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Yamaha To Withdraw From CD-R/RW Business

Posted by timothy on from the when-giants-reconsider dept.

An anonymous reader writes "What's going on. When I first heard this I thought it was a bad joke. They make great burners! 'Tokyo, February 5, 2003 - Yamaha Corp. decided at a board meeting to cease sales of CD-R/RWs for personal computers and to withdraw completely from the business by the end of March 2003.'" Does any other company make burners that can burn an image on the CD?

30 of 335 comments (clear)

  1. it's all about dvd's baby... by goofballs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    cd-r/w's are running into the $40 range these days- yamaha doesn't want to / can't compete at those prices, so they'll stick with higher margin dvd burners. makes good business sense.

    1. Re:it's all about dvd's baby... by GreatOgre · · Score: 3, Informative

      Somebody more familiar with the issue can correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes my explanation.

      Most CD drives today are rated according to their linear velocity. I think, not sure, that most CD drives spin at a constant angular velocity (RPM, rad/s); therefore, when you are near the center of the disc, the linear velocity is slower (lin_vel = radius * ang_vel, or something similar to this at least). Similarly, near the outer edges, the linear velocity is substantially larger.

      In the good old days, most CD drives were rated according to their angular velocity. The CD always spun fastest when reading near the center of the disc and slowed down when reading the outer edges. You can only spin a disc so fast before it tears apart. (Some guys did an experiment to see how fast you can spin a CD before tearing apart; however, I forget the URL.) If I remember correctly, I think these drive maintain a more uniform transfer speed off the CD as well.

      Or at least I believe that's correct.

    2. Re:it's all about dvd's baby... by be-fan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Your explanation is dead on, your nomenclature is reversed. Current CD drives are CAV (Constant Angular Velocity) while before they were CLV (Constant Linear Velocity).

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
    3. Re:it's all about dvd's baby... by singularity · · Score: 5, Informative

      Point 1: CD speed (both reading and writing) is measured in data/time. In this case it is measured in chunks of 150kb/s. That is to say that a 2x CD-ROM drive could read 300kilobytes per second.

      Point 2: You make reference to this - angular velocity and linear velocity are going to be different based on where you are on the CD.

      The outer tracks obviously hold more data - the track length is longer ("track length" probably not the technical term, but I am using it to mean how far it is around at a certain spot on the CD). Using our familiar Circumference = (2 * r * pi) formula, we can see that as the radius increases (the distance away from the center of the CD), the length of the track length increases, as well.

      CDs store data as digital data stored in non-reflective pits on an otherwise reflective surface. These pits are a certain distance apart. This distance does not change as you get father out, and the size of the pits is a constant, as well.

      Think about cars parked in a spiral pattern. The farther you get out from the middle, the more cars are in each loop.

      So what does this mean for our CD-RW? Toward the middle of the CD, the CD is spinning at a certain constant rate. However, only so many pits are going by each second. For a 52x CD-RW, there are about (24) x (150kb) each second. As the laser moves out (since CDs burn from inside to the outside), the CD RPM stays the same, but now there are more pits flying by each second. Towards the outside, there are (52) x (150kb) each second.

      So the angular velocity (RPMs) does not change that much while burning. The linear velocity, however (how many pits are going by) changes greatly, more than twice as much.

      This is actually somewhat of an over-simplification, since modern CD-RWs use a mix of both CAV and CLV technologies.

      Two (or three) interesting side notes: DVDs work using several more technologies, but the end result is the same. For one thing, the pits used in DVDs are much smaller, as are the tracks. This allows a lot more information to be stored on a single DVD. In addition, DVDs are capable of using multiple layers using different laser wavelengths. So when the DVD player changes layers, the laser changes wavelengths, allowing it to "ignore" the pits on the first layer and instead read the pits on the second layer.

      In addition, DVD drives are measured using a different unit than CDs. At 150kb/s, a DVD would be an extremely fast CD drive reading off a DVD. A single layer DVD read at 1x is about 1.321 MB/s. More information about the speeds between CDs and DVDs can be found on the DVD FAQ

      An interesting historical note: Laserdiscs could be found in both CLV and CAV formats. CAV (Constant Angular Velocity) discs came first, and had one frame per revolution (or maybe more, but there was a ratio between frames and revolutions). CLV (Constanst Linear Velocity) discs came later, and used a technology closer to CDs - allowing multiple frames per revolution, with the rate being based more on location on the disk. This allows for more information per disc (thus Laserdisc being called "CAV Standard" and "CLV Extended Play"

      And hopefully this has been "more than you ever wanted to know about angular and linear velocity of optical discs."

      --
      - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
  2. profits are leaving the CD-RW market by Indy1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    and yamaha knows they arent in a position to compete with the likes of Lite-on, Msi, LG, etc. Face it, the CD-RW has reached the end point as far as innovation goes. A modern Lite-on burner can record to even the shittiest media, handles most forms of copy protection without grief, can be purchased for under $60, and never coasters a disk.

    The next big frontier is Dvd recorderables, which is still a mess. And i am sure thats what yamaha is looking at for potential profits.

    --
    Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
  3. as long as.. by crumbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ..they keeping making cycles like the YZF R-1 I'm happy. CD burners are a commodity item, I don't care about the brand name. Remember, they are the music & motorcycles company.

  4. In related news..... by mao+che+minh · · Score: 4, Funny

    In related news an RIAA accountant reported the mysterious dissapearence of millions of dollars from the organizations budget. Across the Pacific in Tokyo, a Yamaha senior exectuive just bought himself a new Ferrari.

    1. Re:In related news..... by vrassoc · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...the executive has since claimed that he merely stated in a meeting: "No mo' seedy 'all", meaning, "No more city hall", because he was tired of the endless tea ceremonies that he had to attend with city officials.

      Unfortunately "No mo' seedy 'all" was interpreted by his pretty, blonde secretary who was taking minutes, as "No more CD-R". He has denied owning a Ferrari.

  5. Makes sense: by holysin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    a) burning "images" on a cd i just a marketing thing, generally speaking the average user that burns cds would like to use ALL of the cd for data (or music!!!!) storage. b) as has been mentioned before, cdrws are cheap, they will remain cheap, therefor they can't mark up the cdrws to the place where they will be happy. (Thank companies like lite-on.... I do daily :) ). Yamaha's have always been known as decent burners, if more then a little overpriced. They won't be missed by most of the community.

  6. Well, I work for a small OEM... by Akardam · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... and it's been my experience that there are cheaper and more reliable alternatives out there now. Samsung in particular is what we use most of the time. They're inexpensive and reliable, and we've had maybe 1 bad unit in 500. I don't remember exact numbers, but we used to have a pretty high DOA or >6mo failure on the Yamaha IDE burners (their SCSI burners were always great, but then again they were expensive, too).

    On a broader view, I see that burners are becoming commodized (sp?). Anyone can make a burner these days. Perhaps they'll stay in the semi-cutting edge markets like DVD burning?

  7. not an iso image, an actual picture on the surface by jo_ham · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yamaha released an burner that allowed you to burn an image to the blank portion of a CD-R

    So, if you only filled half the disc with data, you'd have a portion of empty space around the outside where the burner could write an image - say your company logo, or some text or graphics.

    It was slow, however, and only monochromatic. It looked cool though.

  8. This was known for while by Escher0 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I remember reading a review of the burner that makes images on the cd and vaugely rememeber reading that this was going to be their last drive.

    Found the link, its here: http://www6.tomshardware.com/storage/20020927/inde x.html

    and the quote:
    "Since the CRW 3200, Yamaha had been sitting on the sidelines of the speed race with no offer of a 32 or 40X recorder, as opposed to the rest of the providers in the market, though they were by no means resting on their laurels. They were actually developing what was to become their last CD-RW recorder before going on to the DVD+RW."

  9. They will be missed. by jstockdale · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't know how many other people out there were dedicated fans of Yamaha's drives, but I can tell you as a user who owns both their old 6x4x16 and 24x10x40 model of internal SCSI burners that they are really unparalleled. For the upper end market demanding the performance of SCSI (which most other drive makers have abandoned, but alas I won't go off on my SCSI rant today :) these were the best drives, and were reliable (almost all the failed burns were a result of third party software or other software problems that resulted from my own mistakes). I recall many times when I would be burning a cd, while either doing on graphics work, gaming, or watching a movie, and these things kept on burning.

    Its a sad day to see one of the pioneers of burning technology leave the arena. They will be missed.

    --
    **AA: a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes
  10. Overrated images... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Those images were overrated anyways. If you look closely, you could only burn images on areas WITHOUT data. Which means a pretty picture with 15 min of music? No thanks.

    The only use I could see is if you had your portfolio / resume on there with maybe 100 megs filled, and the rest filled with the image. Still, no thanks.

    1. Re:Overrated images... by alexburke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd certainly find some use in 700MB CDs filled with 650MB of data and a thin band of text around the outside mentioning what's on the CD. What a neat trick, and I'd never have to use my Sharpie ever again. (Never lose that CD key! Is that an 8 or a B? And so on...)

  11. Re:Doesn't hurt me by Zathrus · · Score: 4, Informative

    Of course, tech geeks who really have a clue know that it doesn't matter anymore.

    Virtually all of the CD-RW's out there can burn any CD, regardless of copy protection, as long as you use the right software. None of them cause buffer underruns. And while they may not be better than a Plextor, they're not worse either.

    Of course, if you include cost then they are better - about 1/2-1/4 the price. For the same stuff.

  12. Who cares... by jonr · · Score: 3, Funny

    I only use Trogdor Burninator CD-RW drives...

  13. Re:beat goes on by Zathrus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    modems

    Except for the majority of the world who can't get any form of high speed access. But cell phones and landlines work just fine for low speed modems.

    wired keyboards/mice

    Except for the vast number of users who don't like replacing batteries in their keyboard/mouse, don't like the interference problems, and don't like the additional latency.

    700~800mb CDs

    Ok... I'll agree these are doomed to obscurity, but not for another 5 years or so. Maybe more. The DVD rewriteable market is still busy screwing itself due to a lack of standards. Until one clear standard comes about (or the various standards become irrelevant due to writer and reader interoperability) CD-R/RW is going to keep a huge chunk of the market.

    analog displays

    Except that CRT tubes still give far better blacks than any digital display, and do better than any current production method for color range, color accuracy, refresh, and half a dozen other things... yeah, I want my HDTV to be DLP/LCD/LCOS/D-ILA, but it has a lot less strenuous requirements than a monitor.

  14. Re:I never liked Yamaha by NoahsMyBro · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've ranted about Yamaha on many web forums previously, so I'll be brief here.

    In a nutshell, I bought a Yamaha SCSI CD-RW drive about 3 or 4 years ago for about $300. Within 2 months it died. For over a year Yamaha Tech Support (including Phone, Fax, & Email) absolutely, stubbornly insisted the problems were software-related, in spite of the fact that I had tried the drive with multiple software packages, on 3 different PCs running 3 different OSes.

    Then, one day I worked up the energy to call them yet again for help. This time, with a record of my previous contacts right in front of him, a rep told me that "the burner certainly did seem to be broken, sorry, and oh yeah, it was out of warranty so he couldn't do anything for me. But in a few weeks there was going to be an unadvertised promotion whereby I could trade in my old unit for a discount on a brand-new one, so I should call back in a few weeks." He adamantly refused to let me speak to a supervisor, repeatedly claiming he was the top guy and there was nobody above him I could speak to.

    Since then I've refused to knowingly buy anything from Yamaha (including a Ford SHO with a Yamaha-engine), and I've told anybody that will listen about this.

    I only hope this is the start of a steady downfall for the crooks.

    (Sorry, I tried to be brief, but got carried away...)

  15. CD-R(W)s are Dead by MBCook · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Let's face it, there isn't a future in CD-R(W)s. They are no longer the huge storage they used to be, and they cost so little that it's hard to make money on them. We've reached the maximum speed that we can without putting 12 lasers in each drive, etc. which wouldn't be cost effective.

    The future in in DVD[-+]R(W)s. This is where they will be able to make money, and I hope that they do enter this arena as they are, IMHO, one of the best (if not the best) makers of drives on the market. I also hope that someone brings something like their disc tatoo tech to DVD drives. While this seems like bad news, it's not all that suprising. Time goes on, new technology overtakes the old. It's digital evolution.

    Look at me, I sound like a philosopher. He he he.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  16. Re:I never liked Yamaha by shepd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    >It was in the box, sealed, and it worked. It just wouldn't burn onto any of the CDs I had (Memorex).

    Yeah, Memorex, eh?

    Memorex == OEM Ritek == Junk.

    I've not yet met a burner that handles their media well. Maybe a laser cutter would do...

    --
    If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
  17. Re:I never liked Yamaha by Chupa · · Score: 5, Informative

    My first CD burner was a SCSI 4/4/16 Yamaha drive...failed in less than a year. I sent it back for warranty service after dealing with an extremely rude customer service rep. When I got it back, the drive tray would not open all the way and would instead jam. I opened it up and fixed the problem (bent support) and the drive worked after that. At least it did for another 6 months, whereupon it quit working again (basically would not burn CD-Rs that anything, including that drive, could read, regardless of the media quality).

    So I decided it was time for a new drive. Being the retard I am, I spent $250 on another Yamaha SCSI CDRW drive, this time a 16/10/32 model. It's been about two years, and I once again regret my decision...although it is not as bad as the first drive, this one will not burn CDRs readable in other drives unless I do it with the absolute best media available and at a max speed of 8x.

    About 8 months ago I got a Dell inspiron notebook that came with a TEAC 16/10/32 CDRW drive. This thing works perfectly, not a single problem. Now I do all my burning on it, leaving my expensive Yamaha crap aloneb.

    So basically I also could care less that Yamaha has quit making CDRW drives. Good riddance.

  18. Yes! Sanyo burns image. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny


    http://www.sunpowerusa.com/sanhelkittoa.html

  19. Re:great, now i'll never get an OS X driver... by tupps · · Score: 3, Informative

    Best thing to do is check XLR8yourmac (www.xlr8yourmac.com) and check the drive databases before you buy a CDRW/DVD-RW drive.

    --
    Go out and get sailing!
  20. Re:copy protected audio cd's by be-fan · · Score: 3, Funny

    mute point
    >>>>>>>>>
    That's 'moot' point. But given the topic of discussion, that's a very interesting play on words :)

    --
    A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  21. Re:Doesn't this... by stratjakt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >> Isn't the current standard of CD-Burners kind of going to die when Mount Rainier takes off anyway?

    Why? Mount ranier is just for drag-n-drop packetwriting to a CD-RW, I dont see how it will affect burning real filesystems on CD-Rs at all. Every packetwriting software I've tried (DirectCD, abCD, blahblaCD) has been slow and crappy.

    OS-level support and faster burners will help, but CD-RWs still deteriorate pretty quickly when rewritten. This is the problem with all packetwriting software, the first 100 or so megs is where all the action takes place, and will wear out. Imagine a HDD that has sectors that go bad when they're rewritten only a few dozen times. This is what delayed standards, IMO; it's a stupid idea.

    I wouldnt send software to a client on a MtR disk any sooner than I'd send it on a stack of floppies.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  22. This does not surprise me by cdn-programmer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There is no money in it. Other companies like Fujitsu also pulled out of part of the industry - IE. IDE hard drives.

    If you look at the HP line of laser printers I think you'll see they cheapened and cheapened them from the Laserjet III to the present models.

    Then look at your consumer PC's and we see the same thing... cheaper and cheaper - but a few years ago they had 5 or more PCI slots - now we see 3 slots - but in a mini tower. haha.

    Power supplies also are compromised.

    How about warrenties on hard drives? The drives we bought 10 years ago would run for 150,000 hours MTBF = 17 years. I have hard drives that have been in use for 17 years. Seriously! I got a pair of maxtor 350 MB ESDI drives that started out in a VAX. They are still running.

    Does anyone think that the drive they buy next year with a 1 year warrenty is going to still be functioning past 2015?

    How about 2010?

    If people want cheap I guess they get cheap. If they want quality I don't know where they need to go. Personally I'd rather pay more and get better quality.

  23. Re:Doesn't hurt me by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "But any tech geek worth his salt knows Plextor is besto. I have an old plextor 8/4/32a. It burns a cdr in about 10 minutes. It can get by any sort of copy protection with the appropriate software. And I've never had buffer underrun. Ever. The newer Plextors are even faster and even more high quality. No burner is better."

    You've got that right. I've owned 2 plextors now (both IDE CD-R/w drives) and they were 100% solid with no problems ever. And I never found a copy protected CD which couldn't be properly ripped and then backed up with my drive.

    One other good thing is that if you life in Europe and buy a Plextor burner, you'll get a copy of Nero, which is IMO one of the best burning programs out there. Too bad they ship the Roxio EasyCD crap in North America.

  24. Re:Doesn't hurt me by antirename · · Score: 3, Funny

    I have a Plextor, and I love it. Hell, I spilled beer in it and still works :) Try that with a lesser drive. If you spill a beer down the front of your computer, just wiping the mess off the case doesn't quite work. Beer is sneaky, and will wick into the cracks around CD trays, making the effort pointless. You will have to take the drive out and clean it of all traces of beer, especially the beer that is gluing your tray in place. Of course, this information is purely subjective as I haven't actually tried this with a lesser drive. If you want objective information instead of personal pet peeves and experience, spill some beer in your drive. Then let me know how it worked out for you. The guy with the "don't feed your computer beer" sig may have other insights on this issue.

  25. Just another player in a saturated market by default+luser · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yamaha stepped into the market when Plextor was king, promising to lead the unwashed masses to Partial CAV heaven.

    But Yamaha never really delivered, from a quality standpoint, and once everyone jumped on the Z-CLV bandwagon there was no chance. Today, Lite-On rules the market with cheap reliable CD burners. Anyone who can't beat them has to either move on the DVD recorders, or get out of the market altogether.

    Even Plextor will succumb, soon enough. When you can buy reliable 48x CD writers for $50, even Plextor's cherished name cannot sell their overpriced burners.

    Good riddance. I don't care who makes my floppy drive, I have a feeling in a few years I won't be caring who makes my CD-RW either.

    --

    Man is the animal that laughs.
    And occasionally whores for Karma.