithetical to the guiding principles of the USA for them to get that stuff through under any normal circumstances. The conservatives would desert them on Constitution issues and executive powers issues (maybe Bill Of Rights issues, but the executive powers issues are what true Conservatives would balk at)
So, they are doing everything they can to BAIT further terrorist attacks. Flatten Iraq, because it isn't useful for producing an immediate attack, but bait North Korea and anger them without intimidating them directly, in hopes THEY will launch some sort of attack that can be used for political purposes. Insult and scorn the UN and associated bodies in hopes that this will produce people who are so convinced the US is out of control that they'll launch some sort of attack- which can be used for political purposes.
It's not about regime change in Iraq at all. It's about regime change here. The regime being replaced is Congress, the judiciary, etc... the only way to do that is to get somebody to attack the US enough that the citizenry are reduced to a state of cowering fear and will do anything they are told.
Like I said, fear is a lot more effective than patriotic euphoria. That's just power politics...
Most slashdotters seem to oppose the patriot act, and if you already oppose it, by all means stop reading this post.
If you feel that the patriot act is a step in the right direction you should consider the specific powers that the law grants to law enforcement. Imagine that you are of chinese descent. Now, imagine that the new terrorist scene is in china and involves some sort of democratic movement or another. The US is on the lookout for chinese terrorists because they recently bombed a couple buildings in Utah. You have been e-mailing your cousin in shanghai just to keep up on things, but you use encryption to do it because you're concerned with your privacy. The government knows you e-mail someone in china because they are unrestricted in monitoring your e-mail. They aren't sure if you're a terrorist, so they go ahead and tap your phone lines and your internet connection(which they've already been monitoring). While they're at it they screen your whole family(BTW you work at your dad's chinese restaurant). The find out your aunt is illegal(mental note, deport).. they also make sure the IRS audits your dad's restaurant, just in case you are laundering money for terrorists. No evidence of terrorism, but they're missing some receipts, so it costs your dad a couple grand in fines. They haven't found anything on you yet, except that you downloaded a bunch of movies and stripped them of encryption.. violation of federal law here, but they aren't going to prosecute yet because it's too small time for them to worry about. So far you don't even know you're being investigated. Just when they're about to give up your little brother downloads the terrorist cookbook. Just what they wanted.. bang, they search your house(no warrant needed). They don't find any bombs, but they do find a lot of stuff they say could be used for making bombs. They also find a ton of pirated software and an eighth of pot that isn't even yours(girlfriend). They don't think they can nail you on the pot because it's unrelated to terrorism(until the next freedom patch), but they are holding you without bail and not allowing you a phone call. You're so scared you tell them who's pot it is(she's searched and arrested because they have probable cause now). They hold you for several days during which time your family is told nothing but 'don't attempt to flee'. Eventually you are let loose because they don't have anything on you, but now everyone at your school thinks you're a criminal and they won't let you in the computer lab anymore.
That's just a small annoyance compared to what could really happen... and just because it hasn't happened to us yet, don't think it won't. Wouldn't you feel more comfortable if it couldn't happen?
My Blog
Yes this is bad. Is it law yet? NO! Will it be passed? I don't know. Knowing about it now does help. Labeling Bush as bad isn't fair. Things are different now. When things are like the are now (Orage alert and all) things should be tight. When things relax a bit, things change. My last flight I made last month they did not do any random searches at the gate. I personally am among the few that don't necessarily feel safer because of the additional security. Over all I approve of Bush's actions. BUSH'S actions, not that of our congressmen. I don't think that Ashcroft is fully to blame here either. All we can do now is our duty as citizens. Contact your congressmen. Let them know we don't like the proposed bill. Things change becuase we don't do OUR duty. We can't fully blame the president and congress because the ones who are being heard are the ones that are FOR this type of BS and they are just giving their constituents what they want. If enough people say hey this is going too far, well, then things will change. If we sit on our hands and do nothing, well, we deserve what we get. Again, I would like to see the relevant laws regarding non citzens. I believe the constituion protects CITIZENS and not those form other countries. We SHOULD be suspicious of those from suspect countries. These people do not have as many rights as we do and are treated accordingly.
Gorkman
I find it so strange that Bush and co. have come this far. I remember after the 9/11 thing some frenchman publishing a book disputing the terrorists origions. He was ridiculed across the globe.
Now I wonder how wrong he actually was.
Some things that continue to make me wonder:
1.The only recorded biowarfare attack on Americans were the Anthrax letter attacks shortly after 9/11 in the US in which 5 died and some 20 people became ill. Even though there was the whole might of the FBI behind this no perpetrator has ever been found. It seemed during the investigation that some US scientist , Dr. Stephan Hatfield, who had been working at Fort Detrick in Maryland, was the chief suspect. Nothing ever came of that. The investigation was, as claimed by the FBI, blocked by the CIA, who refused to divulge information on that laboratory. As per usual, most have forgotten this incident. What really happened there??
2.A day or two after the 9/11 attacks a passport belonging to one of the highjackers turned up in the rubble in NYC. I still find it preposterous that a passport, made of paper, is found so quickly in a mountain of rubble from the WTC and that the investigators determined as quickly as they did who the perpetrators were, as oppposed to the investigation on the Anthrax attacks where nothing has ever happened.
I think, what is happaning in the US now is very reminiscent of what happened in Nazi Germany prior to world war two. in 1938, I think it was, a Jew assasinated a German Diplomat in Paris. This gave the Nazis the fodder they were waiting for and it triggered the Reichs Kristalnacht in which hundreds of synagogues were burnt and mayn jews lynched. Around that time is also the time the Nazis introduced compulsory registration of all jews.
I think you have a particularly corrupt government that is laying the foundation for an authoritarian empire building government. I am very worried that the fallout from the coming war in Iraq will trigger world war three, in whatever form it happens. The North Koreans seem to think that their backs are against the wall and might very well take every one with them they can if they feel they have no way out. India and Pakistan may well go to war as a result of all of this and I don't expect China to sit idly as it all goes to hell.
May God help us all.