Slashdot Mirror
Cashless Society
roomisigloomis writes "France has released "en masse" a new card to replace money. No private information is stored on the card and anybody can use it. Just like cash: you lose it and someone else uses it. Do you think we could be nearing the end of life of paper money?"
I wonder if there will be a way to transfer money directly from one card to another, although I suppose you would need a separate machine for that.
Otherwise you could only use it at places like stores, where they would have a card reader.
Paper money has the advantage over the card because you can see how much you have without accessing that information somewhere else.
Paper money has to be carefully studied and then duplicated with painstaking attention to detail.
Someone could just probably figure out how money is "stored" and just keep on replenishing. Note the card is anonymous.
Money might not grow on trees, but it can be created by computer
i wish the article looked into how the gov't insured that evildoers are not able to illegally hack cards to increase their value (or start counterfeiting cards) ..
the article did mention card refills, so it would seem the chip on the card is (re)writable.
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i do not use drugs, i AM drugs -- Dali
This is actually a good point. One of the advantages of cash is that it can be split into whatever demoniations you have.
For instance, if I have a 45 dollar card and I want you to have 5 dollars, can't do it without a transfer machine (or if you forgot your card). With cash easy, assuming I have a five.
And then counterfitting. Wow, if money is only a string of ones and zeros on a card WOO HOOO. So its digitally signed? great I just bought a 100 dollar card and did a bit by bit copy.
Use a central authority, better hope that thing never gets hacked. Use a distributed method - gonna have SEVERE syncing problems (if it is anonymous then you can't just bill me later for the over charge).
As of right now there is not enough incetive for many to hack a system, make it so it is and you will have script kiddies cloning money - yech.
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
Just as with a credit card or current cash cards that (most) stores use, there would probably be a section of raised lettering that would carry the card's ID number. In fact, if you look at the picture closely, you can even see the numbering.
The main roblem the I see with this is how does business get done then the system is down / power is out? You wouldn't be able to access the DB that store all of the card information, and therefore wouldn't have any way of verifying if there is money on the card that somebody is using or not.
Work sucked, until it became unemployment, when it became slightly more tolerable. -Tet
"never expires" - it does? thats not what the article says...
"never gets damaged" - all physical currency only exists in a physical and damagable form, paper rips, burns, gets washed... plastic money isn't especially sturdy and who wants to keep massive volumes of coins?
the money card would have a database (physically located in several places across the country/world) which is something physical cash cannot offer - a backup
sounds to me like this money card is just as anonymous, safe from expiry and damage than normal cash....
I don't see how this is addressed.
(1) What if the babysitter comes to my house and I owe $4.50. Do we both go to the nearest ATM to transfer onto our cards? Will I have a card swipe in my house (most probably not).
(2) The joke about lap dances someone made before my post actually rings true. How does one pay for these kinds of impromptu needs? How do I loan a friend $1 to get a bottle of pop? Do I give them my card to borrow? Would I give them my wallet? Maybe lap dancers will have card swipes strapped on
(3) What about counting your cash? Simply, how do you know how much is on your card without going to an ATM to get a readout?
(4) How do you give the kids a few dollars to shop or grab a bite? How do you give them one dollar to grab candy before the movie starts? Do you give them the entire card? Again, do you give your entire wallet / purse for a need like this?
(5) If a card gets snapped in half, then what? When a paper bill is ripped, a taped one is still legal tender. What about cards?
(6) Can someone run a bulk demagnetizer over my card and financially wipe me out? This is a serious concern, folks.
How are these simple needs addressed? I also like to think that the days of paper money are numbered -- but how are these needs met?
Maybe withdrawing all paper cash $5 and over, converting US dollar bills to a system like Canadian $1 and $2 coins for small change needs? Coins are much more convenient than paper that gets folded, spindled, mutilated, torn, etc.
With the card, you won't know if you have to go to the to refill it. Nobody knows exactly how much cash they have, and with a card, it's too easy to forget a few purchases and have less than you expected.
What the hell are you supposed to do when someone decides to be an ass and demagnetize your card? Does your money just vanish since you can't scan it and it carries no identifying information?
How's that any worse than when someone decides to be an ass and burn your cash? I'd hardly call it a "fatal flaw" since it's no worse than the alternative in that respect.
Would you rather have a system where they can track your purchases, but provides security for your money, or one that protects your anonymity but doesn't guarantee your money? You can't really have it both ways.
NO CARRIER
From the article:
Because the basic Moneo card is anonymous, there are no privacy or identity theft concerns.
Regardless of whether the "basic" card is anonymous, it's still clearly possible to track the card's use, and by extension, its user, who has to be identified to obtain the money to begin with.
Step 1) $100 were downloaded from John Smith's bank account to card #12345
Step 2) Card #12345 was just used to purchase $80 worth of pr0n.
Step 3) Bank sends John Smith a bunch of porn-related junk mail.
The retailer might not be able to ascertain John Smith's identity, but the bank most likely could, if it were part of the network.
And the government certainly could. Not familiar with France, but in US translate "could" as "would."
I hope someone can contradict me here. In particular, I'm wondering if there's a way to anonymize Step 1, such that: 1a) $100 is transferred from John Smith's account to a special secure escrow network which is holding money from many pending transfers. 1b) ATM 385 is given authorization to loads up a card with $100. 1c) ATM 385 loads #12345 with $100 drawn from the escrow network. 1d) After transaction is complete, all bank knows is that $100 is gone from John Smith's account and given to ATM 385. All ATM 385 remembers is that it loaded $100 onto card #12345. It doesn't remember the account it was originally taken from. Does this make sense?
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
Amen to that! I live in the Netherlands, and we have not one but two similar (and afaik incompatible) systems: Chipper and Chipknip.
Now the banks are desperately trying to make their cards more popular by *requiring* them for certain transactions. For example, in some cities they have made deals so you can only pay for parking using one of those cards.
I received mine years ago, and I have *never* used it for anything (I haven't even put any money on it). I find normal money is just as (in)convenient, and I do not see any good reason why I should switch to this fake money.
We have these here in Germany too called "Geld Karte" (Cash/Money Card). They are mostly embraced by the Sparkasse, while most of the major private banks are reluctant to give them to you.
They are used for some aplications and there talk to add an age authentication system too them for the purpose of proving you age to cigarette vending machines. There is also talk to intengrate Crypto functionality so that you may digitally sign documents with them.
However in my mind the killer app would be to be able to use them cheaply for micro payments on the internet.
However to be widely accetable these would have to:
a) Be secure virtually - no electronic counterfitting
b) Be anonymous - Imagine Grandma giving the kids some money triggering an automatic I.R.S. audit. Let that happen once and they are out of buisiness
c) Be cheap. Real money is not for free either since there is considerable labor involved in handing out the money, accounting for the cash and buisiness has to buy insurance against theft.
d) Hardware has to be cheap too. By law the electronic signature has been available for years how every no one is using it since the cost of hardware is just too high. However with a cheap mass market reader there is no reason why this should no become as widely available as floppy drives are now (Sorry Mac Fans no pun intended). By the way as if did read that there is nothing TCPA can do which can't be done with a smart card reader, accept selling new hardware since smart card readers can be bought as an upgrade...
Currently there is one big drawback in all of these systems: All of them require the end user to bear most of the cost of deploying them (they have to pay for the class 3 reader and the smartcard), while buisiness saves a lot of money because processing is way cheaper.
A system similar to this was rolled out here in Sweden a couple of years ago - CASH as it is aptly named. Now, about 4 years later, it's all but dead since nobody thought it was a good idea. As far as I can see, the only thing people use these cards for these days is parking meters.
I think it failed here because of a few simple reasons. People here were actually smart enough to see that a major reason for the banks to try this approach is for them to make more money without any benefit to the customer. Doesn't it sound like a banker's dream? I can hear the banker's going:
- I've got a great idea! We'll make our customers keep all their money - including their cash - in our bank, but we won't pay them any interest on that "CASH"-card.
- Sweet! And why don't we charge them a small fee to obtain the card in the first place?
- They won't know what hit them!
Sure, it sounds great with a cash-less society, but until the system is free to use and has all the advantages of cash, it just won't catch on.
The anonymity of cash is attractive, definitely. And it's current durability is impressive, and in most countries guaranteed. But really, it's a pain in the ass. You have to finger through your wallet for the right notes and then you invariably receive a bunch of coins that you don't want to carry around.
Wouldn't it be mcuh easier to swipe some card that doesn't require a PIN, doesn't contain any personal info, is as tough as your VISA and doesn't require a phone/data call to some central service?
The database part sounds an awful lot like it could be used to trace transactions - thus not making it ideal when you want to pay off illegal labour, buy a car under the table to get away from state tax, or convert those drug millions you made on the street into something mroe useful than an e-card to you (i.e. a house, gold, bearer bonds).
e-cash will never take off until people can be 100% sure they can use it in dubious (viewed more or less illegal by the state) activities - like tax evasion, black labour, illegal gambling, drugs, etc.
Money still seems like a safer bet since it can't be backtracked - for a system like this to work they need to be able to see and check the transaction history (lest a Slashdotter will crack the card and start making his own money - thus they need to be able to check and verify all transactions so no "creative" money has arrived on the card).
Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
For smart-cards, the most up-to-date information about how much money do you have in it sits in the card itself:
If you loose your card you loose the money you have in it. Whoever finds the card can use the money in it. (just like cash)
Also if you damage the chip in the card you loose the money in it. Same as if you burn some dollar bills:
Except that you can be de-magnetized by someone simply getting near you. At least they have to actually pick your pocket in order to burn your cash.
Perhaps they could have the tracking optional? Say, you have the option to put your tracking-code on the card so that the balance is kept on the servers. That way if you're worried about losing it you could voluntarily give up your privacy, but if you want it anonymous then you could, but not have any recourse if it gets erased.
Travis