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Section-by-Section Analysis of PATRIOT II

Posted by michael on from the last-refuge-of-scoundrels dept.

SlappyCat writes "The ACLU has a Section-by-Section Analysis of Justice Department draft 'Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003', also known as 'PATRIOT Act II'. This is scary stuff if it gets passed."

12 of 37 comments (clear)

  1. Change of metaphors by Katravax · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think we're moving as a nation from "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" to "the nail that sticks out gets pounded down". Some would argue we've always been like that. I'm just confused. Was I that thick as a kid, a teenager, and in my twenties to beleive that the USA stood for freedom and liberty? Or was it that way and now it's all changing?

    Secret arrests? Secret searches? Secret trials? These were horror stories held up to me in grade school to make me thankful I didn't live in the USSR. And now my elected representatives are even considering doing that? The definition of who this can be done to is so arbitrarily broad that I have to worry that even posting a "dissenting" view like this could get me on a list somewhere. Am I missing something? Is this a dream?

    1. Re:Change of metaphors by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Was I that thick as a kid, a teenager, and in my twenties to beleive that the USA stood for freedom and liberty? Or was it that way and now it's all changing?

      No you were just taken in by the propaganda which is taught in our schools today. Don't be ashamed, we all fell for it, it has been spewed at us since we were very young, and we are only now seeing the evidence to counteract the years of brain-washing. For a similar example, look at the children who were put through the Hitler's Youth programs. They were fanatical followers of Hitler, and would even turn their own parents over to the Gastapo. However, in time, most of them were able to be shown exactly how bad Hitler really was.
      While I won't say that the US government is anywhere near the level the Nazi's, it does employ the same tactics to indoctrinate the youth. Consider for a moment the sceans, which I know I was shown in school, perhaps you were too, of the children of Germany marching around the room, holding a Nazi flag and shouting "Heil Hitler". And we were taught that this was one of the bad things that Hitler did. It was an exercise to re-enforce patriotism and loyalty to a govenment. Now compare that to children saying the "Pledge of Allegience" every morning. Its really not that different, it still a method for re-enforcing patriotism and loyalty. But it OK because its for the USA, and not Hitler. Don't blame yourself for not knowing, you were brain-washed from birth to belive that the US is better than everywhere else, its good to see that you are now questioning that assertion.

      Secret arrests? Secret searches? Secret trials? These were horror stories held up to me in grade school to make me thankful I didn't live in the USSR. And now my elected representatives are even considering doing that? The definition of who this can be done to is so arbitrarily broad that I have to worry that even posting a "dissenting" view like this could get me on a list somewhere. Am I missing something? Is this a dream?

      Nope, our government is just as bad as any other, they just used to hide it better. Go hit Google and search for things such as "Japanesse Concentraion Camps" (hint: they were in the US). Look for some of the programs the military has been allowed to do, such as implanting civilians with radioactive materials without the knowledge of the subject. Look at how US citizens who believed in communism were treated in the 50's. Sure, the government may apologize later, but its usually upwards of 50 years later, and under threat of a huge public backlash. And certainly far too late to make a differnce in the lives they have destroyed. I'm sorry if I am the first one to tell you this, but the US govenment is not as nice as they have trained you to believe. You don't have to go very far back in history to see examples of it trampling the rights of its own people.
      This is one of the reasons the Second Amedment was put in place. Its not for hunting, that is just a straw man, which is put in place to be knocked down. If you research the arguments, put forth by the authors of the Constitution, for that right to be in there, they usually state that it is intended such that a militia, of all the abled bodied males, will be able to rise up should the government become tryanical.
      Do I think we are at that point yet? No, that we are able to have this discusion in a public forum is proof enough that the govenment has not become such a tyrany. Though I do think that any sort of secret arrests, searches and trials are a step towards that. Add to that the idea that somone can be stripped of citizen ship, and now we start moving towards a tyrany.
      Mind you, this is all my own opinion, don't take it as fact, even the things I put forth as facts, go look them up and prove it to yourself.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    2. Re:Change of metaphors by Dr+Caleb · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Secret arrests? Secret searches? Secret trials?

      The US governemnt is already doing some of these things. Back in October they deported a Canadian Citizen travelling from Tunisia, where he was vacationing, back home to Montreal.

      During his stop over in New York, they discovered he was born in Syria, so they arrested him, and put him on a plane to Syria (despite being a Canadian Citizen). Since the law in Syria requires men over 18 to perform military service (he left when he was still pre-teen), Syrian Police locked him up for not performing his duty. He's been there ever since.

      Nice, eh!

      I wonder what kind of backlash would happen if something similar happened to an American Citizen while travelling through Canada. Perhaps then the American people will awake.

      Is this a dream?

      No, dubiously, this is reality.

      --
      "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
  2. Street Judges next by Yokaze · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Great idea... abolishing a lot of juidical process. This will make it much more easier to bring those terrorists to justice.

    Don't know why the western civilisation came up with such a cumbersome process in the last 4 centuries (with some regional and temporal exceptions)

    I like especially Section 501. Reminds me somehow of
    "All Animals are equal, but some Animals are more equal than others"
    Or in this case:
    All Americans are equal, but some Americans are less equal than others

    Greetings, Mr. McCarthy, um.. sorry, Mr. Ashcroft.

    --
    "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
  3. United States of Apathy? by Syowr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow...

    After reading that breakdown I`m honestly scared for what the U.S. is becoming. Not just from the fact that this abomination is even being considered, but also the fact that apparently no one in that country cares...

    This low post volume speaks pretty loudly IMO.

  4. Where this sits... by valkraider · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Shouldn't this make the front page? We put blather on the front page about scented cloth... (I'll show you scented cloth buddy...)

  5. Write to Congress? by rwoodford · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I started writing to my congressmen...but I started to think 'What if this goes through. Will I then be labeled a terrorist and deported for my opposition to this bill?' Maybe I'm getting too paranoid...gotta stop reading /.

  6. Full Text of the Act by KalenDarrie · · Score: 3, Informative

    I found this in a few moments. Hopefully it's the right and proper draft. ;)

    Full Text of Patriot Act II

    --
    Kalen D'arrie
  7. Third LInk: Several more Resources by KalenDarrie · · Score: 2, Informative

    Don't mind me, just seeding more information for the people.

    One more source of full text, two more analyses and a bevvy of news links.

    Electronic Privacy Information Center Page on Patriot II

    --
    Kalen D'arrie
  8. Re:Slippery Slope! by Frobnicator · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Slippery slope can be either a fallacy or a legitimate argument. See this place for the description.

    It is one thing to say "because they took away liberty X, they will eventually take away liberty Y". It is quite another to say "Observe that liberties A,B,C, and D, have been taken, we should be concerned that it will continue for liberties E, F and G."

    The first is a slippery-slope fallacy (asserting a possibility as a fact), the second is a legitimate argument for policy based on historical evidence and trends.

    Frob.

    --
    //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
  9. Re:Land of the free? by Frobnicator · · Score: 2, Interesting
    How did the parent get moded as insightful?
    we will have to come up with a new name, because democracy will definitely NOT fit!
    The US isn't a democracy, it's a democratic republic. Democratic = "benefitting the common pepole", republic = "A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them."
    like this makes me wonder why I stay in the US. ... every day I spend under the Bush administration.
    You enjoy many freedoms in the US. You are free to leave the country. You are free to attempt to get citizenship in another country. You are free to vote for anybody you see fit for government officers, including yourself.

    I often wish that people like you WOULD move out of the US, if for no other reason than to find out what like is like outside your little shell.

    Sincerely, another US citizen.

    Frob.

    --
    //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
  10. PublicIntegrity.org by itomato · · Score: 3, Informative

    PublicIntegrity has a review of the PATRIOT Act II, as well as the full text.

    http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp ?R eportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0