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Sun Plans VB-Like Tools For Java
CokoBWare writes "Sun apparently is trying to create a more VB-like experience for developer. This article from E-Week explains Sun's strategy in providing more VBesque tools for the Java developer. Can anyone say "Good luck Sun, and all the best"?"
About four years too late, but hey.
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
Sun apparently is trying to create a more VB-like experience for developer.
:)
OK, is this a deliberate attempt to erase any positive feelings that anyone has ever had for Sun or Java?
Seriously, WTF? It's not like Java isn't braindead enough on its own [/flamebait].
On a more serious note, I *really* don't understand the reasoning behind this decision on Sun's part. Any Java developers out there? What do you think about this?
hopefully they dont include the virus scripting capabilities like M$ did... LoveLetter for SUN java anyone?
No I didnt spell check this post...
If this follows Sun's other attempts at engineering in the Java API's it should work pretty well.
.Net and C# for developing business systems, but the tools need to be on the same level. I guess you could say 'It's the tools, stupid!'. Maybe Sun will realize that decent development tools are the crack that MS has used to hook tons of developers and if equivilent tools were available to new Java developers (and experienced ones who hate tedium), the rate of adoption would pick up.
While EJBs and other API's have been a great way to create reusable components with lots of enterprise class features, the idea of writing 5 different classes where a lot of the information is repetitive then editing a global XML file or two was rediculous. Hopefully they'll take the XDoclet approach and include the meta information used to generate this stuff from a single file.
It's really the same thing with 'JavaBeans', which I remember playing with in '97, the concept was really great but the extra maintenance on BeanInfo classes and such was a complete PITA.
It seems to me that Sun has created a lot of flexibility and interoperability in their development kits, but they have never addressed the management of the complexity that it creates. The best thing the commercial world came up with was systems that were quick hacks tied to their development tools (WebSphere anyone?). The Open Source world has offered stuff like XDoclet, which has totally simplified these tasks, but it seems no one at Sun has noticed.
I think Sun thought the commercial community would come up with the same level of engineering that they had in formulating their API's, now I think they realize that that market is still open and not only is it important to compete with the well-regarded tools MS puts out, but theres $$ to be made.
Java should totally stomp
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
Now we'll have all those idiot pseudo-programmers (the VB guys) trolling around Java mailing lists because they now think they can program in a real computer language!!! :-o
[/sarcasm]
-psy
BEA is already pursuing this.
The last two versions of BEA's WebLogic Platform included WebLogic Workshop, which is a 'VB Like' tool to make developing web applications and web services much easier.
They even bought/hired a couple of ex-Microsoft guys to head the development effort.
Maybe that is why it looks so much like Visual Studio...
WebLogic Workshop
I think some people thinking about windows
have missed a good point here.
Having a visual basic like tool, but for
java, on linux would be great.
Bill Lurker
"All of our tools today ship on Windows, Linux and Solaris," said Rich Green, vice president of Java software development at Sun. "We think we should go where the developers are sitting. By midyear at JavaOne, we will have a new set of tools targeting these platforms. We are working on tools that the historic visual developers will find very attractive. They will be all written in Java.
... does this theory of mine make sense?
Ok, done Sun's way might be the same as "done right", but then doing VB "right" is still a dubious achievment.
And look the whole industry is VM hungry (when considering all the other scripting engines), with Sun's blessing. I'm not sure the herd is right on this one.
And although Java is a resounding success on the server... has it made Sun any money?
-pyrrho
A VB-like experience was the whole motivation behind the introduction of JavaBeans back in '97. A JavaBean-compliant widget was supposed to be readily usable by GUI builders, a la the VB IDE.
Heck, the marketese even claimed that a JavaBean widget could be used in VB via a COM bridge.
Of course, none of this took off because Java never really caught on in the GUI world. Sure, you find Java GUIs now and again, but its main use has been server-side components.
I can't imagine Sun is going to dramatically change the Java language. That would be suicide. I would imagine they are going to investigate technologies that are able to hide its complexity under a pretty IDE and possibly engineer a renewed push for the JavaBeans architecture as a GUI framework.
We are working on tools that the historic visual developers will find very attractive. They will be all written in Java.
I love Java on a fast machine, but most of the time I'm using a Pentium 2 with a 233MHz processor. I can't run jEdit, JBuilder or NetBeans on here because they're too damn slow!
They should write it in C/C++. Most Java applications that I've used run just fine on this "bitty box", but IDEs and text-editors slow to a crawl.
I guess what _I_ really need is JCreator to be ported to GNU/Linux.
The US Army: promoting democracy through unquestioned obedience
I think some are getting a little too excited over this. Knock MS all you want, but they do have intelligent people who put out good tools with nice features...I mean, the tool alone made VB as popular as it has become, not the VB technology itself. MS took a few pages out of Sun's book on technology, it's only fitting for Sun to take a few pages out of MS's book on tools. -Chris
I've just gotten interested in Jython, although I've been using Java and Python (separately) for quite a while. I can't believe I came to it this late. Imagine having the simplicity of an award-winning dynamically-typed yet fully object-oriented scripting language at your finger tips for busting out scripts and relatively simple code, but with complete "native" access to Java libraries. (Quotes because it seems oxymoronic to use the word "native" to refer to Java.)
It's not quite the same as VB or even JavaBean-based "programming" (using a GUI-based code generator), but if you need to glue some Java classes together and don't want to go through all of the boilerplate required by straight Java programming, it's worth checking out.
"First you gotta do the truffle shuffle."
> EJBs are BAD.
Wrong
> They're a crummy abstraction of persistence
Wrong
> they mash application logic and object representation into one place
Wrong
> they're butt-slow
Wrong
> they're a bitch to write and maintain
Wrong
> Straight JDBC is much easier to work with
Wrong
> it's [JDBC] more flexible
Correct!
1/7 Sorry Try Again
take your sig and shove it
I'd learned some Basic around 10 years ago and I was quite intimidated when I found that the only programming languages usable for Mac OS X were Java and Objective-C. Then Apple came out with AppleScript Studio, which finally enabled me to write real programs with a GUI interface.
I'm now coming back around to learn C and Objective-C, but it's AppleScript Studio that got me over the hump.
A rolling stone is worth two in the bush!
Does the world really need Yet Another RAD Tool? I can't speak fully for the Swing/Awt world, but the medium-sized Java projects I've been on was developed with textpad and apache ant.
One of the beautiful things about Java/C++/SmallTalk is that you just can't start coding in it. For most people, it takes time to learn. But when you do learn it, and learn it correctly, you'll start to think in terms of coding for the sake of the interface, instead of coding for the hell of it.
With RAD tools, it's super easy to start coding what's in your head at the time being, making up classes and methods as you go. Why not global variables? You may start out coding for a prototype. This prototype doesn't get redesigned, let alone refactored for the actual implementation ('cause hey, we already have it 50% done). Then the next thing you know, you have bloatware. Then you leave your job, and some poor schmuck has to maintain your 'code'.
I didn't fully understand why you had to do so much in Swing to do so little until I read the GOF Patterns book. Most everything in the Swing API is an abstract pattern of some sort. When you create prototypes in Swing, you can't take a lot of things for granted. You actually have to think things through. And that, you just cannot rapidly do, initially.
But when you do understand the fundamentals, prototypes can be refactored or easily redesigned to fit the implementation. Of course, this means that the software engineer that develops the prototype must have some working knowledge of the API or framework. It means that you just can't have your average "learn XXXX in 24 hours" code monkey start the software process. It means RAD is not a tool, but a way of thinking. I professionally build prototypes for projects using textpad and ant. Much of which can be extended for the actual implementation.
Im always thought more and more developers turn to linux (Unix) because of these VBesque and similar experiences?
:))
Why not continuing support for Windows for a limited time and getting strong into Linux (replacing Solaris later..) like IBM does...
But I guess Sun is (still) to big for such "childplay"..
Ahh.. all this is FUBAR...
on the OTHER side.. i was forced to listen to soo much PR speeches about the glory of JAVA that I got used to scan http://www.fuckedcompany.com daily for any satisfaction...
Yep, JAva most VB-like isn't that a kicker, after all the years of marketing hype on How JAva is "simple" language they come to this stunning realization..
Java is toast on the client side, and is only going to survive on the server thanks to the likes of IBM and such.. Sun is too busy saving its own *ss to worry about Java
Lets see how JAva plays out in the MicroDevices area.. if it dies, there you can sure bet java the number of Java programmers in the near future will be very few
And look the whole industry is VM hungry
It does seem like a fad, doesn't it. I don't get it either. Will somebody please tell me the advantage of VM's. You might as well emulate x86 on non-X86 machines if you want "binary compatible".
That guy is correct. If at all his parent is a troll.
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
...and hired all those Indians to do!
Time to boycott. Microsoft and Sun seem to think that cutting the legs out from underneath their own country is more "cost effective" - news flash - if we stopped using Sun and Microsoft and went Open Source, we American developers would be more "cost effective" too.