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Three Judges to Review Java Ruling on Thursday

Posted by timothy on from the you-must-vs-you-ought dept.

Richard Finney writes " Reuter's Peter Kaplan is reporting that a three-judge panel in Richmond, Va. will hear arguments from Microsoft and Sun over whether it should uphold a Java 'must-carry' order imposed by a lower court judge in December. Here's a quick review of the issue: Microsoft signed an agreement with Sun on implementing Java. Microsoft implemented a non-compliant version ('embrace, extend, destroy' to their critics). Sun called them on it and as 'pushishment,' the courts said Microsoft had to carry the official Sun product for a while. Microsoft's lawyers seem to be on a winning streak lately and their spokesman Jim Dresler says the order is 'unprecedented, unnecessary and doesn't serve the public interest.' Some say this the deciding battle between Java and .NET. Too bad it's not being settled on the technical merits of both products."

29 comments

  1. Cross platform by rf0 · · Score: 1

    Java was first put out to be a cross platform. The idea was so that I could compile my bytecode on one system and run it on another without having to worry about compatibility. However a M$ shipped something which was non-comlient then this all fell apart taking they are the dominant software maker on the desktop. However to be fair to them Sun had basically said Java2 is so broken that some bugs will never be fixed

    Rus

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    1. Re:Cross platform by kzeddy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > However to be fair to them Sun had basically >said Java2 is so broken that some bugs will >never be fixed
      What is broken about Java2?

    2. Re:Cross platform by sporty · · Score: 1

      What about perl? or fortran?

      I'm not trying to be a wise ass, but i remember seeing perl work on windows before java. But that's my memory.

      --

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      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    3. Re:Cross platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What ISN'T broken about Java 2?

      Where would you like to begin? Sun's Java implementation? Sun even thinks it's shit. And, believe me, THEY'RE RIGHT!

      Perhaps the language itself? It inherits all of the OLD problems of Java 1.x. If you want a good summary of problems with Java 1.x, I would check here and here.

      The standard library? Borked! Check the above links for yet more fun and excitement. And they don't even BEGIN to cover JavaBeans, JINI, SWING, AWT, and the like!

      How about Java 2's cross-platform compatibility? Bzzzt! Java has about as much cross-platform compatibility as assembly code. Each JRE platform has a host of bugs that must be addressed BY THE JAVA CODE. Not to mention, every JVM out there is totally incompatible with every other JVM (yet, amazingly, still compliant with Sun's "standards").

      Please. Java is borked beyond all human recognition. Maybe Sun should spend a little more time making a JVM that works than forcing Microsoft to add MORE bloated shit to Windows.

    4. Re:Cross platform by gbjbaanb · · Score: 2, Informative

      non-compliant menas (accoridng to Sun) 'better than ours'. Nothing MS did broke your java apps running on windows.

      Sure they did add features, but you were quite free not to use them, or to use them and say 'my app only runs on windows'. Frankly, what's the problem there, you could write your app using JNI to integrate with some Windows-only component. It wouldn't be cross-platform anymore but would be still compliant.

      If Sun had actually sent Java off to become a standard, instead of pretending to, and MS has broken the standard then they'd be the bad boys here, but as it stands, I don't think Sun has anything but legal cr*p on their side.

    5. Re:Cross platform by dup_account · · Score: 1

      And then they froze the Java on their platform... Means you either had to code to 1.x or make the user download Java 2...

      I think that "If Sun would just standardize java" agrument is horse s__t. The second they did that MS would be in there trying to bastardize the standard. After all, they signed a contract that said they would maintain the (Sun's published) standard, and then went and ignored it. So you think that they would not try to use a standard committee to their advantage and everyone else's dis-advantage. Or just ignore the standard some more.

      I think that if Sun is really letting their community process work, this, to me is as good as a official standard.

    6. Re:Cross platform by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      as I understood it, it was Sun that licenced only java 1.1 to MS, back in the early days. Then they refused to licence the later versions. Hence, MS had no choice - they couldn't legally develop or deploy the latest Java. Don't forget when MS had .NET and stopped bundling java, there was an outcry.

      I think Sun thought they were striking a blow against MS, but just shot themselves in the foot.

      Standards mean that there exists a minimum that is guaranteed to work. If a vendor wants to extend it, fine (some extensions make it back into later standards), and you're free to use those extensions or not, but the base is level with a standard. As things go today, without a standard, Sun can deprecate as much of your code as it wants.

    7. Re:Cross platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... but you conveniently forget to mention that:

      (a) When no one was supporting Java because it was too slow, Microsoft developed the JIT that gave Java the speed boost it needed to gain ground.

      (b) SUN are the ones who sued in order to limit Microsoft from developing newer versions of their JVM. SUN then realised this wasn't working the way they had hoped so they sued to force Microsoft to start shipping it again.

      Basically, Java has survived in SPITE of SUN. SUN have tried time and time and time and time again to get Java on the client-side when it's been made clear that no one wants it there because barring the Mac, Java apps don't look or feel the way a native app looks unless you put in a significant amount of work. If Java is to survive the best thing that could happen is for SUN to go under and IBM to take over Java development.

      That being said... between SUN's incompetence and .NET, Java's days are probably numbered, and I say that as a professional developer who uses both.

    8. Re:Cross platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct.

      There are a number of things that come into play here...

      (a) SUN has always had a hard-on for Java on the client-side in spite of the fact that it's failed miserably every time they've tried (total is about 5 different rounds now)

      (b) Java on the client is total crap. Java apps don't look or feel like native apps, no matter how hard you try - there's always SOMETHING that tips you off it's not native. Microsoft's solution to this was the native extensions they added. A pure Java program still ran on Microsoft's JVM but you could also use the Microsoft extensions knowing that you were giving up cross-platform.

      (c) Cross platform is a JOKE. Any sufficiently sophisticated app (and I'm not talking about some pathetic hobbyist creation here - I'm talking large scale enterprise deployment) at some point needs to hook in to native code. At that point you are no longer cross platform. "Write Once Run Anywhere" degrades into "Write Once Debug Everywhere."

      (d) SUN were threatened by the superior performance of Microsoft's JVM and decided to try and stymie Microsoft by preventing them from licensing anything above 1.1.4. Microsoft's response was to wipe their hands of Java and develop their own Java-like framework , .NET and C#, arguably the language meant to fully leverage the power of .NET.

      (e) SUN realise that the money STILL isn't pouring into their coffers in spite of "sticking it" to Microsoft but they STILL haven't figured out it's due to their own incompetence. Their solution? Sue to force Microsoft to start shipping Java again!

      This it total nonsense. This is like Ford saying that Dodge trucks are cutting into their small car business so they ask the courts to force people to buy a small Ford car every time someone decides to buy a Dodge truck. It's total nonsense and only a company clearly led by the inept would choose such a lazy way to make a buck.

      *IF* Java survives (and my prediction is that it will be little but a fond memory in 4 years time) it will be in SPITE of SUN and more likely because SUN have gone under and Java has been taken over by someone else (probably IBM).

      My prediction, here and now, is that over the next four years you'll see Java slowly begine to wane in popularity while .NET gains. SUN will surely try a couple of more attempts to get Java on the client and they'll continue to launch more law-suits as it becomes clear they are dying. .NET will become prominent, Java may survive as a .NET language and MONO will become popular on Linux. The framework going forward will be .NET

      Java is dead because of SUN.

    9. Re:Cross platform by usotsuki · · Score: 1

      UCSD Pascal! And if you can't run it native, download Dapple ][ and run it on an Apple //e emulator.

      Nothing new here, move along.

      -uso.

      --
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  2. This is a civil suit, not a technical suit. by bmetzler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And don't forget, no matter what happens to Java and .Net, civil suits have never been settled on technical notes.

    -Brent

  3. uhm by Iamthefallen · · Score: 3, Interesting
    "Too bad it's not being settled on the technical merits of both products."

    When was the last time anything was settled on technical merits and thereby gained widespread adoption? Zealots from both sides usually state their case and fanatically defend their position while the rest of us pick what we feel more comfortable with. Unbiased technical merit rarely gets attention, and even more rare is that it is the deciding factor when faced with a choice.

    --
    Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
  4. wouldn't this story have been more useful on thurs by t · · Score: 1

    after the ruling? Right now it's beyond useless and will surely fill up with the usual useless rants.

  5. Predictions by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 1

    Here's a prediction: MS will not be required to carry Java. Here's another: .NET will obliterate Java in almost all environments in the US (the 95% of the market that uses Windows) in a year or less. The "battle" was over when Bush was "elected" and told the DoJ to let MS off the hook.

    1. Re:Predictions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I somewhat agree with that, but I give Java about 4 years of gradually diminishing life.

    2. Re:Predictions by sproketboy · · Score: 1

      Naw. Fact is as long as IBM and Oracle support Java, it will be around and they'll keep supporting it because they don't want M$ encroaching on their turf (big systems). My 2 cents.

  6. Define "Technical" by 4of12 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Too bad it's not being settled on the technical merits of both products."

    Certainly there's money involved in the decision or else it wouldn't be in the courts.

    But even a "technical" evaluation for complex software products involves many aspects which are subjective and depend on the users.

    Exhibit A: Is Perl or Python better? The answer depends on the application and the reviewer. Likewise "Tastes great. Less filling."

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
    1. Re:Define "Technical" by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's really too bad is that the issue isn't being settled on the moral merits. Microsoft agreed to support Java while the DoJ case regarding Netscape was still alive for the PR value: "see, we're playing nicely with a competitor" and hopefully distracting people from the near daily testimony about the illegal methods [1] it used to destroy Netscape -- how it really plays with competitors. Microsoft has since used every legal and disputedly illegal means to avoid honoring the Java agreement, becoming bolder in its methods as the DoJ case dies [2]. The judge in the Java case was quite certain of his findings [3] and the remedy he proposed was extremely lenient given the damage Microsoft's behavior had on the cross platform viability and hence success of Java. Microsoft should not be able to escape this token punishment by appealing it until it wins.

      1. Jackson's Findings of Fact stands, only his remedy was overturned.
      2. First came the incompatible extensions and IDEs, then conflicting implementations, and lastly not shipping a JVM at all now that the DoJ case is circling the drain.
      3. Unlike Jackson, however, he kept his outrage in check. Doesn't seem to have made that much difference.

  7. Not Cross-Platform? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    How about Java 2's cross-platform compatibility? Bzzzt! Java has about as much cross-platform compatibility as assembly code. Each JRE platform has a host of bugs that must be addressed BY THE JAVA CODE. Not to mention, every JVM out there is totally incompatible with every other JVM (yet, amazingly, still compliant with Sun's "standards").

    That is funny, because I have never had any problems moving my Java bytecode between competing JVMs. Sun, IBM, Blackdown, and others. I have found Java to be perfectly cross-platform between various JVMs.

    1. Re:Not Cross-Platform? by nathanh · · Score: 1
      Sun even thinks it's shit. [internalmemos.com] And, believe me, THEY'RE RIGHT!

      There's a difference between a single employee of a large company and the official position from Sun.

      If you want a good summary of problems with Java 1.x, I would check here [peterbecker.de] and here [jwz.org].

      JWZ rants about everything. About all you can prove with a link to JWZ.org is that you've found someone with an opinion on everything.

      Maybe Sun should spend a little more time making a JVM that works than forcing Microsoft to add MORE bloated shit to Windows.

      Maybe Microsoft shouldn't have signed a contract that they had no intention of honouring.

    2. Re:Not Cross-Platform? by deanj · · Score: 1

      Agreed about JWZ...

      The implementation of Java on Netscape when it came out was so slow and broken it was ridiculous. The appletviewer or HotJava ran programs faster than Netscape did.

  8. A funny detail by quintessent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Microsoft and Sun originally settled for $25 million, the maximum allowed under the contract. As part of the agreement, Microsoft agreed to stop shipping its Java VM in within a few years.

    XP was shipped, and Microsoft decided to fulfill its promise much earlier.

    Sun got mad.

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  9. Java VM by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 0

    I installed Java's shitty VM and I had to uninstall it because it made my internet browser into a dog. It slows down everything. Microsoft's version is fast and lean. Sorry, but I don't want the court system to rule that I have to use Java's.

    1. Re:Java VM by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 1

      Gee, you mean a competitor's product that has to use the public interfaces to Windows performs poorly compared to Microsoft's version with private hooks into the operating system? Wow, never heard of that before. Of course, Microsoft's "Java" VM doesn't support _Java_, but you can't have everything.

    2. Re:Java VM by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 1

      Yet another rabid open sourcenik making unfounded allegations. Hint: What matters isn't the philosophy of the programmers, it's the results. And Microsoft's results kick Java's ass here.

    3. Re:Java VM by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 1

      It's quite well documented. See the books "Undocumented DOS", "Undocumented Windows", as well as the findings of the anti-trust trial. See also this to know why it probably isn't quite as well documented as it used to be.

  10. Re:wouldn't this story have been more useful on th by MeanMF · · Score: 1

    I submitted an article yesterday that commented on the ruling, but it was rejected. Basically, Sun got their asses handed to them by at least one of the judges. Here's the article.

  11. Re:wouldn't this story have been more useful on th by MeanMF · · Score: 1

    I submitted an article yesterday that commented on the ruling

    Oops, not the ruling - the oral arguments! The ruling will come at a later date.