Slashdot Mirror
Increasing Fuel Mileage With Hydrogen?
cr0sh asks: "I was recently looking into the costs and availabilty associated with small, hydrogen fuel cells (results: they are still expensive), when I came across this site about the Hydrogen-Boost [Warning: Pop-ups]. Looking at this site, it seemed like just another in the long line of scamming 'get more mileage/power' engine products out there, but it intrigued me enough to continue looking into it. I eventually came upon another site on
hydrogen experiments. A little more searching revealed this one about constructing your own Hydro-Boost device, which goes into detail about how you would build such a system. None of these sites answered the big questions, however: 'does it work?', and 'if so, how well?'. I also wanted something a little more authoritative. So, back to digging...which came up with this paper from OSTI [PDF]. The very first line of the abstract of this paper reads 'It is well known that hydrogen addition to spark-ignited (SI) engines can reduce exhaust emissions and increase efficiency.' This paper seems to advance the notion that such a system like the 'Hydrogen Boost' system may actually work. Does Slashdot think such a system would work? If so, how it could be improved, especially given today's rapidly rising gasoline prices, here in America?"
"On the experiments site, via the link to 'Hydrogen Experiments Part 2', the author references the first site. He ultimately decides to 'home-brew' his own system instead, and gives enough detail for anybody to do so. I was hoping the author had more details on the effects caused by dumping hydrogen into his engine, but that doesn't appear to be.
A notable observation on the Hydro Boost Device is that instead of using a stainless steel mesh as the other guy uses (which would seem to be a superior material to use, though difficult to find), this design uses galvanized steel bolts for the electrodes, making it something that can be built from materials found at a local building materials warehouse."
I heard that jet engines actually utilize (i.e. burn) the hydrogen in water vapor that comes through the intake. Any aviation experts out there care to confirm?
I also heard cars get a little horsepower boost from intake of highly humidified air?
Experts, please confirm or deny.
There is also that crazy VW concept car that got like, what, 190 MPG? Of course, it was only a one person car, but still. That's pretty amazing.
Have you driven a Toyota Prius? If so , do you like the Civic Hybrid better? I've heard from some people that the Civic is supposed to handle better on turns, but other than that (and the fact that it looks more like a normal car), I haven't heard much pro or con discussion between the Civic and Prius...
"A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving." -Lao Tzu
I once read a page containing a suspect method for boosting the power of a motor by adding water. I don't remember how I ran across the page, but it was full of rambling by someone who basically had no idea how chemistry works but who had done some experimenting and may have stumbled on something...
The idea basically involved mixing water and gasoline before feeding it into the engine. A surfactant was used to allow the two to misch, so the engine was never fed pure water. The experimenter also bolted a hunk of platinum to the top of the cylinder, saying the platinum would be a catalyst and would crack the water into hydrogen and oxygen, producing more energy.
Pretty funny, huh?
Well, maybe not. I sent him a letter with an alternative theory; that the added water absorbed heat and evaporated, trading heat that would otherwise be wasted for additional pressure inside the cylinder. I also postulated that the platinum chunk wasn't taking an active part in the situation, but was instead using up space inside the cylinder and increasing the compression ratio; and that a ratio that would lead to pre-detonation in a pure gasoline engine might not do so in a system that ran at lower temperatures, thanks to the water's cooling effect. I suggested running a few experiments to find out, by measuring operating temperatures with and without the water, and by bolting in a hunk of steel in place of the platinum and seeing if it made a difference. I also recommended he try a dual injection system, one for fuel and one for water, rather than try and mix them.
I did get an email message back from the page's maintainer, but I've no idea if the experimenter ever got the message. Oh well.
My Geo Metro used to get 55 MPG. I would think that hybrids should be able to get more than that.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
I drive a modified 93 mustang with about 365 horsepower, and I enjoy it. I still get 22-25mpg on the freeway which isn't bad at all for what it is. People for some reason have come to the idea that performance=lack of gas mileage which is completely untrue. Just because more air is able to get into the engine does not mean that it has to. Basically what I'm saying is that you have still have a high horsepower car and not spend more money on gas than someone with the same car and less horsepower provided you don't floor it
all of the time. My car actually gets better gas mileage than stock...
Your geo metro had about the same power engine as the Civic. The civic loses mpg because it's a much larger car than the metro was. I get my milage with an automatic transmission. The manual gets slightly better mileage(but not MUCH more, as the auto has a continuously variable transmission).
Ever heard of batteries?
Nifty devices, they store energy for quite a long time and you can use the power at any time. Like when you're waiting for the fuel cell to warm up.
And you know what? You can recharge them with the fuel cell once it's at operating temperature and if you need a quick boost of power, you can combine the outputs of the fuel cell and the battery. And another neat thing, when you dont need 100% of the fuel cell power for driving, you can divert some power to recharge the battery. You can even store the power normally lost as heat during braking in the battery. Amazing..
However, this system isn't meant to replace the gasoline fuel, but to supplement it, to increase mileage and (maybe) horsepower (I am more interested in the former, actually). I know that you can't get the same amount of energy out that you put in, and that electrolysis isn't very efficient (especially in a homebrew system). Now, that isn't the only way to generate hydrogen, either - you can create a lot of hydrogen via a water/aluminium/lye reactor, keep feeding in those ingredients for more hydrogen, and control the input to the intake with a valve...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
You are probably right about the amount needed for increasing the efficiency - still, it would be a fun thing to play with (one of those weekend time projects) - my only main concern is avoiding hydrogen gas leakage at the hose joints...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Changing from 12V to 42V will be a lot easier than moving from gasoline to something else. Look what you get for going to 42V:
That's a lot of weight removed and fuel saved. And it's all so much more attainable and immediate than fuel cells with PEM conversion or changing to pressurized tanks of hydrogen. Don't get me wrong, good practical stuff comes out of alternative fuel research. But let's not focus on pie in the sky to the exclusion of all else.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
The thing is I compared the Prius and the Civic Hybrid environmentally - the Prius is classified as a Super Ultra Low emission vehicle (SULEV), while the Civic Hybrid is simply considered a Ultra Low Emissions vehicle (ULEV).
CA has a program that supports the purchase of SULEVs, ULEVs, and Zero Emission vehicles (all-electric cars are Zero Emission vehicles, and CA has a great car charging infrastructure, form the maps I can see online.
The Prius has somewhat higher mileage (52 city/45 hiway) than the Civic Hybrid (45/51), but the gasoline Civic Sedan gets good mileage as well (38/43), so when it comes to reasons to purchase a hybrid,the issue really is the eleimination or vast reduction of emissions, not necessarily huge mileage improvement.
Diesels DO get great mileage, but have a horrific emissions problems - everyone has been behind a pretty, old Mercedes coupe to just get choked by the fumes as it pulls away from the light.
Final point: If you do decide to buy a hybrid vehicle in 2003, you can get a max. $2,000 tax incentive, but W and his Haliburton cronies have made sure this small incentive has been eliminated for the 2004 tax year.
Have you ever looked at water injection systems? Basically you spray a small amount of water into the inlet tract of the engine, carefully metered, so it breaks up into a fine mist. This vapourises as the piston compresses the charge in the cylinder, and boils into steam when the charge fires. You raise the combustion pressure and lower the combustion temperature, which increases the power produced by the engine but reduces NOx emissions. I converted an old Volvo to this a few years ago. It went like hell and was very very quiet.