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Music Companies Bemoan New High-Cap Portables
An anonymous reader writes "New Scientist reports: 'The music industry this week condemned the launch of two recording systems that will let people copy between 30 and 100 hours of music onto a single disc.'" The Sony system is supposed to use "ultra-efficient data compression system used in MiniDiscs" to fit "30 hours of MP3 music" on a CD-R. (I thought MD used ATRAC rather than MP3, and that ATRAC's standard bitrate was 285.3 Kbps -- can some MD gurus bring us up to speed?) Philips' system skips CDs, and instead uses a DVD burner, with the resulting disks playable in a to-be-released portable player. I wonder what kind of DRM features the companies will use to cripple each system.
so phillips is going to charge me a good deal of money to 1) buy their dvd drive 2) buy their inevitably propriatary media and 3) buy their player all so i can listen to a ton of music on the go? hey, it sounds like an ipod or archos or nomad can accomplish that already.
Minidiscs do use Atrac3 but the newer MD players have adjusted the atrac encoding format (called MDLP) to allow for longer play times with marginal quality losses. try minidisco for a great resource and more info.
MDLP recorders use high-density recording to record 2-4x more data on an MD, but it seems unlikely they can adapt something like that to CD-Rs...so you can pretty much rule that out unless they've managed to shoehorn some funky blue-laser to write extra data to existing CD-R media (or they're just lowering the bit-rate and blowing smoke out their asses)
Temple priests criticize the distibution of paper.
Printers try to squash the invention of the typewriter.
Music companies try to licence tape recorders.
We used to have fire, but the inventor died.
Read: "ultra-efficient data compression system" == ATARC. They're just saying MP3 because it makes people go "OOOOoooo!" and buy it.
My favorite quote from the article speaks for itself:
Mike Tsurumi, a president of Sony Consumer Electronics in Berlin, insists that the move makes sense. "The music companies need to change their business model, he says.
This is an executive within Sony talking, mind you. Fucking amazing. Is there any centralized coordination? Isn't there a CEO of Sony corporate who keeps his divisions in line with the goals (i.e. bottom line interests) of the company as a whole?
The record companies never learn. People want portable music. People want to choose which songs to listen to, instead of carrying an entire CD with 80% crap. So, of course, the industry will try and destroy it. If the record companies were to allow, nay, even financially support this kind of work, they would make much more of that green stuff they so desperately desire. Stop living in the dark ages, damnit...
"Owning a computer is like having your very own TV -- with a built in radio!" - Ed Helms
The music division of Sony has sued the consumer electronics division multiple times. The CE division is no longer allowed to make MP3 devices (like an iPod).
"Owning a computer is like having your very own TV -- with a built in radio!" - Ed Helms
"It's a no-brainer. Anything which lets people enjoy music too much is bad for the industry. If they can just move their songs around anywhere they want, how are we supposed to make money selling multiple CDs? If music is too convenient to transport, we can't sell people whole stacks of different CDs at different locations. They'll be able to listen to all of their music anywhere they are. Can you imagine?
"Further, we believe that people that listen to their music too much are also depriving the artists of revenue. If you listen to an album more than 10 or 12 times, you're morally obligated to go buy another copy. Anything else is stealing food from the mouths of starving artists."
When asked whether artists were deliberately kept starving, the spokesman refused comment.
... they automatically assume it's going to be used to pirate music, and that it somehow makes pirating "easier". What if I want to put all of the MP3's I legitimately downloaded from MP3.com or 1Sound.com or Ampcast.com or Besonic.com or JavaMusic.com or... (see where I'm going with this?). Or even from someplace like like emusic.com where the music is paid for and everyone gets makes out well!
Mike Tsurumi, a president of Sony Consumer Electronics in Berlin, insists that the move makes sense. "The music companies need to change their business model," he says.
Seriously, if the industry hasn't gotten the hint at this point, I doubt it ever will...
Who doesn't like free music?
I'm sure most people have seen this poster...
When you pirate MP3s you're downloading Communism
But I was inspired to update it to reflect the current administration's agenda...
New and improved!
Only, I'm having some difficulty deciding who to put in the background, so I thought I'd let the Slashdot crew help.
Who should star in this new public service announcement?
A) A generic arab
B) Osama bin Laden
C) Saddam Hussein
D) Richard Reid (aka the Shoebomber)
E) Write-in: Please nominate someone
As for the top right symbol, I think that should be up for debate, but to start the ball rolling, might I suggest a flaming jetliner? Or the twin towers?
Thanks, I can't wait to finish it!
PS Please take note, it's a work in progress, so cut me some slack if you notice some minor flaws...
I'm a big user of minidiscs, however I'm not a profesed "guru", but here's what I understand of ATRAC and MD:
Sony is currently using ATRAC3. It is capable of encoding up to 320 minutes of stereo audio at a bitrate of 36kbps.
To quote from minidisc.org: "[ATRAC3]differs substantially from the original, existing ATRAC system, having twice the transform window size (1024 samples [23.2ms], vs. 512 samples [11.6ms]), encoding tone components separately from other spectra, splitting the input signal into 4 bands instead of 3, and using Huffman coding on the final bit stream to squeeze out redundancy." However, Sony has probably gone to a new version of ATRAC3 for this new application of writing to CDs.
Sony has basically scrapped the idea of using minidiscs as a data storage medium, at least to the genral public. However, Sony did release a digital camera that wrote to MDdata discs, and there are some professional recorders that record multitrack MD data discs. It is interesting that they're only now starting to apply ATRAC technology outside of the MD format.
For more info on MD and ATRAC encoding, i reccomend Minidisc.org
Steam propulsion will revolutionize the sea.
You can keep building your clipper ships; we'll admire that intersection of form and function for years to come, to be sure.
Ultimately, smart money will evacuate the market before it is crushed by better technology.
Dumb money will stand around whining, or, worse still for all, attempt to prop up its impotence with lawsuits.
Easy for me to say; it's not my career.
Nevertheless, let common sense and long-term planning be your guide.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Mini-DVDs. Like the small format mini-CDRs you can burn with ~200 megs of MP3s. I love my Memorex mini-CDR/MP3 player, for the portability of the discs, which I can easily carry 4 or 5 of in my jacket pocket when I go skiing. If they made mini DVD-R/MP3 players, I could fit my entire music collection on one mini DVD-R. And that would convince me to finally buy a DVD burner.
This article claims they can fit 30 hours of music on a CD using MiniDisc compression, which from what I've read only provides a 5:1 compression ratio, or about 6.7 hours on an 80 minute disc. In order to compress 30 hours of music into 700MB you'd need to compress it at about 53kbps, which I don't know of any compression format which provides decent audio quality at that rate. Even the claims of 100 hours of music on a DVD (assuming a standard single layer 4.7GB recordable DVD) would only allow for 110kbps which is getting kind of low.
The RIAA sucks. Record labels suck. Payola sucks, and pretty much everything about the music industry sucks. This completes the technical analysis of the music industry...
The popular music industry uses a unique business model. Talented (and untalented) people create songs. They then hire a manager or promoter to get them shows and introduce them to and represent their interests with record labels. The manager takes the artist's(') songs and sells them to record labels. Record labels help the artists record these songs onto some form of salable, distributable media. Record labels hire big name producers to assist the recording and creation process. Record labels then enable the artist to receive exposure on television, radio, and whatever format du jour that looks good. This promotion enables artists to sell hundreds of thousands of copies of their songs instead of just hundreds of copies. The money generated from these sales is divided three ways between the record label, the producer, the manager, and the artist(s). Why does the artist, who is creating the product, get the short end of the stick?
Answer: If an engineer creates a product for Company X, and Company X sells this product and makes millions off of the idea, the engineer will not see a large percentage of the money generated from his/her idea.
If an engineer came up with a brilliant product idea, but after one widget was sold, consumers could infinitely copy it... The engineer might be slightly upset if that began to happen.
If an engineer creates a widget that sells millions of copies, and this widget was copied because the original widget broke, the engineer might still be upset. If you broke your widget, then you should have to pay to replace your widget. If you need a backup widget, you should just buy two. If you can't use your widget, then why did you buy it? Remember that if there is enough demand for alternatives to widgets, then someone else could create a wadget and sell to this new market.
The music industry does not like this new technology because now it is not possible for an artist to sell a CD that is full. Have you noticed that some store bought audio tapes can hold up to 90 minutes of music? CDs are a bit of a step backwards. And, even though people recognize the superior audio capabilities of several audio formats, they are not being used or widely sold. Admittedly, that could be due to format wars. But, I would love to go to the store and buy a CD with every single song ever recorded by an artist. This is easily possible with MP3s. I might even be willing to pay more than $20, especially for prolific artists. I could live with the lower sound quality because of the quantity provided. This is not happening. I hate the music industry, which is determined to suicide by means of terrible public relations.
Webmaster Wanted - Entropic Reactions
How about the Billboard Top 100 Singles by year on a single disc. As a huge fan of 80's music, I would rather drop $50 for each disc to get the hits from '84, '85, and '86 rather than several hundred dollars on individual discs or crappy compilations that are 80% filler anyway.
How about releasing a band's entire back catalog on one of these discs, complete with liner notes, lyrics and videos for $100. The Complete Pink Floyd. The Complete Led Zepellin. The Complete Iron Maiden (no snickering).
How about releasing The Essential Tour Compilation. Take the top 25 live shows from a band's previous tour and add travel diaries, interviews, and massive picture galleries. I'd drop a c note on that.
The best part is that this will fit seemlessly into how I already use my music. I curse those stacks and stacks of CDs that take up space in my closet, no longer used because I prefer the freedom a 24x CD-RW drive, dual 100GB hard drives, and a RioVolt that plays MP3 CDs give me.
The music industry has had its collective head up its collective arse for way too long. The technology is there just begging to be used in new and interesting ways, but they're still crunching the numbers with an abacus! Give me a fair price, flush the DRM bullshit and stop calling me a fucking "pirate" and maybe I'll help save your pathetic industry.
We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
Sony's unit will probably use OpenMG for DRM, just like the NetMD enabled MD units do. What this essentially means is that the tracks on the disc will be encrypted in a way that only allows them to play on YOUR player, and "uploading" tracks will only be possible to the desktop machine that they originated on, and then only if there's still an encrypted backup of the track stored on the hard drive there. Even with that much restriction, the NetMD MD players limit the number of times any particular track may be downloaded onto a disc.
Expect as least that much hassle with the Sony unit. Do a search for "OpenMG" for the full horror story.
-P.
A CD is 1411.2kbps 44.1kHz 16bit stereo PCM, with basic error correction codes, with around 74~80 minutes of maximum capacity.
30 hours means 1800 minutes, divide 1800 with 74, and you get 24.324324324, so that means 24x times compression. Divide 1411.2kbps by 24.324324324 and you get around 58kbps.
One more try, divide 1800 with 80, get 22.5, divide 1411.2 by 22.5, get 62kbps.
So basically, they use they're saying they're using approx. 58~62kbps ATRAC3 on a CD. Doesn't sound all that nice to me.
ATRAC was heavily criticized in audio publications such as Stereophile
Stereophile refuses to perform double-blind testing and have been taken in by hoax after hoax. They swore that coloring the edge of a CD green (with a product called "CD Stoplight") improved the sound. I used to subscribe but got sick of the $400 speaker cables, magic line cords, and other unscientific "tweaks."
If Stereophile's reviewers go into a listening session and are told that they are hearing audio that has been subjected to a type of lossy compression, they have a preconceived notion that it will sound inferior. They want, desperately, to hear a difference to prove to themselves, their colleagues, and their readers that they posess both superior hearing and exquisite audio equipment. It's no way to do science and should be rejected as a methodology.
> What if I want to put all of the MP3's I legitimately downloaded from MP3.com or 1Sound.com or Ampcast.com or Besonic.com or JavaMusic.com or...
You don't seem to get it. The RIAA doesn't acknowledge the _existence_ of legal MP3 files (or any other type of files - divx, etc.). To do so would make people see the gaping hole in their 'proof' that file-trading is the same as stealing a CD. Don't _ever_ expect the RIAA to 'get it'. They get it - and they're lying their asses off (and likely PAYING off) hoping the legislators WON'T get it.
Yes, they could make shitloads more money by making use of new technology - that's not the point. The RIAA know this. Their big thing is CONTROL over the entertainment products (and the artists that create them). This is all about control, not the initial revenue. AFTER they have grabbed total control, THEN they can choke the money out of everyone. It's just like MS - they'll take a massive monetary hit in initial revenue to take over a market and destroy their competition. Yes, Xbox, I'm talking about you.
"It's a no-brainer. Anything which lets people pirate more music like this has to be very bad news for the music industry," says a spokesman for Britain's record industry trade association, the BPI.
"It's a no-brainer. Anything which lets people enjoy their music on-the-go on their own terms is a good thing," says the general public.
Why Sony should want to launch a recorder that might make piracy easier may seem surprising, as its Sony Music division makes and sells CDs. While Sony Music did not want to comment on its sister company's launch, Mike Tsurumi, a president of Sony Consumer Electronics in Berlin, insists that the move makes sense. "The music companies need to change their business model," he says.
As if that was really news...Mike Tsurumi needs to talk to the head of Sony Music.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
They serve plates with ten things on it.
You get no choice on what food goes on which plate. If you want fries, you get nine more food items as well, whether you want them or not, and pay full price for all.
So you want a burger, fries, and a coke. That's three plates. Fries come on one, the other has a burger on it, and a coke comes with a third. You get a shitload of asparagus, beans, corn, some sort of goo claimed to be edible, along with other unwanted items.
Tell me, honestly, would you eat there?
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
Yes. High End audio types are hysterical. "Oxygen-free copper cables", indeed.
Now there are even "high end" RJ11 cables for dial-up modems. Like the five feet from the wall jack to the computer will be where noise gets in, as opposed to the miles of unshielded wire from the jack to the central office.
Phillips' MP3/DVD portable may be yet to be released but the Sony MPDAP20U has already been out for a couple of months. It seems like the Holy Grail of Portables: 24X/10X/24X CD-RW, 8X DVD-ROM (plays MP3/DVDs), USB 2.0, LCD remote, no DRM, and oh yeah, it has a Memory Stick slot, too. It's a little spendy at $299. Page 33 of the User Guide confirms that MP3 on DVD-R/RW is a go (and via Memory Stick as well). Here's a review.
I'm a singer in an original band. If you ask me, this would be a great way to get music to the masses. We're already savvy enough to deal with the RIAA, and we also feel that P2P filesharing is a great way to get our music out.
Yes, we own all the copyrights. But we don't mind the music being spread around for free. Four words: Word Of Mouth Advertising. Works wonders for any business. The more people hear it, the more people show up at gigs and buy CDs, T's, etc.
A device like this is a musician's dream. When you want to move music around, you're limited to the capacity of CD-Rs and RW's. Well, us po' musicians, anyway. LOL. But I digress. A device like this would save us a WORLD of trouble. All band members record whatever they work on, passing it back and forth via handheld devices such as this, and their computers at home.
The format to record and compress should be open standard, DRM-free codecs, like anything Vorbis. Since I'm the singer, but also something of a geek, I would much prefer Open Source options. Linux-based onboard OS? We know Sony's at least halfway Linux-friendly. They did put out a PS2 kit...
That'd most certainly be something I'd use. Screw DRM. Oh no, I'm going to pirate my own music! Better stop me before I can! I don't want a whole bunch of encryption crap in my music, just the music codec itself. That's just being a pain in the ass, and you know Microsoft is going to lobby for proprietary control. No, no, a hundred times no. Open Source, DRM-Free.
Oh wait. I'm sorry. Everything I stand for isn't what the RIAA/MPAA/MS want. This technology gives me more freedom, allows me to absorb some of the cost of getting a break, and makes things easier all-around. It lessens their involvment, and thus lessens the amount of bucks they deserve. That's bad, isn't it.
I'm just a dumb, awe-struck-by-the-business musician, what do I know...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
When debating about lossy formats with variable parameters, it can easily get to the point of making a flamewar of "quality vs. bitrate", "MP3 vs. OGG vs. ATRAC vs. whatever".
/.er noted, the MDLP and NetMD features were created by pure marketing necessity, Sony basically noticed some people are too stupid and don't give a damn about quality when presented with silly figures like "X hours of music on a disk".
But you're missing the point. You are talking about Sony, a big consumer electronics company, not about esoteric command line parameters.
On a regular Minidisc deck, you don't get to manage the ATRAC compression parameters and bitrate, and you get a very good quality and a real "guarantee" that if you are using all-Sony equipment, your recorded Minidiscs are going to sound just great. This is simple, and users love it.
Now, MP3 is a format that almost nobody but experienced people understands. As you said: "MP3s encoded at 128kbps CBR (constant bit rate) using an encoder such as Xing WILL result in poor-quality mp3s". Want to bet how many people sharing their MP3s collections on P2P know that? Popular MP3s on the 'Net are of average quality, at best. Most of them are real crap (well, some songs may not deserve any better).
ATRAC is a format users DON'T NEED to understand. Minidisc is a user-end oriented product, and a really good one at that. ATRAC even has full forward and backward compatibility, meaning you don't need to know which versions of encoded discs and decoder players you have for them to work perfectly.
Now, as other
MDLP and NetMD are there for a reason, it's comparable to the quality Kaaza lusers are used to from their crappy MP3s, while keeping the simplicity of the Minidisc format.
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
Mysteriously enough, most audiophiles hear what they want to hear. Somehow I trust the real double-blind studies I've seen with real audiophiles, with real audiophile equipment, that don't know if they're listening to a CD or an mp3 (up front I mean) much more than an audiophile that pops in a CD in his $$$ system and says "well listen to *my* system and you'll hear the difference.
And those studies say a good mp3 encoding (192k/s VBR / 256k/s CBR) is as good as the CD. Worked on a couple of friends of mine at least... was shitting mp3, but they couldn't tell them apart when I encoded to mp3, decoded to wav and burned in random pairs (original/mp3 pair) on CD.
Also as for b), blaming the PC equipment is very much redundant, as any serious half-audiophile will use the digital out to connect to a much better sound system than a PC audio card. Just don't start talking to me about gold plated radiation shielded bubblewrapped digital sound cables, please?
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Most of my listening is done two places, either walking with a portable or driving in my car. My portable is a Teac mini-CD MP3 player (plays ISOs with MP3s on the small CDs), my car is the CD player that came with it ('01 Honda CR-V).
While walking outside, there's so much background noise and my headphones (either the earbuds or my Koss Porta-Pro juniors) just aren't good enough to be able to tell a "really good" MP3 from an OK one. I have a ton encoded with the Xing encoder (most were done with VBR), and I couldn't tell you which ones were which, they sound fine to me. I can tell *damaged* MP3s (those with skips, bad warble) but not "bad" ones.
It's even more true in my car. My car CDs are audio CDs but made from MP3 files. The car is such a noisy environment, that I don't see how you could tell a "good" MP3 from a "bad" one (again, damaged is another category).
I think you'd have to do some serious, high-quality headphone listening in a really quiet environment to be able to tell the difference. I think the vast majority of people might be able to tell the difference in some places with A/B listening when coached, but if you just put the MP3 on and played it they'd never say "that sounds off, is it a 128k xing?"