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Ebay's Flexible Privacy Policy
l2718 writes "Ha'aretz has a disquieting report on a presentation made by eBay's senior counsel to law-enforcement officials. Apparently eBay logs all user interaction with them, and will happily hand over all the information to any law-enforcement official without a warrant -- a fax is quite sufficient. He is actually proud of their 'flexible' privacy policy."
http://www.ebay.co.uk/
. ht ml
It appears they have a presence in the UK. Therefore the Data Protection Act applies to them. They make no mention of this in their Privacy Policy:
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/community/png-priv
Oh, dear. Looks like someone should shop them to the Data Protection Registrar...
I don't care how small a point font it was printed in,
as long as it was printed on the site when I registered, or sent to me in an e-mail update.
Now, the legality of defining their policy and having you click-thru is still up in the air with EULAs; just because its printed in legalese doesn't mean it will hold up in court.
But to give me a warm fuzzy, disclose it to me.
Why? Because there are a lot of rip-off artists on e-bay. If it makes it easier for law enforcement to find and fine these scummy ebayers, that is a GOOD THING.
Honestly, I'd rather have E-bay in my corner if I get screwed than to have them go the PayPal route.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Don't bother emailing eBay in cases of fraud. You may or may not get an answer. Sounds like the way to go is to get a local police department to take a complaint. Hand them the request for information to fax for you. Post the results...
Envy my 5 digit Slashdot User ID!
If you have ever been ripped off or defrauded on ebay, you would look at this from a different perspective.
The last thing I want to do when someone defrauds me using ebay is jump through the many legal hoops to obtain a warrant.
As stated, this information can only be requested by law enforcement, and trust me, law enforcement officials don't get off of from violating your privacy and requesting it just for kicks. This is a welcome move that will help people that got screwed recover their money a little easier and a little faster. I, and many other ebayers, welcome the policy.
Witold
www.witold.org
witold.org
I work for a banking service provider (one of the guys who run the banking software for the little 1-50 branch banks). A few years ago we used to get excited because the Secret Service or FBI wanted us to pull some records. These days we almost need a full time person to track this stuff down. This week we got a call from a homicide detective in Columbus, OH. (Is that really a city?) The detail we can provide these guys is pretty complete - even if it's just a lame web banking hack attempt, we can often link that attempt back to a specific ISP user (because the ISP often attaches additional information to web requests - ahem, AOL) as well as tell ever single transaction that account, that IP, that user has done since XXX. And what does it take for people to get the information? At first we only trusted agents with ID at the door, but it really is getting to the point of a phone call and a fax; in fact, the best way to social engineer these days might just be to pretend you're a cop - the person on the other end of the phone (at least at my place) will generally roll over and cough up whatever you want by the second phone call. Fortunately, some management types have started to pay attention to the hack opportunity provided and are beginning to educate the first-line responders to these kind of calls that just because they say they are cops, doesn't mean they really are....
Yesterday I tried to delete my account, but I can not, it will not let me.
I do not ever intend to use ebay, but it seems my account will forever be there.
Annoying that.
The amount of people here who say this is a GOOD thing!
Ebay owns PayPal! That means PayPal is included in this! Its the same as a poilceman going to your bank & asking for your complete financial details... Do you want this too???
This has nothing to do with terrorism! The 9/11 terrorists had plastic knives any other low-tech means...
Except I can pay cash at the mall. And while Macys might have a security camera running that observes me browsing and making a purchase, they aren't archiving the footage forever and they aren't offering to mail copies of my shopping history out to law enforcement. If they did, I would have issues with Macys.
/. still provides the Anonymous Coward facility so one can post insightful or critical comments with some small privacy protection.
I'm completely in favor of eliminating fraud on Ebay. Fraud is a bad thing. But there are other methods by which Ebay could offer fraud protection -- including providing escrow or insurance, or verifying the identities of buyers and sellers (which would be a proactive deterrent to fraud).
Instead, Ebay is trying to freeload on the existing law enforcement system. They want law enforcement agencies, funded by our tax dollars, to police there system for fraud and other bad behavior.
Why? Because faxing someone's history is a lot cheaper than providing escrow services -- especially if you don't even bother to verify the identity of the person requesting the data.
There are some good reasons to preserve people's anonymity, particularly when the technology exists to trace and archive someone's behavior and habits from birth to death.
At least
>> You can get my bid history and my email, but you can't get my credit card number, my home address and phone number, and now they require you to put in a bank account to be a seller.
If you ever bought something from me, I have you home address and full name.
If you do some research on identity theft, that and a little leg work is all that's needed to know everything about you, take all your money, and ruin your credit rating until the end of time.
Especially when banks have 'security' questions like "Mothers maiden name".
BTW, this is the way it's always been on eBay, and has absolutely nothing to do with homeland security.
Why would you think participating in a public auction should provide privacy?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Dataprotection in EU si not about where the data is stored. It is about having the right to know, check , and correct data stored on YOU , EU citizen. Likewise like USA saying they have the right to Sue/pursue people having done sales in the USA, when you do have a transaction with somebody in the EU what count is not where you store the data , but the fact that you have per see a contract/sale with somebody resident in EU.
Else this would have been YEARS that every EU firm would have put their Data server in some off shore haven.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
As if "more laws" was a viable solution to anything.
Well yeah, it does solve certain problems. In this case, we are just catching up with our European brethren. Privacy is about more than just protecting yourself from police on fishing expeditions (although that in itself is valuable). It's also about making identity theft harder to commit. There's also the bonus that you won't have as many people trading your info and bombarding you with ads. I get at least 5 solicitations a week to refinance my FHA mortgage, which I don't have anymore, and I get lots and lots of credit card comeons.
Do you realize just how few of our laws are obeyed anyway?
We mostly obey the ones that make sense - robbery, murder, and arson are fairly rare. The ones we tend not to obey are frequently archaic (the one about requiring a flagman to walk in front of any car driven by a woman) and some are simply unreasonable (most speed limits are a bit low, especially on the highway. Some troopers have even complained about this).
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
But in the U.S. of the post 9/11 and pre-Gulf War II era, helping the "security forces" is considered a supreme act of patriotism.
I see patriotism as the willingness to protect our rights and freedoms, while this smacks of blind nationalism. They're promoting the same spin on this that Microsoft uses with respect to 'secure computing.'- it means what you think it means, but only if you're on the other side of the fence.
There is actually no Constitutional right to privacy.
There is in California...83chrise.nuf
I work for a place with a similar policy -- if law enforcement gets us on the phone, and sends a written request for information, we'll provide it. It's definitely a grey area with regards to privacy policies; even P3P doesn't have a way to specify under what conditions information will be turned over to law enforcement.
And you know what -- I'm happy with our policy. Because 99 times out of 100 that law enforcement has come to us, it's been with a request for records relating to a user that we had already had to deal with for site/email abuse, attempted hacking, spamming, or fraudulent behavior. I'm usually delighted to see the cops after them.
I can definitely imagine scenarios where I would tell management to tell the cops that they need a warrant of subpeona to get the info -- however, that hasn't come up yet.
Anyonymously,
IT guy for well-known website
If you've been scammed and you'd rather not involve the police, just make up your own letterhead, fax it to ebay, get the culprits name and address and extract your own brand of justice.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
I think you're missing a point here.
Suppose you screw me in an auction. I fax in a request for your info, find out where you live, where you work etc.
Now I don't have to settle for just marking you as a bad seller/buyer, I can give personal punishment.
It's not a freedom/safety issue. It's not about violent criminal behavior. It's about money.
Specifically, states are busy passing laws allowing collection of taxes on internet sales, but most of these sales go unreported. (Think about it, did you list last year's eBay sales on your 1040? Well, neither did anyone else.) So this is their method for reporting. And thanks to eBay's "flexible" reporting system, a simple fax request is all that's needed. No need for a time-consuming, cumbersome warrant with all those messy rules about Judge's signatures and prior evidence... just a bored cop's desire to go trolling for evil tax evaders.
"Dear eBay,
Please send us a list of all the transactions in the past 7 years from customers in the 90210 area code.
Thank you,
Sgt. Jackass, Podunk California Police Department."
It's simple. If they want to collect taxes on unreported sales, they start with records from the largest online retailer, the one who hands out information no questions asked. Thanks for nothing, eBay!
I'll bet Google does the same thing as EBay -- it's just that Google isn't dumb enough to brag about it. From New York Times, 28 November 2002, page E6:
"Google currently does not allow outsiders to gain access to raw data because of privacy concerns. Searches are logged by time of day, originating I.P. address (information that can be used to link searches to a specific computer), and the sites on which the user clicked. People tell things to search engines that they would never talk about publicly -- Viagra, pregnancy scares, fraud, face lifts. What is interesting in the aggregate can seem an invasion of privacy if narrowed to an individual.
"So, does Google ever get subpoenas for its information? 'Google does not comment on the details of legal matters involving Google,' Mr. Brin responded."
Some people here seem to be missing the point. The point of requiring a subpoena isn't to harbor terrorists or allow people to rip others off on ebay. The point is that it's a check against an individual police officer having too much power. Do you think every single police officer in the world is a moral individual who lives to serve? Please. I live in Philadelphia. There was a recent scandal right near where I live.
As of mid-1997, five had been convicted on charges of making false arrests, filing false reports, and robbing drug suspects.2 Officers raided drug houses, stole money from dealers, beat anyone who got in the way and, as a judge trying one of the ringleaders stated, generally "squashed the Bill of Rights into the mud."3 Due to exposure of the officers' actions, thousands of drug convictions were under review as of the end of 1997, with between 160 and 300 cases already overturned because the suspects were arrested by officers known or believed to havebeen involved in misconduct.
source: http://www.hrw.org/reports98/police/uspo108.htm
This country is founded on the principle of democracy protected by a system of checks and balances. Without balance, which way will the scale of civil liberties that many of us hold dearly tip? Please THINK about what I am saying. Privacy IS important.
Ask the people at Guantanamo bay what they think about due process. http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=1132767 (16th suicide attempt at Guantanamo Bay. These people are _suspected_ terrorists, which we call "unlawful combatants". They are being tortured, and many of them apparently would rather die than continue to be interrogated. That happens to some people after a year of torture.
Protect your rights now. When you've lost them and you realize their importance, it may be impossible to get them back.
There is actually no Constitutional right to privacy. People like to conjure out of of vapors eminating from other amendments, but it is all smoke and mirrors: it is NOT there. I would be in favor of amending the Constitution to add this right.
The Roe v Wade case pretty much estabished the right to privacy, as that was one of the main points used to win the case.