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Interview with Jay Michaelson of Wasabi Systems
Gentu writes "The main commercial company behind NetBSD is Wasabi Systems. The company has contributed advances and big chunks of code to the open source project, while they do offer a boxed release of NetBSD. However, their main business for the company is the embedded market and NetBSD is marketed as an embedded OS. OSNews talked to the Vice President of Wasabi Systems, Jay Michaelson. Linux in the embedded market is also discussed."
Was this company formed before or after the Budweiser "True" commercials?
...but Someone's gotta say it.
:-)
Wasssaaaaaaabiiiiii!
Okay, I'm done
Please help metamoderate.
The new Internet TV consortium should use NetBSD. It sounds really cool!
Jay Michaelson:
Virtex-II pro is an FPGA so you can't really "port to it" - though the catch is that they comes with IBM's powerPC cores embedded. Why would he mention that he ported to Virtex-II pro instead of just PowerPC architecture?
and btw, it's kind of silly to name your company after horse-radish, especially done AFTER the budwiser commercials came out (the company was founded in 2000). Well, at least it's not named after certain rich person's (lack of) manhood, so I stay thankful for that...
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Since the first three posts (not by me, I hasten to add) were all modded down to -1 in less than a minute, I'll try to post something more worthwhile.
Wasabi Systems offers three main components:
Maguro
This is their embedded kernel, using a customized NetBSD kernel with extensions designed to allow better low-power operation and lower latency for real-time applications.
Uni
This is a custom, proprietary API supplied by Wasabi Systems that provides a variety of functionality for embedded systems, including interfacing with FieldNet devices such as the Kohada2010F and Tako ABV modules.
Ika
This is another proprietary API layer from Wasabi, which allows the use of WinCE applications on their systems without recompiling, thanks to a branch of the WINE project (called SAKE) that adds compatible system calls for over 95% of WinCE library routines.
It's a wonderful company run by a bunch of great guys - I wish them all the best.
Uh oh. Jay Michaelson goes on to quote the GPL "that the GPL requires hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of IP to be shared, and they don't like it. It's a real concern in embedded." I can hear zealots complaining that software needs to be free, etc.
Honestly though, the BSD license does offer a great reward to users. Companies can offer back to the community and are given a choice. GPL take s the choice away from vendors. Although who knows what gets put into the code unless it's released to all.
I really hate Dan Patrick.
1. NetBSD is the OS of choice at Wasabi Systems. How is the embedded version of NetBSD stacks up in performance when compared to VXWorks, Embedded Linux, QNX, WindowsCE and others?
Jay Michaelson: Wasabi Certified NetBSD is far more adaptable, powerful, and affordable than VxWorks. It is easy to port to new hardware, has a much more powerful networking stack (we know of VxWorks users who have ripped out their TCP stack and plugged in NetBSD's.), and is free from Wind River's cumbersome fees. Moreover, with Wasabi certification and testing, Wasabi NetBSD is guaranteed just like other commercial operating systems.
Regarding Linux, the two main differentiators are portability and licensing. NetBSD, due to its modular portability layer, can be ported much faster than Linux; three weeks compared with three months in some cases. In addition, NetBSD is free of the GPL, which scares many companies because it requires that all changes to the kernel be made open source. With NetBSD, there are no such requirements.
WinCE offers good application support, but the footprint is large and the reliability not up to par. QNX is a good OS but has lacked the penetration and support to really make a mark. OEMs want operating systems that their engineers can use, and providing a POSIX API and Unix environment make that possible.
2. NetBSD is a full blown Unix. Does it actually scale down as well as it scales up? What are the minimum specs that NetBSD can run and operate on?
Jay Michaelson: We can get a usable kernel in under 1 Meg. As is well known, NetBSD can run on just about anything -- there are still some consultants making a living off of VAX support. We've yet to see a commercial application where NetBSD has not been able to scale down adequately.
3. Up to now, where are your partners/clients are mostly lean to: Keeping their version of NetBSD closed or opening their modified sources? How do you see the embedded market/community reacting on open source?
Jay Michaelson: Customers have varied. One recent deal required that the code be kept secret for six months and then released -- this is, in a way, the best of both worlds, because it will eventually be supported by the open source community, but in the meantime the customer gets the competitive advantage. Other customers want immediate release; they want to be integrated into the NetBSD source tree right away. And still others commit the basic port but keep some of the bells and whistles private. Wasabi itself has created suites of products and add-ons to NetBSD that are our intellectual property, and which we license to customers.
I think there is real, and justified, concern about the GPL. We're now past the initial phase, when FUD from various sources confused the issue. People now understand that you're not risking your company security by running Linux on your servers. But at the same time, most of our customers are quite aware that the GPL requires hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of IP to be shared, and they don't like it. It's a real concern in embedded.
4. What is your opinion on embedded Linux? Can it become as popular and successful as it is today in server space?
Jay Michaelson: The license gets in the way. You're not changing the kernel in the server space, and Linux runs well, and of course it is widely supported. So the GPL is not an issue. In embedded, the GPL is always an issue. There are so many uncertainties, and such high costs, that the GPL really has hamstrung Linux's advance in embedded. Add to that the portability gap between Linux on the one hand and NetBSD on the other. If you can get Unix functional
Maguro, Uni, Kohada, Tako, Sake...man, this story is making me hungry! ^_^
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
In the interview they said that NetBSD can scale but does anyone have a comparision between says the locks in the linux kernel and the NetBSD kernel? I'm just intrested in how high they can both scale. I know that Linux is now running upto 64 CPU's in the shape of the SGI Altix but I have no idea how far NetBSD goes
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
Don't forget the samurai daemon!
:)
Who needs a fat penguin or a yellow fish? This is the best mascot ever
Prescriptive grammar:linguistics
Up until recently, none of the BSDs supported SMP or any advanced feature of Linux. FreeBSD does have decent support for SMP now, but none of the other BSDs do. Apparently, BSD is for the little workstations, and Linux is for the big iron that actually serves content.
I hear FreeBSD actually managed to port to another architecture, too. Good for them. Maybe now they can port to an architecture that's not dead (RIP DEC and RIP Alpha... sigh).
BSD is good for single processor machines that don't need to be doing much but running KDE or Mozilla. Don't expect them to support NUMA, hotswap PCI, big iron, or commercial apps like Oracle any time soon.
I hope that BSD can catch up to Linux sometime soon, though. It looks like an interesting little project.
WOW. Is BSD on the desktop really dead, like they say here? I thought that some people were still using it. Isn't Mac OS X based on Linux or BSD? I forget. But if it's based on BSD, then that would mean that it's not dead. I sure hope it's not dead, at least.
Maybe all those Slashdot trolls were right!
So, are you going to devote your talents to another project, e.g. Linux? Not trying to troll here - I just think it'd be a waste not to.
Wrong! I think FreeBSD has had SMP support even longer than Linux, alas it was for DEC Alpha only way back in the begining of the project.
Most Linux user make fun of GIANT, but in reality it's not much of an issue, as the system shouldn't spend time in the kernel (as it does in Linux) but actually run userland stuff, so, GIANT isn't that much of an issue on 8 or less CPU's.
NetBSD (and BSD in general) is BIG is Japan, settop boxes are a big market, but routers and everything in between is also common.
He's probably the last person on Slashdot that needs lip about Japan. Did you miss the sig?
...I thought this article had something to do with WinAmp.
Hardware supported by NETBSD
one person was the author of this whole thread of AC posts, and I, was that one author, I assure you.
GIANT still doesn't make it a good SMP design. Even Linux has a better design when it comes to SMP ;-).
Does NetBSD support multiple processors?
Yes, for several years now. Initially it relied on one big kernel lock, just like pre 2.4 Linux did, but it's moving to finer grained locking. The great thing is NetBSD's dedication to portability, and it runs on MP i386, SPARC, Alpha, and Vax(!) systems that I'm aware of.
For the lowdown, see: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-smp/
Chris
wasn't this posted in a story about two weeks ago?
that quote should be relegated to those oh so hilarious chain emails
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
1) Small
2) Powerfull
3) Unix
Its "j00 1337"
You have some proof of "moving to finer grained locking"... The way I see it there is work to do to make SMP really stable and also make it work with the threads library that just appeared. Who is working on those finer grains when there is more important stuff to do... Ofcourse, open source developers can do what they want when they want!
Yeah I think that MacOS X is based on Linux. It uses GPL.
You have some proof of "moving to finer grained locking"
I assume that was a question or accusation rather than a simple statement. Well, the proof is on the tech-smp mailing list where Paul Kranenburg and Frank van der Linden have both posted recent commments on locking improvements. Some subsystems are still not guaranteed to be OK with these finer grained locks, but the fact that testing is being carried out by switching the BKL off entirely is encouraging.
As for open source developers doing things at the their own pace and priority, I get the impression that Frank van der Linden is working to some sort of Wasabi schedule. Not that it means we'll see enterprise class SMP in a stable NetBSD release anytime soon, but it suggests someone is being paid to expend a fair proportion of their time on it.
Chris
After reading it, I get the feeling this wasn't really so much an interview, more a commercial plug masquerading as an interview. We found out very little except that NetBSD can apparently be ported very easily, and Wasabi apparently has a variety of clients and products.
Maybe for the next interview they'll pick someone who can talk about some actual details. Might be more interesting.
NetBSD supports SMP for i386, sparc, and alpha, and perhaps some other architectures. It's not in the -release yet though, and isn't yet at the level of fine grained SMP of FreeBSD 5.0
and on a offtopic note. FreeBSD 4.8 is out RELEASE document. Go get it.
my sig
The best way I've found to make a Japanese waiter crack up is to loudly ask for a mawashi to go with your sashimi. It's a sumo wrestler's jock-strap. Not quite the same thing as wasabi, but it might make your eyes water all the same :-)
you left out:
4) ?
5) Profit!
-- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
WASABI ROCKS, DUDES!! THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES HOO HAD TH ESTONES TO SHITCAN THEO "I'M A FAG" DE RAADT! GOOOOO WASABI!!!!
;wke riyp a8isyui iyp ;ijioyp kj iy kj iopy uiypu ipy
Lameness something encountered: It's like YELLING
adkfaj iopupiu kjl;j kupyi yi j zx ui yuahjk;we yp
j;kup iopyu kj iopuy kjasd fuiopy
Netcraft seems to have a bit of a positive view toward BSD
Mister Michaelson states in the article /then/ diss it, but do try to broaden your perspective, so that if one insists on pro/contra biggotry in every linux/bsd thread, it's at least informed biggotry :)
"NetBSD is free of the GPL, which scares many companies because it requires that all
changes to the kernel be made open source. With NetBSD, there are no such requirements."
But neither are there for i.e. linux. Additions to the source can be kept undisclosed under GPL, as long as it is for in-house use. I don't think it's a deliberate fault, since his bussiness mainly seems to be about embedded distributors, and therefore it would not qualify as in-house usage. But if you would like to mix GPL'ed code with proprietary code, yet not redistribute it in binary form, it's perfectly fine with the GPL.
I thought this posting might be needed to dismantle a possible misconception about the so-called "viral properties".
As a last moral note, if you're running Linux, you might want to run a BSD on your old computer, and if you're running BSD, do the same for linux. If you still don't like it
YHBT by your government. This war is a criminal act and in no way necessary. the weapons inspections were working and Iraq has obviously been mostly disarmed through international effort. You simply don't want to believe your government was wrong.
Like the best April Fool's jokes which were so conspicuously absent this year. Somewhat believable unless read VERY closely.
Who knows, geeks who name their company after horseradish may just be so obsessed that they name all their API's and products after sushi ingredients.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
I've been on the crypto list for a while, and there are some damn intelligent conversations on there. The s/n ration is superb (moderated lists help ;), and I can get some nice useful technical info.
I am _so_ sorry this is offtopic, and please to fuck yourself
my sig
The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. The hope is gone; a mournful nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.
Q: What did sushi A say to sushi B?
A: Wasabi
Truly fantastic.