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Music Companies Bemoan New High-Cap Portables

An anonymous reader writes "New Scientist reports: 'The music industry this week condemned the launch of two recording systems that will let people copy between 30 and 100 hours of music onto a single disc.'" The Sony system is supposed to use "ultra-efficient data compression system used in MiniDiscs" to fit "30 hours of MP3 music" on a CD-R. (I thought MD used ATRAC rather than MP3, and that ATRAC's standard bitrate was 285.3 Kbps -- can some MD gurus bring us up to speed?) Philips' system skips CDs, and instead uses a DVD burner, with the resulting disks playable in a to-be-released portable player. I wonder what kind of DRM features the companies will use to cripple each system.

11 of 339 comments (clear)

  1. ATRAC3 by bigethespe · · Score: 5, Informative

    Minidiscs do use Atrac3 but the newer MD players have adjusted the atrac encoding format (called MDLP) to allow for longer play times with marginal quality losses. try minidisco for a great resource and more info.

    1. Re:ATRAC3 by JebusIsLord · · Score: 4, Informative

      I disagree about MP3 being a "not hugely high quality codec".

      MP3s encoded at 128kbps CBR (constant bit rate) using an encoder such as Xing WILL result in poor-quality mp3s, easily discernible by the averagle listen using poor quality equipment. However, an mp3 encoded using a recent version of LAME (i recommend 3.90.2) and "--alt-preset standard" will find that the resulting files are virtually indistinguishable from the source CDs (even to audiophiles), at an average bitrate of around 192kbps. This is superiour compression to ATRAC, and the LAME psychoacoustic model is significantly better tuned IMHO.

      For more information on ALL lossy and lossless codecs by people who really know their stuff, check out the message boards at Hydrogen Audio.

      --
      Jeremy
    2. Re:ATRAC3 by be-fan · · Score: 4, Informative

      virtually indistinguishable from the source CDs (even to audiophiles), at an average bitrate of around 192kbps
      >>>>>>>>
      I don't know about that. With my Sony D66's (not quite audiophile quality, but very nice) I can hear a significant difference between a 192 kbps MP3 and the CD. At 256 kbps, I really have to be looking for it, so that's what I encode at. Through my speakers (Klipsch 4.1's, again not audiophile quality, but nice as far as PC speakers go) I can't really tell the difference at 192 kbps unless it's a type of song that MP3 just doesn't encode well. I think the main thing here is that: a) headphones will reveal quality differences much more than comparably priced speakers, and b) PC audio systems suck enough that a good pair of speakers aren't the bottleneck when comparing compression standards. If you go to a pair of really accurate headphones (like the in-ear ER-4's) even non-audiophiles will hear the difference. And at less than $300, it's not like we're talking about some $5000 home theater system here.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  2. MDLP by DoctorPhish · · Score: 4, Informative

    MDLP recorders use high-density recording to record 2-4x more data on an MD, but it seems unlikely they can adapt something like that to CD-Rs...so you can pretty much rule that out unless they've managed to shoehorn some funky blue-laser to write extra data to existing CD-R media (or they're just lowering the bit-rate and blowing smoke out their asses)

    1. Re:MDLP by megabeck42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      umm, no, the mdlp is atrac3, which is an atrac frame that encodes silence (zero's) followed by a hidden atrac3 frame which has the newer encoding algorithm. MD's algorithm is similar to MP3's (variable allocation of bits to encode the output of a few simultaneous DFT's into a constant bitrate stream - the most important features of the wave are encoded). This way, ATRAC3 discs will play as silence on non ATRAC3 compatible devices. The new NetMD recorders which attach via USB have the computer do the mp3->atrac3 transcoding process, then download the atrac3 stream. See the OpenMD project which is reverse engineering the NetMD usb protocol.

      However, I'd like to clarify that the md and mdlp units use the same media, with the same mechanical recording system - the change is in the bitstream and the playing software.

      I would suspect that sony is probably placing ATRAC3 on a CD and playing that. Simply an issue of software which is generally cheaper to develop than hardware.

      --
      fnord.
  3. Sony's encoding by subsonic · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm a big user of minidiscs, however I'm not a profesed "guru", but here's what I understand of ATRAC and MD:

    Sony is currently using ATRAC3. It is capable of encoding up to 320 minutes of stereo audio at a bitrate of 36kbps.
    To quote from minidisc.org: "[ATRAC3]differs substantially from the original, existing ATRAC system, having twice the transform window size (1024 samples [23.2ms], vs. 512 samples [11.6ms]), encoding tone components separately from other spectra, splitting the input signal into 4 bands instead of 3, and using Huffman coding on the final bit stream to squeeze out redundancy." However, Sony has probably gone to a new version of ATRAC3 for this new application of writing to CDs.
    Sony has basically scrapped the idea of using minidiscs as a data storage medium, at least to the genral public. However, Sony did release a digital camera that wrote to MDdata discs, and there are some professional recorders that record multitrack MD data discs. It is interesting that they're only now starting to apply ATRAC technology outside of the MD format.

    For more info on MD and ATRAC encoding, i reccomend Minidisc.org

  4. OpenMG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sony's unit will probably use OpenMG for DRM, just like the NetMD enabled MD units do. What this essentially means is that the tracks on the disc will be encrypted in a way that only allows them to play on YOUR player, and "uploading" tracks will only be possible to the desktop machine that they originated on, and then only if there's still an encrypted backup of the track stored on the hard drive there. Even with that much restriction, the NetMD MD players limit the number of times any particular track may be downloaded onto a disc.

    Expect as least that much hassle with the Sony unit. Do a search for "OpenMG" for the full horror story.

    -P.

  5. Re:so.... by nfg05 · · Score: 4, Informative
    2) buy their inevitably propriatary media
    Here's what the article says about this:
    Philips's system uses a computer DVD recorder to save at least 100 hours of MP3 music on a blank DVD, which will play on a new portable DVD player.
    So, I'm not really sure what led you to believe that. Seems to me like it would make more sense and more people would adopt it if they let people use the blank DVD media (and recorders) that they already have (or will purchase because they can be used for other things as well).
  6. Re:I Must Be Missing Something by SirDaShadow · · Score: 3, Informative

    which I don't know of any compression format which provides decent audio quality at that rate. Even the claims of 100 hours of music on a DVD (assuming a standard single layer 4.7GB recordable DVD) would only allow for 110kbps which is getting kind of low. Two words: Ogg Vorbis. VERY good quality as low as 45kbps, better than mp3 at 110kbps.

  7. Portable + MP3 DVDs = Sony MPDAP20U (no DRM) by sbot5000 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Phillips' MP3/DVD portable may be yet to be released but the Sony MPDAP20U has already been out for a couple of months. It seems like the Holy Grail of Portables: 24X/10X/24X CD-RW, 8X DVD-ROM (plays MP3/DVDs), USB 2.0, LCD remote, no DRM, and oh yeah, it has a Memory Stick slot, too. It's a little spendy at $299. Page 33 of the User Guide confirms that MP3 on DVD-R/RW is a go (and via Memory Stick as well). Here's a review.

  8. Re:Sony is Schizophrenic by Blondie-Wan · · Score: 4, Informative
    I was amazed at the same thing. Of course, if one thinks about it, it's possible he may be more insightful than anyone realizes...

    As Slashdotters have been saying for a while now, technological advancements like MP3, etc. will eventually force the music labels to change their business models, no matter how hard they kick and scream. They may win concessions that will piss off people like those here, but at some point they simply will not be able to sell nearly as many CDs at the same high prices they've been pushing, no matter what. Now, here are Sony and Philips, who not only sell creative works, but also sell the hardware needed to play the media. While their music publishing arms might suffer, the overall conglomerates still stand to stay in business even if music sales plummet to zero, since they'll still sell the hardware needed to play it. Suppose they decide to just write off the already-dwindling gravy train from publishing, and instead go all out on the hardware, seeing it as where the real money either already lies or eventually will?

    Of course, somebody will figure out a way to make money from the music itself (even if it can no longer generate the kinds of revenues it has in the past). Even so, tech changes should ultimately transform the business; tech changes have always signalled changes in business models, and while some will die, others will arise. I just hope the music publishers don't gunk things up too much with the legislation they'll undoubtedly buy in their death throes as they try to stave it off.