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Dismal Apple Forecasts Are Wrong

Nutrimentia writes "Tom Yager has a new column at Infoworld disputing poor analytic forecasts of Apple's future, especially based on criticism of Apple's lack of innovation (which seems to me to be pretty easy to refute, but whatever). It's a balanced article that looks at what Apple is doing right and wrong, and he offers some good reasons to pay attention to Apple even if you aren't a Mac fan, namely that the company's approaches to the market help understand many broader trends in effect."

32 of 107 comments (clear)

  1. He's got it right about developer documentation... by Chief+Typist · · Score: 5, Informative

    He's right on target about developer training & documentation. It sucks big-time: poorly categorized and there is lots of missing information.

    When I'm looking for an answer to a technical problem, I typically find answers at sites like Mamasam or CocoaDev. The Cocoa Dev Central site is a good source of sample code, too. Many more resources are listed here

    Historically, Mac developer's have been very picky about this: Inside Macintosh is wonderful. It's an excellent technical reference presented in a consistent and easily readible format.

  2. Just ignore them and they go away... by heldlikesound · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As an admitted Apple zealot, I used to get so pissed off about finacial analysts getting thier collective panties in a bunch about Apple going out of business within a year or so... Now I just don't care what they say. Apple is a good company, they respond quickly to market trends, and often are the ones setting trends, but they are not too quick to create a stupid PDA that nobody wants (anymore). They have about $4 billion on paper, the good kind of paper, CASH. For a company as relatively small as Apple is, they innovate and create or help to create more standards they just about anyone out there.

    One last thought, just to show I'm not a completely blind follower of Lord Jobs. Had Apple not gotten OSX so gosh darn right, I would have bailed, OS9 was showing it's age and starting to get real flakey under stress. I'd either be running a user-friendly (although OSX has taught me a good deal of under the hood UNIX stuff) or, shudder to think, Win2K. However, I believe they did get OSX right, in my opinion, besides the first Macintosh, it's the greatest thing Apple has ever done.

    Apple needs some fast processors from IBM and the education market back.

    They will be fine.

    --


    Cloud City Digital: DVD Production at its cheapest/finest
    1. Re:Just ignore them and they go away... by rogueroo · · Score: 3, Informative
    2. Re:Just ignore them and they go away... by wchin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ah, read it again.

      As of 12/28/02, they had 4.462 billion in cash and short term investments. Short term investments include corporate securities and bonds and so on. These are things that company can liquidate very quickly and therefore are lumped together with the cash position of the company.

    3. Re:Just ignore them and they go away... by selderrr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple needs the education market back.

      This is gonna be a very painful episode : my kids are in elementary school, and whenever computers have to be purchased, budget is usually limited at 100$ per machine. There's never a new PC purchased, as por that price they can get 5 second hand machines. Macs, being expensive even in second hand, completely falls out of the boat here.

      Educational spending on computers is at a historical low in Belgium, and I figure most other contries too since the dot.com.bubble.burst.

      No way there's an iMac in a classroom of a small school. Not even an eMac. And as we all now : elementary schools pave the path to highschools. What kids liearn at age 10, is what they want at age 15.

    4. Re:Just ignore them and they go away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A friend of mine was recently in CompUSA. (I try to avoid the place because I generally find nothing but a headache when I go into that store - especially if I need knowledgeable help.)
      Anyway, apparently he was talking to the store manager who said Apple's have been selling really really well the past month. He actually said something about businesses have been buying apples from them "2-to-1 over Windows PCs". That may just mean that most businesses don't buy their computers from CompUSA, but it still sounds like good news for Apple.

    5. Re:Just ignore them and they go away... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 4, Informative

      No way there's an iMac in a classroom of a small school.

      Schools do not buy Macs at list price. Apple has extraordinarily aggressive incentive programs for schools that want to buy Macs; 80% off the retail price of the machines is not that unusual.

      Details may vary overseas.

      --

      I write in my journal
    6. Re:Just ignore them and they go away... by selderrr · · Score: 2, Informative

      Details may vary overseas.

      You bet they do !

      20% to 30% is the max discount we get here. Dell gives far higher volume discounts for our university : I don't know the financial details, but *every machine* bought by univ money is a Dell. Project budgets can be spent anywhere offcourse, but univ techies will fix only Dells. Even if it's a dumb floppy drive install.

      The sad part is that Apple is even losing in the univ hospital : "Ghasthuisberg" is the biggest hospital in belgium (it's huge for belgian norms. It's a small city on its own) and ran 50% macs about 10 years ago. Now that's perhaps 5%, mainly due to the price and lack of support from sales.

      That sales support is painfull too : My dad, who is a prof at the univ, wanted 3 new flatpanel iMacs, standard model, nothing fancy. Guess what ? It took 4 weeks to ship them !!!!!

  3. Blindness as Vision by thefinite · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I guess I was out of touch with the analysts of late, because I didn't know they thought things were so bad. Still, it's a good thing I wasn't paying rapt attention to them, or I would've sold my PowerBook and bought it back about 5 times in the past two years.

    What I don't get it why they haven't figured it out yet that Apple is strong and steady, unlike its counterparts. The blips on the rader are just that, blips. I find it quite ironic that the people who are supposed to have this figured out are the ones who understand it the least.

    --
    Boom Shanka
  4. Apple's Historical Hits and Misses by Spencerian · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Apple is still a computer company to watch, although it may be of lesser interest to stockholders today. Still, if you were to bet on any one personal computer company to make something that would transform a process, Apple is a safe bet.

    Apple is where it is now for several great ideas and collossal screw-ups, many of which determined the company's present destiny.

    (My history highlights come from Apple History to make my point easier, and for your reference.)

    1977: The Apple II is born, beginning the personal computer boom in earnest. Apple develops, by some estimates, a 75% market share.

    1984: Apple develops a successor to the Apple II line, the Macintosh. It used a graphical interface and mouse and was the first computer with a GUI to become commercially successful. Apple boneheads the initial fate of the Mac's success by: (1) failing to make Apple II apps work with the computer, (2) making the system underpowered until 1986, (3) making the computer with a 9-inch screen that was hard on the eyes, and (4) making the Mac very expensive ($2495).

    1986: Apple updates the Macintosh with the Mac Plus, with more RAM, external SCSI support, and a true hierarchial file system update for the OS. A software company, Aldus, creates PageMaker, which takes steam as the first desktop publishing program. Apple soon offers the LaserWriter, one of the first laser printers. A good move by Apple that still gives them the lead in DTP and prepress work today.

    1985: Bill Gates sends a memo to then-Apple CEO John Sculley (having been hired by Steve Jobs and then, shortly, has Jobs ousted from Apple). Gates recommends that Apple license the Macintosh (warning: PDF) to make it a standard computer operating system. Gates recognized that Macs were great but weren't reaching critical mass. When Apple refused, Gates requested a license to duplicate the look and feel of some of the Mac OS in a product he was considering with IBM. Biggest bonehead move of all for Apple as this would've made the landscape completely different from the OS world we know today.

    1988: Apple finally offers a Mac with internal hardware expandability, including a larger screen: the Macintosh II. It was too late for those who chose a more expandable IBM PC. This moves breathes life into its products, and vendor support improves.

    1990-1998: Apple creates more good, innovative ideas, such as the PowerBook laptop (whose design elements are commonplace on PC laptops today) and the Newton (the first PDA), but never capitalizes on them as they want to hold on to all rights. This"not-invented-here" policy nearly kills the company as expensive, confusing models aren't clear, and developers find Windows apps more lucrative. Apple's overall market share plummets. Windows 95's debut makes this worse. Apple considers and offers Mac OS licensing, but this only makes Apple's problems worse as 3rd party clones are better products than Apple's.

    Apple completely loses its marketing model. Steve Jobs ousts CEO Gil Amelio to return to as company CEO and begins to repair Apple's products and credibility.

    In my opinion, Apple's best move would've been in licensing themselves. It may have killed Apple ultimately, but the Macintosh technologies would have survived and improved dramatically as the PC clones have proved out over time.

    Is Apple still a force to be reckoned with? Even if you don't know an Apple from a PC, the company history suggests that, if there is a new spin on a computer program or hardware product, Apple usually thinks of it first. Unlike the Apple of the past, however, don't expect Apple to abandon its creations at the first sign of trouble.

    --
    Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
    1. Re:Apple's Historical Hits and Misses by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In my opinion, Apple's best move would've been in licensing themselves. It may have killed Apple ultimately...

      Then how would it have been the best move? Best for whom?

      --

      I write in my journal
    2. Re:Apple's Historical Hits and Misses by gidds · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Exactly.

      I suspect the implied answer was "for us consumers", but I seriously doubt that would be the case. Initially, users would have benefitted from the Mac's much greater user-friendliness and technical strengths; but after that...

      Apple has always been a very different company from Microsoft, and I doubt that they would have taken quite the same money-driven, just-good-enough approach. But without anyone to compete with, would Apple have continued to innovate at the same rate? Would it have been persuaded to work with open standards, interfaces, open source? Would it still be a small, nimble company that could move fast? I doubt it.

      In competition, both Apple and Microsoft are producing far better software than either would on their own (whether it's through innovating, or copying the other...) In short, even if Apple as a company benefitted from licensing, I don't think we consumers would have done in the long term.

      --

      Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

    3. Re:Apple's Historical Hits and Misses by C0LDFusion · · Score: 2, Informative

      You forgot so many things, like the Apple III debacle, exploding PowerBook Batteries getting recalled...and then the recalls getting recalled.

      Just to name a few things. I'm not going to do the litany,

      --
      Only in slashdot are posts of solidarity modded at -1 Redundant, while posts of antagonism are modded as -1 Flamebait.
    4. Re:Apple's Historical Hits and Misses by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't see Apple as a life form. It can die tomorrow and I would not mourn. It's a godless, soulless entity as are all businesses. I just like the tech involved.

      Have you ever heard the story of the goose that laid the golden egg? Here's a hint: Apple's the goose.

      If Apple were to have ceased to exist as a company in, say, 1988, all the great things that they've created since then never would have existed.

      If you like the golden eggs, then you'd better not roast the goose. It would make you a fine dinner, but it wouldn't be the wisest move in the long run.

      --

      I write in my journal
    5. Re:Apple's Historical Hits and Misses by Alex+Thorpe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree with most of your history, save that the clone makers made better products. They had lower prices and faster processors, which admittedly seems to mean better to many PC users, but were cheaply made, relying on Apple to do all the R&D. They nearly drove Apple out of business, yet couldn't survive without Apple.

      Even today, Apple couldn't survive another round of licenced clones, as any licencee would have a much lower overhead than Apple, be able to make much cheaper units, and probably still wouldn't attract too many Windows users.

      --
      "Common Sense Ain't" -Unknown
  5. Here's why Apple has a bright future: by dpbsmith · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just take a look at this article at www.imaging-resource.com.

    This isn't a Mac bigot. This is a guy that completed a slide show project, after much struggle, using DVDit on a Wintel box. "Some helpful souls suggested we'd enjoy life more if we used iDVD on the Mac. So we did."

    He started working at 4:50 p.m. Every darn thing he tried just plain worked the way he expected. "At 6:10 we were ready to burn. ...And we'd spent the whole time -- not just a large part of it -- arranging the show contents rather than fighting the program interface.... We were done at 6:26." He said "...the only [really] aggravating part of the whole process [was] getting the blessed cellophane wrapping off the blank DVD. We can't wait to get these in spindles."

    Apple's situation has been the same as it always been. Microsoft, like IBM before it, has the hearts and minds of the corporate IT departments and wins all the top-down purchasing decisions.

    But everyone who actually has to use the things finds that Apple's hardware and software, overall, are just plain easier, nicer, faster, and more productive to use than Wintel gear.

    As long as the people who actually use computers have any say whatever in what computers they use, Apple has a bright future.

    1. Re:Here's why Apple has a bright future: by fidget42 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Its really fun to read the Windows version as well.

      --
      The dogcow says "Moof!"
    2. Re:Here's why Apple has a bright future: by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The comparison at hand is between iDVD, which comes with an Apple-branded DVD burner, and DVDit LE, which is the software that came with the other computer or DVD burner or whatever. In other words, it's a completely valid comparison.

      If you want to compare non-bundled DVD authoring packages for Windows with non-bundled DVD authoring packages for the Mac, then we have to pull out DVD Studio Pro... and believe me, you don't want that. The comparison would not be flattering.

      --

      I write in my journal
    3. Re:Here's why Apple has a bright future: by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the burner came with crap software, that's the fault of the company producing the burner. Remember, Microsoft does not sell PCs (XBox aside), Apple does. This was not a Windows/Mac comparison, it was an Apple/Whoever Made the DVD burner comparison.

      I suggusted Vegas+DVD to show that Windows is not the problem here. Dell could probably ship a copy of Vegas+DVD on every system they sold with a DVD burner - Sonic Foundry is almost out of business and I'm sure they would be willing to license their package to Dell for very little cost.

      iDvd is a great package. I've used it. It's no DVD Studio Pro, but it's good enough for most projects. But complaining about a stupid DVD package is not a comparison betweeen Mac and Windows. It is a comparison between what Apple shipped with their machine and what shipped with the DVD burner.

      The author thankfully found TMPGEnc. It's an excellent encoder, and I believe that it offers more flexibility than the encoder in iDVD. The author didn't seem to be able to figure out how to use TMPGEnc, despite the fact that it has a wizard that shows you all of the profiles it has at the start, and, yes, it has profiles for DVD.

      So what we have here is a DVD burner company or a PC company seriously trying to cut corners by bundling the cheapest DVD

      Comparing Vegas+DVD to DVD Studio Pro + Final Cut Pro would probably come out favorably for Vegas. Final Cut and DVD Studio are definately more fully featured, but Vegas is also quite capable. The difference? $999 vs $2999.
      If there's some incredible difference, please tell me, as I've never used Final Cut.

  6. apple's are awesome.. by josepha48 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    No joke, just yesterday my roommate told me of how his ibook saved the say. Here goes...

    He was at his church trying to use thier windows pc to print the church budget for a meeting. Windows kept giving him the error message that 'either the printer is off or the port is disconnected.' Well it wasn't. It was hooked up and it is usb. My roommate after several tried gave up and hooked the usb cord for the printer up to his ibook. The ibook recgonized the printer, and he was able to print. He was so happy as there was no software installation nothing. Just plug in USB and print.

    Now before the mac haters or basher start I wil lsay this. Mac is missing a few things, like drivers for certain hardware. However the hardware that it does have drivers for works easily in my experience. Apple has done a wonderful job with their OS X and if windows was 1/2 as good we would not need as many desktop 'PC = personal computer' (which includes macs) admins. Yes some people would be out of jobs. I now do 0 admin on his machine whereas windows I was was doing lots of debugging because this or that did not work. I love mac's cause that have literally made MY life easeier. Your experience may vary, but I love the macs,a nd as soon as I can afford a powerbook, I'm getting one....

    --

    Only 'flamers' flame!

    1. Re:apple's are awesome.. by C0LDFusion · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not that the drivers are lacking, it's that some hardware companies are making parts for PC's and adding "support" to MacOS on the off-hand without Apple collaboration. It costs a bit more to work with Apple, and that's why. But companies that work with Apple have an advantage over other manufacturers who are giving Mac Compatability as an afterthought...Apple helps you build it into the hardware.

      It was one of the best things about the old Macs and I think it's still present in many other Mac stuff. Apple got PnP to work from the beginning by giving third-party hardware manufacturers the method for a hardwired driver. Even if it wasn't the full driver, companies could put a special chip on their hardware to AT LEAST let the hardware function in "safe mode" while you get it working, but most of the time, the chip contains the entire driver set for the hardware. That's why I've never had to install a single driver for any video card I've purchased for a Mac. I only go with companies that bother to work with Apple.

      I paid dearly when I bought a cheapo mac Modem (designed for Mac w/o Apple's blessing) that I could never get to work. I bought a GeoPort (before drivers came standard in the OS install) and it worked perfectly!

      Of course, I use a PC right now, because I can't afford a new Mac.

      --
      Only in slashdot are posts of solidarity modded at -1 Redundant, while posts of antagonism are modded as -1 Flamebait.
  7. FYI, Apple producing Office Killer by Toe,+The · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Apple's biggest problem these days is that their most important software is made by their biggest competitor. In a business environment, a Mac is liekly to use MS Explorer, MS Entourage, MS Word, MS Excel, and MS PowerPoint.

    Now, enter iWorks, Apple's forthcoming answer to that bug-laden piece of poorly programmed crap that should still be in Alpha, called MS Office.

    Apple is taking on MS on every front. In the enterprise, they're producing powerful, cheap, easy to deploy servers. And now they're producing the clients for those servers.

    The day of the desktop PC for personal use is over, and Apple is the only company to see it. Desktops still have uses in the Enterprise, and Apple is poised to take over there as well.

    1. Re:FYI, Apple producing Office Killer by Johnny+Mozzarella · · Score: 2

      This is very exciting news. I am hoping that Document and Spreadsheet are Cocoa apps not Carbon code from AppleWorks. I also hope that they will adopt an XML file format for Document and Spreadsheet in keeping with Keynote's use of XML.

      I also believe that Apple needs to make Windows versions of Safari and Document. Many websites are still IE on PC only. Having 2 million Safari on the Mac users out there isn't going to sway a lot of companies that they need to develop their sites to work with all browsers.

      But if there were 20 million users of Safari on the Mac and PC things would change.

      Same thing applies to Document. Microsoft's .doc format has a death grip on the business world. Unless there is an affordable alternative that can read and write .doc files it isn't going very far.

      The word processor is the only piece of the office package that most users need. Apple should make Document for the PC and make it affordable. It will introduce many PC users to how software should be written. For those who decide that they need Spreadsheet and Keynote as well...

      well that when they start considering getting a Mac. If Apple wants people to switch they need some bait. Most of the bait Apple has is only on the Mac platform and never on the radar of most PC users. If Apple were to start taking the battle to Microsoft's home turf, I think we would start seeing many more people considering Apple.

  8. PC World needs apple by Enrique1218 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The personal would be slow to innovate if it weren't for Apple. Apple is the only computer that is willing to think outside of the box. Other have mentioned it before GUI interface, USB, Firewire, Good Design, etc. Does anyone think Dell and the likes would really fork tons money into R&D when they too busy cost-each other? Not really but they will borrow ideas from Apple once they have been proven to sell (wide-screen Insprions, thin and light centrinos with large battery life, gigabit ethernet in ThinkPads, DVD-R everywhere etc.) To tell the truth, I don't think anyone wants to see Apple go because then would have to start innovating for themselves.

    --
    You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
    1. Re:PC World needs apple by pressman · · Score: 2, Informative

      GUI - Apple popularized it... used it when noone thought there was a use for it.
      USB - Nope didn't invent it, but neither did Intel, they just bought the technology - USB didn't truly take off until Apple put it in the Imacs and B&W G3's.
      FireWire - Synonymous with Digital Video... truly revolutionary
      Good Design - Who else other than Sony is doing it?

      --
      Pooty tweet
    2. Re:PC World needs apple by Enrique1218 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just to clarify.

      No Apple didn't invent USB but they were the first to used it in place of legacy serial ports (ADB, RS-422). Usb was inherently better because of hot swappability, plug and play, and speed. Later Dell and Compaq with little success release legacy free computers that only had USB ports.

      GUI- Xerox used it on their devices, Apple copied it and brought it to computers as way to interface with them. Perhaps the concepts of GUI were orinally conceive with the invention of the mouse. But the point is Apple did it first on commercially distributed computer .(Macintosh)

      Good Design- I am not talking about a cute computer. I am talking about taking taking top of the line processor, a large display, a DVD-R drive, and a hard drive and putting into a swelt 1 inch thick 5.3 pound package. Doing this for 2 years. Closest PC equivalents are IBM T40, Sony Vaio Z1, and Dell Inspiron 600m which were release this month and they still dont have all those specs. You can ask any Business traveler, who has to carry around luggage, paperwork, etc in addition to his labtop if they would appreciate good design in that respect.

      PS: Watch your language. This forum is where people give their best opinion they can on the knowledge have. If you don't agree, I am sure with a little effort you think of better way to write it out without profanity. Then again maybe not.

      --
      You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
  9. Apps are a large part of a "platform" by Onan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you'd said "don't blame the OS for crappy apps," or "don't blame the hardware for crappy apps," I might agree with you. But you specifically brought up the term "platform," which implies that we're talking about the whole package that's actually available to the user. Application quality is extremely relevant to that discussion.

    The software you recommend appears to have a list price of $999.99. Compared to iDVD's price of free, that's a substantial downside. For that additional thousand bucks, you could buy a copy of Final Cut Pro, and once again leapfrog the functionality of the Windows software.

  10. Re:He's got it right about developer documentation by WatertonMan · · Score: 4, Informative
    Apple's many mailing lists are excellent resources. The product developers are often members and can answer most questions. The quality of feedback on the X11 mailing list was, for instance, quite amazing. Same with the Project Builder.

    Check them out:

    http://search.lists.apple.com/

    Apple's ADC pages have quite a bit of source code as well I've found invaluable. No its not as nice as the initial volumes of Inside Mac were. However given the work Apple is doing on its development tools, there is too much of a moving target to have a tool like that. Apple's worked with O'Reilly to produce quality introductory materials. They also recognize that, unlike the 80's, most of us use the internet to get "how-to's." So it really is a different environment.

    http://developer.apple.com/macosx/

  11. Re:Apple is dying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    it is a mathematically provable fact that there are more gay men using PCs than Macs, through sheer marketshare.

    besides, how do you account for the gay man's superior sense of style?

    and, how do you account for proving this point by cutting-and-pasting the same woefully pathetic incendiary letter on every single goddam apple post?

    how, AC, do you reconcile the fact that you are somehow *threatened* by what is (by your own admission) the mac's superior technology? how do you respond to that without looking for all the world like Jackass Prime?

    answer: you don't.

  12. Let's ask the bigger questions. by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Like, for example: How is it that Apple, while constantly 're-inventing' itself, manages to always occupy the same niche of perception?

    Why does the general public think that 5% marketshare is a shameful thing in the computer world?

    Why are people threatened to the point of flameage over the simple existence of Mac hardware?

    Why does Apple provoke such intense reactions?

    They must be one of the most scrutenized companies in the world. And, as everyone knows, the joke is so old its got whiskers: "Sure Apple is going out of business. They'll still be going out of business long after you and I retire."

    Is it because MS is the only other mainstream OS provider? I wonder if things would be different, in an alternate universe, where we're buying Atari and Amiga and BeOS boxen.

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
  13. Re:As much as I dislike Microsoft... by Toe,+The · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Try supporting Entourage in a corporate environment. Like every other MS product, it is coded like crap.

    Granted, Entourage is much better than most MS products, but it is still a source of many problems in my office. It just isn't coded well. One person might never notice all it's horrible problems, but put 50 not-so-savvy people to work on it, and it's a friggin nightmare. Like it is with all the other MS products we use.

    I'm looking forward to having a 100% Microsoft-free office by the end of 2003.

  14. -1 old troll by Surlyboi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is more like bad design (where it matters). Sure, the colors get copied by George Foreman grills, but there are the Apple's basic ergornomic failures that PC's are thankfully slow to copy, such as single-button mouse and bent paperclip in a hole media eject system.

    Back under the bridge with you, you old troll.
    The one-button mouse straw man is older than your
    mom and the paperclip eject scheme is on PC
    hardware as well.

    Other Apple "firsts" do get copied, and the results are unfortunate. PC's used to have large obviously-labelled power buttons. Now they have followed Apple's lead and made this difficult so that yanking the power cable out the back is the quickest way to power down.

    You're obviously a moron if you can't find the
    well-lit power buttons on most of todays machines.
    I guess that explains the low quality of your
    trolling skills...

    --
    Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...