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PCGen to Charge for Data Files

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the well-isn't-that-nice dept.

ChrisDolan writes "The folks who benevolently dictate the creation of PCGen, a D20 character generator tool (e.g. for D&D), are going to start charging for downloads of data files. This comes after a long series of talks with Wizards of the Coast. The PCGen code will continue to be LGPL, but some of the data files (a separate download) will be more encumbered than just OGL (Open Gaming License). The specific data files that will cost are ones that were never released under OGL and have WotC IP in them. Details on the Code Monkeys site." PCGen is a nifty app, but all this stuff annoys me. I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice.

15 of 158 comments (clear)

  1. Not to be confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    ... with Pgen the Genesis emulator for PS2.

  2. Charge users twice? heh heh by Robotech_Master · · Score: 2, Informative

    In case you haven't noticed, Wizards of the Coast is just about to release a whole new edition of D&D--or at least half of one. 3rd Revised, or 3.5th as it's come to be called. So everyone who shelled out for the PHB, DMG, and MM is going to have to buy them all over again.

    --
    Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
  3. A little offtopic... by travail_jgd · · Score: 4, Informative

    "I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice."

    And if you want to be "current", you're going to have to buy all the 3E books again. WotC is releasing what they call 3.5E -- updates to the three core rulebooks (PHB, DMG, and MM). Going forward, only the 3.5E system will be supported.

    There is no trade-in or rebate offer for owners of the previous edition. So you're going to have to pay for 3E "twice" either way.

    1. Re:A little offtopic... by FroBugg · · Score: 4, Informative

      As I understand it, all or nearly all of the changes have been included in System Reference Document, which you can easily get for free (or maybe a couple bucks if you want to print it all out).

      Apart from fancy binding, pretty pictures, and flavor text that you can get from 3E, what are the 3.5E books gonna have that isn't here?

  4. Brilliant Q&A by Queuetue · · Score: 4, Informative

    Everyone else may have already read this, but this Q&A about Open Games is probably the most clueful thing I've read in weeks - including the open and honest justification for the creation of OG. Ver well written, credit where due, and exhibits an openness that I appreciate.

    Look at it here

  5. Re:Waaahhh... by rknop · · Score: 3, Informative

    Anyway, I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that you have to pay for all of the GURPS character creators, as SJ Games certainly won't let you give thier data away for free.

    This is demonstrably false:

    http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/utilities/

    It can't be "free" in the "libre" sense, no. But from the way you state it ("have to pay") it's very clear that you are talking about "free as in beer", and the very links on SJGames' own site prove that you're incorrect about what they'll let you do.

    -Rob

  6. If you have the books... by More+Karma+Than+God · · Score: 3, Informative

    And the software is open source why can't you just create the database by yourself?

    A useful open source "product" would be a data entry program designed to make the creation and editing of these databases easy.

    Sure, it's more work, but you shouldn't have any copyright issues unless you distribute the data you entered.

    --
    Go here to create your own Slashdot dis
    1. Re:If you have the books... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Data entry editors are already part of PCGen. I think only one or two editors are still being finalized before they get released into the wild. Without them, well the files are just a bunch of text data files and they give away the documentation on all the variables, so use your favorite text editor and go nuts.

  7. Re:Why not let users enter their own datafiles? by AlterEd · · Score: 2, Informative

    This has always been the case with PCGen. Before WotC clamped down, you could download all the datafiles that had already been done with the program, after that you were stuck with either converting old datafiles by hand, making entirely new ones by hand, or hoping beyond hope that they would actually make it through the autoconverter intact. Now that they've got a legitimate deal, you can once again download all the datafiles you like and CMP won't get sued into oblivion over copyright issues.

    Besides, the price for the datafiles has been quoted as being between 1 and 5 dollars. Big deal.

    --

    Ed Chauvin IV
  8. Re:Is this really a surprise? by Saxerman · · Score: 5, Informative
    Hosting files on any popular website is expensive in bandwidth. They're probably just trying to make ends meet.

    These closed source data files were already typed up and hosted on sourceforge before WotC stepped in and put a halt to their distribution. This means fans of the d20 system already did the work to write up the data files using the dead tree books they already paid for. They were then hosting it on a system which WotC had nothing to do with, and didn't have to pay for. Fans were already filling this gap for free.

    The key here, I think, is control. Wizards is afraid that by allowing the guys at PcGen to distribute their IP for free, people would lose interesting in buying the dead tree versions. To try and counter this threat, much of the write ups in the fan created content contained notes such as "As defined on page 231 of the Players Handbook". This compromise wasn't good enough, it seems.

    As another point of interest, Wizards already created and sells their own version of a Character Creator for the d20 system which basically competes directly with the open source PcGen. You can download the demo version for free from their website. As you say, the commercial effort is a lot more professional than PcGen, but PcGen has a lot more features.

    --

    A steaming cup of soykaf would be real wiz right now.

  9. The Rise and Fall of TSR by Jimmy_B · · Score: 2, Informative

    People here are talking about how it's WotC's right to charge for their data, and about the "3.5th ed" of AD&D. But no one has actually brought up the reason why this is important: it's all happened before, and it didn't end well.

    D&D used to be published by a company called TSR (originally Tactical Simulation Rules, then the acronym was dropped). While the company was under the control of Gary Gygax, all was good; but when Gygax left, he was replaced by typical business types. They decided that by publishing new books, they could make more money from their existing players; so, they published an "advanced" version, AD&D, which would live alongside D&D. Some time after that, they published a 2nd edition AD&D and discontinued both D&D and AD&D. The new editions were improvements, but people weren't happy with re-purchasing and re-learning the same things repeatedly.

    Somewhere along the line, someone at TSR found out about the World Wide Web, and they weren't happy with what they found: TSR's copyrighted material, even complete texts, on personal web pages. They decided to crack down, but they came for not only infringing sites, but also legitimate fan sites. They made a public statement explaining what fan sites could and couldn't use. They made two grave mistakes; first, they tried to claim ownership over the term "hit points", by then already used universally in nearly every RPG around, and proposed a lousy substitute. Second, they said that fan sites could use monsters which come from mythology (their example: a Hydra), but not ones which are creations of TSR (Drow elves). Problem was, an edition of Webster's Unabridged Dictionary published several years before D&D had an entry under "drow", which described TSR's drow elves perfectly.

    At the same time, TSR was milking the market for all it was worth. They published "2.5th Ed." of AD&D, which was 2nd Ed. in a slightly different presentation (more pictures), and they published dozens and dozens of unnecessary, low-quality, repetitive and inconsistent rulebooks. In short, they made a mess of 2nd edition AD&D, and earned themselves a dismal reputation as "T$R". The backlash killed them, and TSR was bought out by Wizards of the Coast.

    Third edition was a symbolic fresh start; it discarded the mess of rulebooks created in 2nd edition, simplified things, and used the D20 license to show that, unlike TSR, WotC was committed to openness. Does a 3.5th edition and stopping one copyright infringement mean that WotC is reverting into TSR? Of course not; but it's a step in that direction, and could become the start of something more.

    1. Re:The Rise and Fall of TSR by CapeBretonBarbarian · · Score: 2, Informative

      D&D used to be published by a company called TSR (originally Tactical Simulation Rules, then the acronym was dropped). While the company was under the control of Gary Gygax, all was good; but when Gygax left, he was replaced by typical business types. They decided that by publishing new books, they could make more money from their existing players; so, they published an "advanced" version, AD&D, which would live alongside D&D. Some time after that, they published a 2nd edition AD&D and discontinued both D&D and AD&D. The new editions were improvements, but people weren't happy with re-purchasing and re-learning the same things repeatedly.

      This isn't correct at all. Gary Gygax oversaw the creation of AD&D. Prior to AD&D, D&D was a more free wielding system with lots of folks creating and adding stuff and no one really worrying all that much about Intellectual Property. If you were gaming at the time (I take it you were not) you would have remembered that Gygax increasingly started to assert IP rights insisting that the only official AD&D products were written by him and that the reader shouldn't be fooled by knock-offs.

      While things certainly did take a turn for the worse in a number of ways after Gygax left, the seeds you speak of were sown by Gygax and company.

      I don't know why so many folks who were not gaming through the late 70s and 80s like to speak like experts on something they are quite clueless about.

      At the same time, TSR was milking the market for all it was worth. They published "2.5th Ed." of AD&D, which was 2nd Ed. in a slightly different presentation (more pictures), and they published dozens and dozens of unnecessary, low-quality, repetitive and inconsistent rulebooks. In short, they made a mess of 2nd edition AD&D, and earned themselves a dismal reputation as "T$R". The backlash killed them, and TSR was bought out by Wizards of the Coast.

      This statement is just an opinion and not really fact. Yes, TSR did repackage the rulebooks for 2nd edition without changing the content, but the improvements to the graphics were eye catching and I know our gaming group bought several copies of the new set - partly so we could all read from the same page if need be, but also because the books were more pleasing to read. But, no one had to buy the new printings; the old books still worked just fine. Complaining about that is like complaining about a new printing of a book with some new artwork on the cover and cosmetic changes to layout. Who cares? No one is forced to buy it.

      Now TSR did publish something that was a real version 2.5. That would be the Combat & Tactics, Skills & Powers and Spells & Magic books. Those were not a cosmetic change at all and radically changed how the game was played. In many ways third edition reminds me of these rules. Third edition sometimes feels like a simpler and better put together version of what they were starting to tinker with in S&P and C&T.

      There's no way you could say that these rules were published just to milk the gaming world. TSR was genuinely starting to move away from 1st and 2nd edition AD&D (which were practically interchangeable for the most part). It was fun to be part of that experiment.

      What I think killed TSR (and Game Designers Workshop and others) was Magic the Gathering and similar games. The old RPG companies weren't quick enough to adjust to the changing demographics of gaming and were blind sided.

      The latter years of TSR were a sort of rennaisance on the creative side with a number of innovative (for TSR) campaign settings and supplements. We haven't seen anything approaching that yet for 3E.

      I'll certainly give you that the d20 and OGL concept are great, and that the 3E mechanism is better than the older AD&D mechanism, but I'm still waiting for the cool settings like Planescape or Dark Sun. Seems that under WoTC the settings have reverted back to quasi-European munchkinism.

  10. Check the whole facts. by InThane · · Score: 3, Informative

    According to Wizards of the Coast, all of the modifications made from 3.0 to 3.5 will be released, free of charge, as part of the Standard Reference Document. You can use those as a template for "upgrading" your campaign, if you want.

    Me? I'm sticking with my 3.0 books, and I'll borrow from what I like in 3.5, but I'm not shelling out the money. Quit whining! Sheesh, it's like you think you deserve free copies of the new books, or something...

    --
    InThane
  11. My My My... Busy aren't we all? by Mynex · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ook! (that's monkey for greetings) I see that everyone is having fun bashing away happily at WotC, CMP, and things in general. I just thought I'd stop in and make a target, er, post myself here. ;) Couple things a lot of you seem to be missing... mostly missing are additional facts. So, let me point you to were you can read what's what... then feel free to flame/complain/moan/groan/congradulate/pat on back/yell/scream/holler away. ;) 1st, the main announcement about things is located on our main page at http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com That give an overview of things... more specifics are here: http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/modules.php?op =modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=12 9 okay.. that should give you all the fuel you need to pick your favorite adjective to use! ready, set, flame! ;p *note - I am _VERY_ tongue in cheek and sarcastic, not with intent to annoy anyone (usully. ;p) but for simple humors sake. Ask questions, they're more than welcome, please refrain from personal flames though, that's not needed and unwelcome.

  12. Some Info to Remove Speculation by Kenosti · · Score: 2, Informative

    I see Mynex has already posted on this issue, but I'm goign to psot some extra info that people seemt o be unaware of in regards to various topics brought up.

    * When 3.5 comes out, Wizards will release all the changes as a PDF file (liek they currently do with the Errata and FAQ). It will be a free download form the Wizards website, so you will not have to pay for the changes if you don't want to.

    * PcGen ahs always allowed users to enter their own datafiles - especially easier now with allt he list editors in the latest releases. Thus, you don't have to buy the Wizards IP if you own the books, you can just enter the information yourself. The supporting Documentation inside PCGen is very helpful in this regard.

    * The stuff Code Monkey Publishing will be charging for will only be for the Wizards IP. This means that things left out fot he SRD will be put back in (Mordenkeinen's, Tasha's, Illithid/MindFlayer, etc etc). Not only that, but you'll get full descriptions of skills, spells, feats, etc. Or you could do your own work and flesh out the SRD files that come with PCGen using the list editors.

    * Code Monkey Publishing has axcquired the rights to fix and support Wizard's own Character Generator E-Tools, which, by many reports, is severely broken and has not been fixed sice it was released.

    * Be aware that E-Tools only runs on Windows (as far as I know, unless you use a Windows Emulator on othe rplatforms), whislt PCGen, running in Java, runs on many platforms. So to my mind, this is a bonus, not hindrance to PCGen.

    Well, that's all I have to say.

    Ignore me, flame me, or whatever, but these are the facts, as they stand.

    Kenosti.