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Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
One of the suits already got dismissed.
If, on the other hand, Sun looses this one, then bye bye US jobs and hello nice fat contract for Sun India. Which would be even worse.
Hyperom.com
I thought one of the contingencies of hiring an H1B worker is that the employer has to prove that they cannot find a worker of equal skill in the US job market. If they US workers have the same skill set but are just more expensive then this is a violation of the H1B processes.
That being said, my wife is currently here on an H1B, and I am fairly sure that there are not many people that can do her job and I believe she is working via an H1B on all legal issues.
Not the lawsuits, but the hiring of H1B's over US Citizens. I work in a small company (no, not the one linked to in my URL) and there are maybe 15 coders in our office.
Three of them are US Citizens. I am one of them.
We will see job postings go up in our break room, and submit the resume's of people we know who need jobs, but the job listings are basically a reprint of the resume of the H1B that the company has selected. So, they have all this extraneous stuff that you wouldn't use in that job, but they are considered "job requirements" and THAT is how they can tell the INS that "We can't find an equally qualified citizen."
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't work for clients and have to travel on site, and many of our clients will ONLY want US Citizens. So, that leaves the three of us to do ALL of the travelling, even if there has been a personal tragedy in our life. (And one of us has a newborn child, so she's not travelling either...)
I guess I can look at this a few ways. A) My life is a wreck right now because I can't stay home, but B) I have insane job security, something that is a very good thing to have in today's economy.
I'd argue that the H1 program should just be *enforced*. H1Bs, as written in law, *require* the visa holder to be paid prevailing wages, and *require* something called 'Labor Certification', which supposedly proves that there are no available native workers in the local market who can perform those functions.
Fees are paid by the hiring company that supposedly pay for enforcement. However, it's clear that the Dept of Labor (that handles the labor certification process) is woefully underfunded and unskilled, and that imigration lawyers can (legally!) game the system just by writing the applications in a certain way. DoL sees language they recognise, and rubber-stamps the application because they don't have the resources to check it out.
If the legislation was properly enforced, this would be a non-issue. The H1-B laws are actually pretty good.
So what is your point? Sun operates in the US, taking advantage of the H1B, because of the security, lack of corruption, good healthcare, etc. They are deriving definite benefits from operating in the US, and clearly it is their first choice over completely moving overseas. In essence Sun is having their cake and eating it too, abusing a system that was created because of the theoretical (and completely unproven lack of talent). Note that I'm not an American, nor do I live in the US, but given the supposed reason that H1Bs exist, one would think that every single H1B technology worker would have long been sent home. Instead companies like Sun keep using it as a bargaining tool to unfairly take advantage of the little guy. Of course this will hurt them as many of us have a real distasteful impression of Sun : I wouldn't touch their products personally.
BTW: Before everyone yaps on about how the US worker had better suck it up and deal with it or they'll relocate to India, let me give you a more realistic scenario - Nothing is stopping the next Sun or Microsoft or Oracle or Intel from sprouting up as a home-grown venture in India, or wherever, given the supposed incredible talent and work ethics. Why haven't they?
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
True in part, but you can't get that by cutting taxes, somehow the government has to pay for it, so either you have to pay the appropriate taxes for this or you have to look out for yourself. Normally the people screaming about too much regulation are the ones that start screaming for the government when they want something from it. You can't have it both ways.
Why the fuck do I pay taxes? It's for services rendered. One of those services is that my government does not sell me and my community out so that one guy can have twenty-two cars, a huge home abroad and a two week vacation here.
True enough, but I am sure you were all in favour of the latest tax cuts?
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere.
Wrong, that is how companies would like to see themselves portrait but at the end of the day for them (and their shareholders) it is all about profits. Sure they like to say: "Stay out of this government, we can take care of it." But they will only do just enough to look at least halfway good.
If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
There has to be a tradeoff: You can't grow indefinetly and as such you have to give up one of your cars in order for someone else to be able to use the resources. You can easily lower your standard of living (well most people can) without really impacting your QUALITY of living.
You can fuck right off, and take your fucking multinationals with you.
If you would revert back to a time before the "globalization" and produce everything at home your standard of living would diminish even faster. The costs for the companies would be higher, the companies would look for other ways to cut corners and in the end you wouldn't be better off.
There have been studies done that show very clearly that the countries (as a whole) who profited most from Globalization are the first world countries.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
WTF, 'extremely frugally' means you don't have two cars, a huge home, a boat, & a two week overseas vacation... LOL...
I make less than $20k a year & always have in the tech industry, but it's the tech industry on the east coast (& heck it's not even really 'coastly' unless you count lake Erie). I can barely pay for a car, apartment, insurance, & food with a little extra... I have problems getting another job because the companies would like to outsource rather than hire me for a little more than I make now (maybe I could buy a house or pay back those college loans that would make it so I'd have to live in a box to pay them back atm)...
The problem isn't just in the bigger cities of the west coast, it's everywhere. They have a much lower cost of living (especially if actually in... say... India) & often even those coming here stick together, which to be honest we (the ones already in this country) don't so they can live on less...
It has nothign to do with people insisting on having "two cars, a huge home, a boat, a 2 week overseas vacation, etc", it has everythign to do with making a living in a global market we are ill prepared for as a workforce...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
H1B if enforced is actually a very good law. But we also need something which gives U.S. employees the same flexibility that H1B gives their employers. That is, if my job is exported overseas, I should have the right to follow that job and have a work visa in the target nation. Nations which export employees to the U.S. should be willing to import employees. The idea exchange which would take place would be benificial to all. You might think Americans wouldn't work in "sweatshop conditions", but working conditions can actually be better overseas. Ask a French employee how much vacation they get or how much notification is required before a layoff. The answer would make most Americans cry. Gross pay is the only benefit where American companies can compete globally, and then only companies in large U.S. cities. Vacation, flexibility, family friendliness, telecommuting and other worker right issues are better in almost every other first and second world nation. True capitalism would allow workers to flow to where they receive the best benefits to match their needs.
You're pronouncement cuts both ways. Just because companies can pick and choose between H1B's doesn't mean they won't choose a cheaper H1B resource over an American every time.
If you're putting "I require H1-B sponsorship" on your resume, you might as well print below it:
"I am aware that the visa process poses considerable paperwork and expense, so I'll be grateful for a job, I will work for considerably less than an American can afford to, and I am legally constrained from jumping to another opportunity after you've trained me, unlike those fickle Americans who bail as soon as they decide you're company sucks."
America outlawed indentured servitude with the 13th Amendment. It's time to stop pretending that a worker who can be deported at a moment's notice isn't subject to a coercive employment situation.
Here's the catch, composer777...
The H1-B didn't come about because of lassez-faire, capitalist economics. It came about because of GOVERNMENT REGULATION. The government passed a law which made it possible for companies to hire foreign workers and pay them below market wages. Because H1-B workers can't switch jobs easily, they have no leverage in negotiating salarys. In effect, this is govermnent subsidy that benefits corporations.
I would argue that the solutions is to have the government stop passing regulations and give H1-B workers the freedom to ask for a raise or leave for a better job.
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