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Whether (And When) To Buy HDTV?
zzxc writes "A NBC local station in Indiana is carrying an article on whether it is smart to buy a high definition television now or later. While it isn't very technical, it does provide some practical insight. Keep in mind that the FCC deadline for television stations switching to HDTV is December 31, 2006." I don't think I want another television screen that can't also be a computer monitor.
how about when i can afford one? (college is expensive)
mechanicos ergo cogito
Gametab - Game Reviews Database
The 2006 deadline is for having DIGITAL broadcasts, *not* High-Definition. They are two seperate issues right now. While there will be a set-top adapter available to convert digital to analog for older TVs, it is unknown as to whether or not these will actually be inexpensive enough to warrant not just purchasing a new television set. It is also very likely that stations will maintain an analog broadcast if it proves to be useful in their area (perhaps where the demographic is not likely to upgrade old systems).
Hear that, CBS? You'd better keep analog up for your demographic (the old farts that don't want to give up their old console Zenith from the 1970s).
Jethro73
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
This called HAVi - Home Audio Video integration. Read more at http://www.havi.org/
Soon we will have to buy a DTV converter. There is no guarantee that HDTV will ever become a reality; it's just DTV that is required by the FCC.
DTV has 480-line modes, as well as 1080 lines.
With any of several HDTV tuner cards (HiPix, AccessDTV, and MyHD, to name three) you can do timeshifting and in some cases editing of HD material. For example, I record "Alias" in HD every week and archive it to DVD-R. It's a much more versatile option than a simple HDTV set-top tuner box. All of those cards will output either composite or RGB to feed into an HDTV set. If you subscribe to DISH Network and you have the right kind of satellite receiver, you can feed HD HBO into one of those tuner cards for timeshifting as well.
An issue near and dear to my heart:
First off, I bought an HDTV capable RPTV (rear-projection television) in April of 2002. It's a nice set, I mainly bought it because it was highly discounted as a customer return, a few scuffs, and nearly 40% off the normal price so I jumped on it.
My main motivation was to have a 16:9 format television because I love widescreen and can't stand mangled versions of movies designed to squeeze into the wrong sized screen. (See the Widescreen advocacy site for more info.).
This set has Y-Pr-Pb input (wideband component) which and supports 480p and 540p/1080i and upscales 480i beautifully. The results of this is gorgeous displays of widescreen DVDs.
My intent was to eventually have some HDTV to watch, but it hasn't happened. First, I live in an apartment. My cable company is clueless and does not carry any HDTV programming. There are some that do (Time-Warner Houston - 9 channels). My other options are satellite, or local broadcast. Neither of which really thrill me with the aspect of having to ask my landlord about installing stuff on his roof.
Aside from actually having the signal available, usually with satellite you need more than the basic receiver box you get for free when you sign up, you need one that goes for $400+ (last I checked it was 500). So that sucks.
So, net result, I own an HDTV set and still don't get to watch any high-res content. I'm happy though since my anamorphic widescreen DVDs look gorgeous. But I'd love to have some HDTV to watch. Eventually....
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Just a side note: The us "deadline" for digital TV does not mandate high definition, just that stations broadcast in digital format, which could simply be 480i upscaled to 480p (which is one of the standard digital formats).
Programming is keeping me. While the major networks seem to do everything in HDTV now, most cable networks dont (at least the ones I watch). For example, as far as I know the only Hist/TLC/Disc/Etc channel that is HDTV is Discovery's special HDTV channel. And I won't get any benefit for most of the shows out there (like all the old sitcoms, etc).
Cable/Sat is keeping me. To get HDTV cable I have to rent an expensive box from the cable company, instead of just plugging a cable into my TV (I don't have digital cable, it's not worth it for me). To get my DirecTV, I have to have an oval dish (or a second circular dish) IIRC, AND a sattalite box that instead of costing me $100 costs me $500. I'm not going to pay that kind of fee ontop of the premium I'll be charged over the normal service fee ontop of paying way too much for a TV.
Tivo is keeping me. I want to buy a Tivo and plan to when a good Series 2/DirecTV combo box comes out. But I am not going to buy a new TV so that when Tivo records sitcoms and such for me, they're not in HDTV. I know they are comming out with an HDTV model, and when it comes out I'll give better consideration to buying an HDTV.
DVDs are keeping me. HDTV was finalized after DVDs, IIRC. When DVDs change (Blu-ray, which was recently put into production) they might support some new/better resolutions and I want a HDTV that will support them.
Features are keeping me. A quick look at Sony's site shows that a 32" HDTV is going to set me back $5000. My 32" Sony CRT TV cost me about $350. Yet the HDTV doesn't have PIP (I do), a V-Chip (not that I use it, but I've got that too). It doesn't have Channel naming (I don't use that, but oh well ;). It doesn't have more video inputs that I have (if I'm going to pay an extra $4500, I'd better get at least 1 more input). I doesn't have Firewire/i.Link (something that I'm going to want in an HDTV). Why should I pay $4500 more for something that's inferior to what I'm already using.
Standards are keeping me back. I'm worried that the FTC is going to change standards soon, and then I'll have to buy a $300 converter box to use my "new" TV. I guess this going with the DVD thing above. I don't trust that the TV I'll buy will continue to work as I want it to. By the way, weren't we all supposed to have HDTV by 2000? Then by 2003? Why should I buy one now, when they'll move adoption up to 2009 next, then 2012. I'll just wait 'till things actually get adopted and then get one. Why rush in with that kind of money on the line.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Here's a little blurb discussing the differences if anyone's interested
Article
Posting as directed.
There's another guy around here from Tweeter who posts... help me out if you're out there, dude...
:) CBS will also do 1080i, and they'll be doing HDTV in the studios, requiring no upconversion from local affiliates (that's the current news, anyway, that I have).
:)
Anyway. HDTV sets do *not* have to cost $6,000. You can get a HDTV-capable set for as little as $1400 from Sony. That's a nice 32" Wega flatscreen.
OK, what's HDTV-capable and HDTV? Here ya go.
A "true" HDTV set generally means that the TV set has the off-air tuner built in to the set. That means you can put up an antenna that can receive in the 54-860Mhz range, and if your local network is broadcasting a HD signal, your set will display it.
HDTV-capable TV's generally don't have the tuner. Many of their components are the same (Mitsubishi is a good example of this), but you'll need either an outboard tuner - about $800 - or a cable box/dish box that supplies the HD signal to your set.
High Definition TV generally refers to the picture resolution. DVD for baseline purposes is 480 lines of horizontal resolution. HDTV is in several formats, with two main choices for networks. Cheap-ass networks or local repeaters may just use 480p (progressive), as it's the easiest for them to do. Next step is 720p, which is what ABC uses, and why those of you who got to see the Super Bowl in High Definition went "Woah!"
DiscoveryHD is in glorious 1080i - which is like looking through a freakin' window.
HDTV can also carry true Dolby Digital 5.1/DTS surround, so your HDTV movies can be as great as the theater. Or better!
The commercials during superbowl probably looked weird for a few reasons. The HDTV format is *likely* going to be 16:9. National ads were either upconverted at the studio to 720p, or shot natively on HD cameras. Local insert ads were likely (unless you're in a large market) standard def, so they were either boxed on the sides, or stretched to fit like other fullscreen material.
The HD conversion can be done either at the head-end (CBS, NBC) or by the local networks. The local networks will likely use cheaper equipment, so don't expect all shows to look fabulous.
Also - with HD on an antenna, it's a cliff effect - you'll either get HD or you won't - if you've got a weak antenna signal now, you'll likely want to make sure you can get a signal amplifier to help you out.
Lastly, the 2006 deadline seems pretty hard and fast ATM - the government (FCC) wants that frequency range back to give to emergency and police services, and will levy fines monthly on broadcasters who are not using their digital equipment. Local broadcasters don't want HDTV, because it does nothing for their revenue stream. It takes more power to run a HD tower, and it's nearly 10x the normal bandwidth of the analog channel. Compression methods improving, blah, blah, blah, HDTV carries a boatload more information than regular TV.
Any doubts I had about HDTV were laid to rest after I saw Shania Twain in 720p glory. The woman looked BETTER in High Definition!
Also:
No Sony rear projection TV for 2003 has the tuner built in. Even the badass XBR series doesn't have it.
Mitsubishi has 3 main levels of TV - the Gold, Platinum, and Diamond series. The Platinum and Diamond TVs have the tuner built in. The difference between Gold and Platinum is in the HDTV tuner, Firewire connectivity, and a Digital Coax audio out to provide your receiver with true surround input. Mitsubishi Platinum and Diamond series TVs also have QAM64 & AV8SB (sp?) cable tuners built into them, so if your cable provider is pushing QAM or AV8SB, your TV can be your set-top box - yeah, it can do the channel guide for you out of the box. And yeah, Firewire ROCKS. Plug in a HD Digital VCR, and boom - "DVCR Connected". Price on a 65" Mitsubishi Platinum? About $4000. That's SIXTY-FIVE INCHES. That's a big-ass TV, folks.
That said, it amazes me that the same people who think nothing of spending $500-$600 on a video card whine and cry about how expensive big-screen TVs are. Have you really LOOKED at a good big screen TV? Compare it to a Hitachi or other cheap brands. You'll see why they're cheap. A good big screen TV is easy to watch at 6' (though you can only watch part of it at a time! *Grin*), and the color saturation, detail, and edge clarity are that much better. Think it's bullshit? That's fine, but ask a reputable store - Tweeter, a good local specialty store - and they'll be happy to give you the straight skinny. If you're really skeptical, take your favorite DVD to the store, and watch the same scene (2 min or so) on several different TVs. As the man said, "Ya get whatcha paid for."
I don't have experience with LCD/Plasma picture quality and longevity as yet, but the HDTV/HDTV-compatible standard holds there, as well.
On another side note, if you buy a new TV, treat yourself to a GOOD progressive scan DVD player. It uses the component inputs, and looks like a million bucks.
Buy what you think you need/can afford, but if you buy cheap now, you'll buy cheap again and again and again instead of a moderate price once.
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
480p is not HDTV. It is just plain DTV. HD is 720p, 1080i and 1080p. This is why FOX is always criticized for only broadcasting 480p, it is not HD.
Q.
Go to here and download some videos (large!) and download the codec here. These videos are REALLY nice, it's like looking at digital photos.. For me it really is like that since my p3-733 just isn't fast enough to play them! Also get Microsoft's shot at HD quality video here.
A true 1080p monitor (it will upconvert 1080i to true 1920 x 1080 progressive @ 60hz) is being released in the US this year, and should find its way to AU in short order, but the price will be horrible. It will initially retail for USD $8,000. :(
:)
Still, it will offer computer users a true high 1920 x 1080 monitor, and an incomparable TV experience.
Get off my virtual lawn, you damned virtual kids!
Pre 1996, cable companies simply rebroadcasted the local channels, since they put it out for free. The networks/affiliates were floored that cable was taking over the market and getting paid for THEIR content and then using shopping channels and premium channels to make money. Telecom Act passes (I think that it was the 1996 one, the BIG one) that let stations designate as must carry (you have to carry them if you are carrying other ones... spanish language, pax, and local-only stations use that), or require compensation (the networks do that).
After a bit of playing chicken (different cable companies squaring off with networks, using the customers as pawns) resulted in the current situation, the networks allow their signal to be carried, but the cable companies have to carry several different random network owned stations, so ABC requires that they pay for ESPN ($2/customer, and it has to be in basic cable), Disney, etc., etc.
But they all haggle, and the network has the power, not the broadcasters. So ABC gets their other stuff on, but the affiliated stations don't get compensation.
So, with DTV, the broadcasters would get even better. Told to come up with a standard for HDTV, they came up with a brilliant solution with 3 HDTV settings (720p, 1080i, 1080p - the last only 24 or 30 frames, no 60 frame mode), an enhanced setting (480p) and then they snuck in 480i for backwards compatibility. The catch is that they got what they wanted, and in the same bandwidth of one analog station, get 6 480i channels, AND they can be made must-carry. All of a sudden, anyone that had a license to broadcast one channel now had 6!
Well, the FCC and cable companies hated this. The cable companies didn't want to give up free bandwidth, and the FCC didn't like looking stupid for giving them the bandwidth for HDTV and instead getting current NTSC quality, with compression artifacts, and 5 channels of infomercials.
So the cable companies whined and the FCC ruled that must-carry only applied to the analog signal. So with their plan squashed, the networks began preparing for HDTV. Remember, only 10% of american households use an antenna for their television (20% is satellite, 70% is cable), so getting the ability to send 6 channels to 10% of the market is pointless. Without must-carry, there is no point to squeezing 6 SDTV signals in. The only exception to this will be PBS stations, where there are normally 2 in a market, may send one HDTV signal, two SDTV signals (the current PBS programming), and use the extra bandwidth for school programming by day or stuff like that).
So HDTV is happening, because there is no advantage to the 6-for-1 deal.
As a satellite customer, I'm happy to add an antenna to get 8 DTV channels locally, but if I was a cable customer, I'm not sure what I'd want (other than to move so I could become a satellite customer). If the networks were sending 36 channels over the air, plus whatever PBS sent, who knows what that does to cable. Realize that analog cable systems are normally only 60-86 channels, and I bet you that 30 channels could cover 75% of American viewing. It would kill basic cable as a way of getting basic television. The original reason for cable was because antennas suck. With digital broadcasts, antennas don't have to suck. And $50/mo (basic cable in Boston) goes a long way towards paying an antenna installer...
I think that HDTV is happening and happening fast. Whatever HD-DVD format comes out is very likely to be sent at 1080p24, which will look awesome on either 720p or 1080i sets, especially with the extra bandwidth available to avoid compression problems. This season, LOTS of HDTV happened. Next season, just about every primetime event and lots of sports will be HDTV. End of this year, HD Tivo and Dish HD-PVR ship. HDTV over cable is coming to some markets this year. HDTV cable-ready systems will roll out soon. And the DVI-HDCP vs. Component vs. Firewire/5C issue was resolved... everything will be supported. DVI-HDCP protects you from needing to go analog for non-MPEG2 systems, Firewire is just (IMO) the superior system.
It's all happening, get on board when you have some spare cash.
Alex
The Apple Cinema HD is a lot cheaper.
I got a widescreen HDTV about a year ago and have loved it. I got an HD cable box and Time Warner is nice enough to broadcast about 7 HD channels for me. BUT, in non-HD they put nice black bars on the screen. Never having owned a rear-projection tv, I didn't realise this was a Bad Thing. I noticed that I now have noticeable burn in where the black bars were (well, kinda inverted...the black bar area is nice an clean, while middle parts of the set look a little yellowish).
I love HD. I love progressive DVD. I love widescreen. I love Xbox. I HATE BURNIN.
Lesson here is, switch to HD ONLY when watching widescreen format broadcasts. Otherwise have your tv zoom to fill the whole screen.
In practice, a phase locked loop creates a frequency comparable with the broadcast carrier frequency, and this frequency is "mixed" with the incoming signal (using a non-linear circuit, which is often a diode or simple transistor circuit). The resulting signal has 4 components, spectrally, at the two original frequencies, their sum and their difference. The difference one is kept (because it effectively eliminates the original high frequency carrier) and the other three are elminited with a simple low-pass filter. The PLL accurately creates exactly the right frequency (well, as accurate as the quartz crystal it has), and the "groping though" the spectrum is an extreemly simple circuit and a low pass filter. There is also the small matter of automatic gain control, but it's also an easy circuit.
This is really pretty simple, and it's been done this way since the days of vaccume tubes... with the exception that the oscillator was tuned by adjusting a coil or capacitor value rather than with a phase locked loop. The reason PLLs are used today is because the complex silicon is less expensive that the coils (involved winding wire) and their moving parts which needed to be calibrated at the factory to match the official broadcast frequencies.
No, the receiver decodes the signal. That's the easy part. It's the tuner that has to find the damn signal to begin with.
As I just described, the modulation of the signal from the RF carrier is quite simple. Tuners were made back in the days when TVs had only a dozen tubes and passive parts hand soldered between the tube sockets (before circuit boards were in common usage).
The comb filters used in all modern receivers, which separate the chrominance from luminance data, are actually quite complex digitial filters (though not expensive with today's technology AND economy of scale). In the old days, the signal was simply low-pass filtered (around 2 MHz) to remove the color signal and capture the luminance.
The thing to keep in mind about tuners is that they've been around a long time.... and they've been implemented long before transistors. Even "cable ready" tuners roughly equivilant to today's were on the market in the mid 80's, when semiconductor technology was at the level of the 4.77 MHz IBM PC and 8 MHz Machintosh.
The TV tuner really isn't that big of a technical challenge.
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
I'll admit I didn't finish reading all the responses (I will - this subject has particular interest to me) but after plowing through ca 100 posts w/o any actual real World experience, I had to pipe up:
Slashdotters should realize that a decent (not great) PC with some free software and inexpensive hardware can be the key to nearly State-of-the-art (compared to the stuff in the retail chains) TV exceeding kilobuck HDTV sets. A spectacular home theater is within the reach of a dedicated high school fry cook working at McDonalds and living with their folks. In fact, get your folks to chip in, and it's *easy*. In Home Improvement, we call it "sweat equity": creating with work and know-how something that would cost mucho dinero to buy (plus learning a thing or two as a major benefit -- I can easily afford an HDTV at Best Buy, but that would be boring to me, or even pointless)
1) Some starting points for real-world solutions:
AV Science: where I hang out now (esp. the HTPC forum, whose Linux section could use more programmers!)
Keohi HDTV (they helped me get started, I assume they're still good)
The Home Theater Spot: Admittedly, a home for guys with more dollars than sense, but at least they experiment instead of spouting sales literature at each other. They also had some great group buys from One-Call, which is as good as it gets for both support and service (if you want to buy)
2) Only now am I retiring my original HTPC (Home Theater PC), a Celeron-466 with 256 MB, a $20 TV card, and a $45 Matrox 450 DualHead with s-video, composite and XVGA outputs - a simple system that would still wow a lot of 'retail buyers'. I can't explain how it changed my TV viewing, how great it is to have a library of 150-300MB archived eps of my favorite shows, etc. Add a few sub-$1/GB HDDs (see Anandtech Hot Deals or FatWallet for bargains), and you'll wonder how you ever tolerated clumsy VHS tape libraries. For archiving, these same forums will tell you how to get 4x DVD-R recorders for as little as $140 at major chains (epending on sales)
3) My current aging workhorse is a Athlon 1700+XP ($209, barebones, from Outpost.com a year ago). I added memory, a sub-$300 MyHD card (some other HDTV cards are as good or better) and a few minor bits like a $50 Dolby Theater Sound card, etc. It'd be much cheaper today, and many of you already run gear that's much hotter than this. The software was mostly free and/or open source.
4) My favored output device is a Toshiba TLP650 LCD projector (native 1024x768, but with a nice 1600x1200 mode) cost $900 on eBay last year - a bit pricey, but that was last year and the last-gen prices are dropping fast. On President's Day (Monday) I got my GF a nice 640x480 projector to experiment with: under $100, and it exceeds the line resolution of any 'normal TV'. You can assemble a decent HTPC/projector for about the price of a "pretty nice" normal TV if cash is tight, and you'll have far more capability, like HDTV and HDTV *recording* (which runs a few kilobucks by itself, retail). Admittedly, I'm comparing "MSRP" TV prices to bargain-hunting for HDTV, but hackers have always been scroungers, right?
To me, the learning is the biggest benefit. I'm not a big fan of most TV, but building my HTPC has been a wonderful (and not *that* pricey) hobby. I don't need cable when most of what is sold locally as "digital cable" doesn't come close to the 1080i resolution I pick up with a $20 "double bowtie" antenna from Radio Shack (As a general rule, any antenna that calls itself an HDTV antenna will be *worse* than a cheap 1950's retro-looking double bowtie)
When your videos are always on your HDD, you'll rule in Geek Debates on SF tech or plots (one-click access encourages the invaluable habit of rigorous fact-checking). You can make outrageous SF music videos or parodies, and otherwise exercise your creative and intellectual side instead of being purely a passive couch potato. Modesty prevents me from linking my own videos, but I'd gladly recommend a friend's site of example TV-SF music videos and parodies
"I don't think I want another television screen that can't also be a computer monitor."
Most HDTVs have DVI or VGA inputs.
For those that don't, quality-wise component YCrCb is as good as RGB VGA for inputs. Radeons have component capability built in, and a $200 transcoder is all that's needed to make any other video card output component. (I've seen plans to DIY a transcoder for $20 or so too.)
This gives a large, widescreen, decent resolution monitor that kicks butt for games. Many current consoles support component outputs also, I've seen many people raving about how great their Gamecube or Xbox looks on their HDTV.
Conversely, if you're not concerned too much with screen size and only with picture quality, you can't go wrong with using a $300 HDTV tuner card (MyHD, available from www.digitalconnection.com)to feed your current monitor.
I added a MyHD to my machine for a total outlay of only $300 beyond what I'd already spent on my system for general computing and gaming. I have an 18" flatpanel, anything better than a 17" CRT will do pretty well as an HDTV resolution-wise.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?