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The Internship That Students Drool Over
selan writes "The Baltimore Sun has a feature on Microsoft's internship program and why it is so popular with college students. Not only are interns paid, but they also receive the same perks as other Microsoft employees. At the end of the summer they are treated to a catered barbecue at Bill Gates's house and have a good shot at a full time job after graduation. You do not know the power of the Dark Side."
...I don't see the problem. If it's secure paid work in these times, who cares? Hell, i'd do it.
"Oh no, a company is going to great lengths to make itself appear enticing to prospective employees".
Let me break it to you: These are hard times we are living in. A job is just a job. You earn your shit from 9-5 and get out of there, it's what you do to pay the bills so that you don't sit at home twiddling your knob all day bored out of your skull, so that you can afford a roof, to eat, and buy funky cool things.
Feel that power? That's mah MOUSING FINGER
Imagine that... a well paid internship with one of the world's largest companies, lots of perks, a pretty good chance of a permanent position with said megacorp, great perks, AND a catered lunch?
Yeah, I wouldn't take that position. That would be fucking stupid.
-- Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.
You know its not a bad job to work at Micro$oft, they are big and they are the leader on the desktop and has been so for a long time. I wouldnt myself like the idea to be working for them, but they got alot of brigt people, and I bet it can be real fun to work with those people. I do prefere that I can use a Linux desktop and program Java running on Unix boxes.. But thats maybe not for everyone.
The original article really doesn't tell us a lot that we don't already know. It seems to be there to plug Microsoft and their internship program.
On the other hand, an interesting point is bought up about smaller companies not being able to afford internships in periods of economic downturn. Does this mean that Microsoft, who are still recruiting strongly as ever, have an even better chance of picking up the cream of the crop? Of course... It makes perfect business sense, doesn't it? What I'd like to hear about are other, smaller companies and their recruiting schemes.
"They pay interns very well, but they are expected to pull 55+ work weeks, and have no weekends. "
I can't think of a better way to completely alienate regular employees. They must be worried sick, trying to keep their jobs, with 'cheap' competition at hand. This prbably also explains the quality of MS code.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
If you can get past the stigma of working for the Dark Side
:-)
This "Stigma" you speak of is only within the "geek" community. You tell everyone at your high school reunion "I'm a vice president at Microsoft" you'll be the envy of everyone. The 5 kids from the computer club might shun you, but no one else will.
I've got a stack of about 40 rejections sitting in my drawer right now, they are in response to about 160 resumes I've sent out in the last 5 weeks alone. An internship with Microsoft would be a great opportunity, regardless of the stigma. At this point I'm just looking for the internship, regardless of where and who.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
This prbably also explains the quality of MS code.
I dunno. MS stuff may have some seriously bad design flaws dotted around, but can you think of any proprietry commercial software that's any better? Except for safety critical stuff, there's a hell of a lot of bad code out there. MS is only noticed as much because they produce so much of it.
"You do not know the power of the Dark Side".
Grow up, child! Even if it was sarcastic or in a wicked way ment to be 'funny', it's too pathetic for words. Microsoft is like any other company which wants to make money. Employees who work at Microsoft, do that because they get paid for what they do there, like people at Sun or IBM (or Red Hat).
Just because MS mistreats some of its customers, doesn't mean the individual employee there is a bad person, or worse: stupid, because he felt for the 'power of the dark side'. For once, keep marketingpoop and real life separated.
You should read "Proudly serving my corporate masters" by Adam Barr ( I believe he even is a slashdotter). Then you will understand that interns at Microsoft are not picked up at MacDonalds, but recruited at the finest universities and should pass a tough selection program. No wonder as a company they are treated as normal human beings: the best people know they are the best and will only work for... the best, ('best' can be different for a lot of people) so Microsoft will do everything they can to get them on board (like IBM, Sun and other companies will do too).
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
The everyday perks were incredible, free drinks, 1/2 subsidized lunch room, laptop, iPAQ, yearly budget to purchase anything you want (that will help the company)... It was really amazing.
It works like this:
1) get graduates straight out of universtiy.
2) condition them to believe working extremely long hours and weekends is "normal".
3) condition them to believe that if you're a real professional then your work is more important than socialising with your friends and spending time with your family.
4) pay them relatively low salaries, but promise big ones in the future.
5) give them free pop, sweeties and toys.
6) See how far you can push the suckers!
When you are older and wiser, believe me you will look back on your free drinks and 1/2 subsidized lunch room and realise how gullible you were when you were younger...
Unfortunately, the real world is not such a utopia. The real world is what you get when the market economy actually works, as opposed to the computer industry, where it's been warped and twisted into a smoking pile of slag.
Open source and free software are about sharing the (intellectual) wealth around, making it available to anybody, not concentrating it in one place. It's a people thing.
This article is the modern day equivalent of stories of how rich and opulent the Kings palaces are, how his staff and manservants live in stunning surroundings and how much they love the King for it. Interesting reading, and it certainly sounds like a cool place to work, but not sadly reflective of anything that can be really recreated while we use our current economic system.
Oh BTW, I might as well remind you that some say it's all built on a house of cards. Is it true? I don't know. Make up your own mind.
And ten years later at the next high school reunion, everyone will feel sorry for you since and your class mates (while poorer) had time to live their life (have family, friends, and kids) while you worked all your free time away at Microsoft.
You may be rich and successful, but at what price?
You tell everyone at your high school reunion "I'm a vice president at Microsoft" you'll be the envy of everyone.
Hell, you tell everyone "I'm a computer programmer" and the hot chicks will still not speak to you. You tell them "I'm a computer programmer at Microsoft", they probably won't be able to keep their hands off you. The difference in popular opinion is roughly that between garbage collecter and movie star. (I get people asking me why I didn't go to work for Microsoft all the time, usually because they know nothing about my job except I work with computers.)
You don't think someone can balance a great career AND a great social/family life at the same time?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Do you feel they owe you something? If the industry collapsed, why should you not feel the effects? What is your rationale for boycotting them?
When things get tight, I am sure those perks will be the first to go. During the big economic boom, the company I work for was constantly trying to find interesting perks to offer us, but now that things aren't going as well, they have stopped looking for new perks and have taken away some of the ones they added.
I've got a mind like a steel trap - it's got an animal's foot stuck in it.
So if it's such a great place to work, and they're woo'ing all of the best intern material, WHY do they continue to produce such crap code?!?
Do they really or is it just a urban myth?
People used to complain about how buggy IE was, but when finally Netscape's code was released for Mozilla turned out it was no better. So much so that Mozilla had to discard Netscape's code.
Another example, in 1994 I was routinely using a Mac, and it would crash ever one or two hours (cooperative multitasking anyone?). Back then you could read anywhere how bad an unstable Win 3.1 was, but you'd never hear a peep from the Apple camp.
You see, the real world (ie - outside of Mom's basement) works much, much differently than you think. [..] Wake up now before it's too late.
Believe me, I left my mom's basement a long time ago. I'm actually Managing Director (CEO in American jargon) of a small IT company. Myself and my staff get paid very well. There's little stress here (yes, I spend some of my day posting on Slashdot!) And nobody works weekends and rarely evenings. And we have a great relationship with all of our clients.
I started my career working for a company like Microsoft. I very quickly realised that it was a con, and most people working there were like sheep. I got out, and it was the best thing I've ever done.
And you want me to wake up?
To a poor college student, any multi-millionaire is going to look pretty damned frivilous with his money.
But those "older guys" are probably 35 years old, and just realized:
- because of the options they picked up at microsoft, they could easily spend $1,000 a day, every day, for the rest of their lives, and still have a big pile left over when they die,
- geek girls are cute,
- they never did get married, and
- there are much worse ways of spending a $1,000.00 of your daily "play money" than trying to impress a geek girl
I'm just saying that if I was in that position (single, with several million dollars cash in the bank) I'd probably be hitting on geek girls all the time too.Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
9.One-year non-compete\non-solicitation clause.
One year non-compete with MS? Since MS is involved in just about everything, wouldn't this prevent working for most companies in the computer industry?
Guess who won't ever work for On, or buy any of their parts unless I absolutely have to...
Because the economy was bad and they didn't hire you, you're spiteful? Bizarre how people think they're owed things in life. But anyway...
There _used_ to be demand for people in the tech industry, hence the paid internships. But if you've tried to get a job lately, you'll know the demand is pretty low at the moment. The only effect this has really had on internships is that there are less available. Maybe because the companies haven't caught on that free intern labor is better than no paid intern labor. Or maybe because the companies know this, but just realize that nobody thats smart enough to do the job will work for free.
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
I keep finding that I write a piece of code, and although it works, it would be so much nicer to have done it differently. Trouble is, it works. Company resources (i.e. me) are so much better spent fixing things that don't work at all.
My own code, I get to redo as many times as I want. This does tend to make it better, but it takes longer to produce. The same no doubt applies to open source. There's no real problem caused if people do reinvent the wheel.
The point is that there are so many more people using Microsoft software than anything else that it is natural to have so many complaints. If that garbage that Netscape put out for years had approached hundreds of millions of users, geeks might have torched the Mountain View campus for all the effing bugs.
You also are dealing with a bunch of stupid zero-sum idiots who think that a dollar that Gates has, is a dollar that they dont. There is crappy code everywhere, not just at Microsoft.
Seems to me that your view of MS employees is a bit distorted. Yes, a lot of them have a lot of money, but I don't think money of them have millions upon millions of dollars, as you're asserting. ($1000 * 365 * 30 ~= 11 million)
Besides, rich or not, you'd still be a dirty old man without the social skills to realize that being a dirty old man isn't a good way to get geek chicks.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
At the same time, from a security standpoint things are as bad as ever. Of all the machines on my network here, the only ones that have ever been compromised are the Windows boxes.
I agree that this is the case. Yet, a sensible explanation of why this is so is that more people write Windows exploits than Unix. Hence more flaws are found. The old adage of OSS is: debugging is fungible. Well so is cracking. Let's call that Alomex Law "cracking is fungible", as a consequence the most popular platform will be the most cracked. In fact as Linux continues to gain ground we'll see an increase in exploits (side note: about a year ago all our Red Hat boxes were cracked here).
In simple terms, if my goal as evil-cracker is to maximize disruption why would I spend hours pouring BeOS code that would give me access to four computers, when I can build upon readily available cracking utilities that can give me access to 90% of the world's computers?
You're right.
So why, then, does he owe On Semiconductors anything?
He owes them nothing, not even his purchasing dollars.
No one can force him to buy their stuff.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I don't know why people are slamming college students that are interns at Microsoft.
First off, any job in this economy is a good job. The dot com boom is over and so are the 100K jobs where a pulse was the only requirement.
Second, when you have a big company like MS on your resume, the job market opens up a lot more, even in bad times. I worked at the "Evil Northwest Book, CD's and More company" and don't regret it one bit. After leaving that company I had a job in 6 weeks that paid 15K more a year. Having that those kinds of companies on the resume helps a lot. You can call me a whore, but you'll do it from the unemployment office.
Three, MS treats it employees well. I know of very few companies that offer all of the benefts and salary that MS offers. When it comes down to it, work is only about three things; Pay, Benefits, and Intresting work. MS appears to provide all three.
Linux O Muerte!
In case you read replies, I should warn you not to take them personally.
The vast majority of the people here read a great comment, nod or shake their heads, and carry on without replying. I was about to do the same, until I read some of the other replies you got... Don't take the anonymous replies from a few cruel jerks with too much time on their hands as opinions representative of the rest of the people on the site. Your comment was a great one, and at least the moderators showed their appreciation.
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
Microsoft has always been one of the Fortune top rated copmanies to work for. Up there with Adobe, WalMart, Wegmans, and Pfizer.
(granted they did have an issue with being sued by the part time people because those people apparently felt that the contract that they agreed to and signed... was unfair - not sure what ever came of that - perhaps with the downturn in the economy those people realized that they were lucky for their jobs and shut the hell up)
I have 10 friends that I went to college with that interviewed with Microsoft, and now 5 of them work there (they all got offers, 3 of them didn't want to move, one of them opted for grad school, and the last thought he had a chance at Apple or something... he didn't last I heard). (I can remember one of the guys wore Tevas, a shirt he had painted in that had holes in it, and ragged cut offs to his Microsoft interview, while some others debated on suits or not - he wanted to make sure that they were only going by his brain... he got the offer... and turned it down to go to grad school)
The guys that work there love it. And in the tech world (I guess only outside of slashdot), seeing that you worked at Microsft actually has some tech cred to it - I know of 3 guys that I went to school with that went on to start their own companies and the MS name on their cv helped get their funding.
I know a guy that works in their computer game department, and I know a guy that works in their XBox game department (I think it is slightly funny that they are even different departments). They each think it is the coolest job on the planet, and I'm not sure I blame them.
I find it really amusing that "everyone" here thinks MS is so evil, when in reality, they are one of the best companies to work for - and perhaps are even doing some things right - as much as it hurts the people here to think.
It is human nature to strive to be at the top, and to some extent, to resent those that sit at the top. Were Apple or Linux to rise up and dethrone the current MS position, the same people here would start griping about the exact same issues that MS is going through because they are side effects of beinga successful company.
and in true slashdot mentality, I'm sure this will get modded troll
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
You don't think someone can balance a great career AND a great social/family life at the same time?
You have 144 hours a week, no more, no less. The more hours you spend at work, the less you spend with friends and family. You can't have a great family life if it consists of kissing your kids before you run out the door in the morning and gazing at them after they've gone to sleep at night.
I grew up in Seattle and actually started working for Microsoft my Junior/Senior year of high school through their HS program. I then worked for the company for the three summers of my college years at the UW. All told I did 5 internships in 3 different divisions. In the end I decided not to work for Microsoft, opting for a smaller and highly profitable company in downtown Seattle.
:-)
I did however really enjoy my time at MS. It's a fun intern program. Microsoft knows how to party and for a college person it's an ideal situation.
However I concluded that my internships really didn't help me in the end. Also because I had been at the company so long Microsoft assumed I was garunteed to work for them after graduation. When I interviewed for FT my senior year recruiting did not listen to my desires. I was lied to about position availability and after battling with them for some time about various things when I showed up I was interviewing for a position in a group I had specifically requested not to work in. This is not unexpected though. If you give someone the perception that they have control over you they will often times abuse it.
Fortunatly I am happier now and am being given a level of responsibility MS would have never given me.
Everything you mentioned, happened to me.
Now, after 13 years at Microsoft I am 40 and retired. I am older, wiser and RICHER than I was then, and I busted my ass to get here.
I look back on those free drinks and subsidized lunch room with great gratitude, because until I vested, that was where I got most of my meals. I got most of my exercise on the soccer field and at the Pro Club. I got most of my friendships and sexual conquests from Buildings 9 through 22.
Now, I get to do whatever the hell I want to do, like sit here in my pj's at almost 10 in the morning and look down at all the poor souls waiting to get across the 520 while I can hop in my SeaRay when ever I need to cross the lake.
It was worth every hard, long, fucked up minute I spent on campus because the rest of my days belong to me.
Well, I guess you and me have a different view of the world.
You see, I know how to enjoy myself without needing to be excessively rich. I have lots of great friends who I see very regularly, I live within a ten minute walk of the beach, I go hiking and biking most weekends. I don't work late or weekends. I often get up at 10am on weekdays, because I'm my own boss. And I don't need to be a millionaire to do any of that.
Personally I would not sacrifice thirteen years of the prime of my life for the just for the sake of money. If you think that makes me an idiot, so be it.
As a percentage, though, there are a lot more competent women out there than blokes - I have been asked stupid questions by loads more guys than gals, even when you take the smaller number of gals into account.
If you're going to flame, at least have the decency to log in, asshole...
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
"I got boring projects which I found it difficult to get motivated for, and which focused more on exactly the things in which I had little experience, rather than on one of my strengths. And I got seriously slammed when I made mistakes stemming from my lack of experience, thus further reducing my motivation. "
Instead of constantly playing to your strengths, I'd expect any mentor worth of the title to try to shore up your weaknesses.
It sounds like you did poorly on your assignment and, rather than looking to improve your skills, felt bad about it and wallowed in self pity.
Having more women around probably wouldn't have done anything to help that. If you're not willing to do things to improve your weaknesses (whatever they are) yet expect constant praise and adoration, don't be surprised when people don't want to work with you.
A Human Right
"m$ is evil and the people who work there are ignorant whores" and "everything m$ does is stolen from someone else" are among the beatiful pieces of FUD spread by the fine folks who advocate open source/free software. If your enemy looks stupid, it always makes you look good. Or at least that's how the theory goes, I guess.
But do share, if you obviously know so much about how Microsoft works on the inside. You must be a fountain of knowledge waiting to spring on the unsuspecting and undeserving Slashdot crowd. Tell us "how it is".
It's not a loophole, it's called a voluntary relationship. The intern gets experience that they can put onto a resume (thus raising their pay options for all those ads that say "salary DOE"), and the company gets a) free work and b) a likely job candidate that they don't have to train for their specific environment. It's an extension of what used to be referred to as an apprenticeship.
If you live in a fucked up place like Oregon, where the minimum wage is nearly the highest in the USA, it's one of the only ways to get entry-level experience. Companies won't pay someone with zero experience $7/hr unless they absolutely have to.
Since the tone of your post seems to imply that you believe not paying interns is a shady manipulation of law, consider that requiring interns be paid (which is a violation of the right to contract freely, btw) would simply remove many of the opportunities that entry-level workers have to gain experience, and thus a higher-paying entry job. Some people still understand that sometimes advancement requires investment and sacrifice, but those people tend not to be in the mainstream of society.