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Ender's Game Influences US Army Training
PortWineBoy writes "Although we've been bombarded in the last few weeks with techno tales of the U.S. Army, I found this
story in the NY Times (FRRYYY) to be quite interesting. The director of the Army's simulation technology center said that Ender's game influenced how and what they will build for future training." Begin Mazer Rackham Analogies...
Ender spend the rest of his life paying for his evils......
What parts were they emulating?
"Hardly used" will not fetch you a better price for your brain.
Not another stroke to Orson Scott Card's ego! If you've ever heard him speak you know what I mean...
Your statement about the British view of war versus the American view of war reminded me why Americans kick butt and why the British are only so-so.
See, Americans go into war with one objective: to win. They bring bigger guns, better trained forces, and strategies that will ensure complete and total victory with a minimum of casualties. The interaction with the people is more of an afterthought. After all, if you can't win, it doesn't matter how well you interact with the local populace.
The British treat it like it is a damn dress-up game. I've even heard that they take off their helmets and put on those ridiculous berets when they enter a city. They say it is to show respect. I think it is to do the Americans a favor and draw out the snipers. Sure, they may interact better with the people, but dead people aren't as nice as live ones.
And the British can joke about the Americans all they want. They came all dressed up in uniforms and organized neatly not too long ago. A bunch of farmers kicked them out for good. I don't think those farmers knew the first thing about manners, but you know what, it was only their skill with the musket that mattered.
And your silly comment about war not being a video game just isn't true anymore. Most of the killing and destruction is done from miles away in the cockpit of a jet fighter, from the cabin of a tank, or on board a missile carrier. It sure seems like a video game from that range.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
heck, rather than worry about the submitters, why can't the editors just do this???
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
and rob the karma whores of low hanging fruit! You cruel cruel man ;)
Seriously, I think they might eventually piss of the nytimes if they did that. Free Reg to the paper of record isn't really such an evil thing, btw, imnsho, ymmv, ald fa;bb b.
-pyrrho
Yes, but the point was that Ender did not know that. He thought he was training on a simulation. The situations they put him in kept getting harder and harder until they reached the homeworld of the "buggers" where the odds became impossible and so he just blew up the planet. He thought he was being tested and he was angry that they would give him such an impossible task, so he completed it the only way possible, by killing everyone, including his own men.
It worked, but the point was that Ender wouldn't have done it if he knew it was real.
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The internet is the greatest source of biased information in the history of mankind.
You have grown so complacent in your lifestyles, you have so lost touch of 'reality' (oh the irony of your reality TV), that you have elevated even warfare to the status of competition.
The original poster's point wasn't that British troops are sissy's and have better tea time manners, it was that the US troops have become the newest form of "GI Joe" toys that you can buy shrink wrapped at a Toys'r'us.
War isn't that... War is dirty. War is evil. It's going to the very edge of humanity and looking into the abyss. You people think you can handle it all because you're the best trained, best equiped... You aren't worth squat...
If you want to somehow pride yourself in warfare, you should go and bow to the ground in front of the people you call "camel jockey's"... These people, terrorists, are the shit... they are people who've carried and used Kalashnikovs out of necessity, not boredom, from when they were 12.
You should go see people who've lived their entire lives with the constant threat of sniper fire in Sarajevo... kids in their early teens.
You should go see african children, 8 year old children, who hack down an old man crossing the street with a machete just to grab a journalist's attention...
To come back to your striving ideology, you might think putting money into your national soccer team is gonna make you good, but the reality is that kids like Maradona grow up in slums in Brazil having nothing else in their lives... that is why they are so good... not because they bought it.
As if there ever was a question whether the Iraq could stand up to the United States militarily. Not even the Iraqi government claimed any chance to defend the country indefinitely.
The US might well sport the most dominant military force in all history, but the fact that you can - surprise, surprise - bomb the hell out of a repressed, deprived and embargo'ed third wirld country certainly doesn't entail that you can do the same to other countries. The goal should not be to "free" Iraq, if anything the goal should be to "free" Iraq with certain other premises: few to no civilian casualties, low to no damage to civilian infrastructure, effective ways to bring in humanitary aid, a smooth transition to a just post-war system.
Also, the United States have bought what you call the most dominant military force at a time when a dominant military force has lost many of its uses: you can't (and don't need to) conquer the world with it, and you can't even defend American citizens with it - an army is no use against domestic terrorism.
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
"It worked, but the point was that Ender wouldn't have done it if he knew it was real."
Actually that was one of the points of the book. Another key point is that the child soldiers were used by the adult soldiers to perform an action that the adult soldiers were unable or unwilling to perform.
"You had to be a weapon, Ender. Like a gun, like the Little Doctor, functioning perfectly but not knowing what you were aimed at. We aimed you. We're responsible. If there was something wrong, we did it." Ender's Game Page 298
Fan's of Ender's Game may want to check out Orson Scott Card's web site Hatrack River.
War isn't that... War is dirty. War is evil.
War is not evil. War can be waged for liberty, self-defense or to stop a genocide.
War is a tool, a nasty sharp tool. It's what you use it for that make your endevor evil or, perhaps, good.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Oh, yeah, we went to Japan, and said "If you don't start wearing blue jeans and eating hamburgers, we're going to murder your children and rape your wives!" We went to Germany and said, "Because you stupid Krauts lost, we are going to torture you with shopping malls and action movies!" And we turned around to China and say, "Soon, your daughters will be our slaves because we will conquer you with the might of our FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS!"
Or did we just luck out with Japan? I guess we also lucked out with Korea, Taiwan, Germany, Italy, the UK, France, Spain, Eastern Europe, Russia, and far more countries you will never know about. I guess we are still lucking out with Vietnam, China, Afghanistan, Iraq, and yes, even Cuba. I guess our policies of "kill the bad guys, let the others vote, and leave unless they want you to stay" just doesn't work, does it?
What could be more tactful than that? We see a dictator, building up weapons that can harm us. We realize that there won't be a peaceful resolution to this, so we're going to have to disarm him forcefully. Sooner is better than later because if we wait too long, he might actually get the weapons that can really hurt us. And while we're at it, it's not a bad idea to upset the entire history of the country by setting the people free and letting them create their own government. So we go in, and ruin thousands of years of culture by banishing slavery, "murdering" treacherous people who oppose freedom, and encouraging people to think about their own future rather than place it in the hands of a dictator. When things become stable, we slowly pull out, and let the government, elected by the people, take over. We get a more peaceful world, they get a peaceful government, and everyone is happy. But at what cost? I can't see any negative effects, other than the disruption of their culture as they move away from being slaves who live in hovels into full-fledged equal citizens in their country.
Now there is one more intersting point. Why do McDonalds and Burger Kings and shopping malls dot the landscape of Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, UK, France, Germany, and any country that is free? Why do they wear blue jeans, drive big cars that produce that dangerous chemical CO2, and try to earn as much money as they can?
The answer: It is not because we force them to adopt it. It is because it is actually a better way of living than anything else. We seem to like it, because we choose to live in it. They seem to like it because they adopt it. Nobody is forcing anyone here. They do it because they want to.
Our "empire", if you could call it that, is an empire of FREEDOM. We give people freedom, knowing that it will only make us and them more powerful, rich, and happy.
Our founding fathers saw the day when people would come to us and ask us to set up their governments. Our founding fathers knew that we would be a "shining city on a hill". Now that we are, are you complaining because everyone in the world wants what we have, and we are more than willing to share it with them? Are you complaining because they are richer and happier and freeer than they ever have been since the beginning of their history?
Or are you complaining because freedom really does work, even for poor peasants and backwards countries like Japan once was? Are you really complaining because your "ideals" (ie, communism or socialism) are really a horrible nightmarish world, where no one is safe, and no one is rich, and freedom is the only answer to cure all of the world's ills?
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
Ender's game had brilliant military strategies.
I really don't mean to be an ass, but the principles represented by Ender's tactics were the military equivalent of nine o'clock, day one. Surprise, initiative, misdirection... these are not complicated or revolutionary ideas. The very first thing you learn when you study tactics is to figure out what the enemy expects, and then to do the opposite. Even taking into account the fact that the enemy knows you're going to do that, and is anticipating it.
It's not some big insight that comes with genius or years of experience; it's the first thing you learn. Well, the second thing. The first thing is always to wear clean socks.
I'm not trying to put you down or anything like that. I just want to make sure you don't read Ender's Game and come away thinking you've learned something about military tactics.
I write in my journal
Don't be so naieve. All these things may be immoral, and in violation of the "rules of war", but, rightly or wrongly, these people think they are fighting for their very survival, and the survival of their home. Whats right and wrong goes straight out of the window at that point.
If you're fighting for something you love (Not necessarily your leader, but your home, or your country) against a superior force, you do anything. Suicide bombers, chemical weapons, torturing POWs, anything you think might give you a chance.
That's why it's so bloody dangerous to back people into a corner. When they've got nothing to lose, they can throw it all against you.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
Also, the whole book is basicaly about child abuse sponsored by the governemnt. Interesting reading, but maybe not the ideal way to create well-adjusted officers.
My Lord, have you even read the book? Card was getting at the disconnect that people have about children. If you listen to the people today, children need to be wrapped up in bubblewrap so they don't hurt their little selves. In reality, many children are smart, shrewder, and wiser than many so called adults in the world.
Ender was by far the most intelligent and compassionate character in the book. But right behind him was Graff. Graff KNEW that he was screwing with these kids. He did it, not because he got off on the abuse, but to create a future for the whole world. This is why he keeps it from Ender until AFTER he wins. And attempts to keep him from viewing the trial, where he knows the death of the other students will come out. He doesn't want to hurt Ender, but he has no choice.
Come to think of it, that seems like a couple of drill instructors I know. It's not that they hate the kids brought in to be turned into new soldiers, it's just that by "abusing" them, they can shake out some of those who will be a liability on the battlefield not just for the Armed Forces, but also for themselves.
But anyway, he used children for this story to show many things, one of which is the depth that exceptional children have, and the problems that they encounter in their lives by people not willing to believe that children can be adults.
- No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades really cramps his style.
The thing I find most interesting about this discussion is the way people keep referencing the novel as if it really happened. Almost as if it were a story from our history instead of a work of fiction by an extremely creative mind.
I read a few pages of Ender's Game everyday at work. It's one of only a small handful of non-technical books I keep on my desk. It's a very worn paperback copy, and it rests between my two copies of Paradise Lost and my well-worn copy of Christopher Marlowe's Dr. Faustus. I've probably finished the book 10 or 12 times in the past four years. And I think I know the reason we keep referring to the story as if it were fact.
Ender is a geek. He's bright and talented to the point where the only way people in competition with Ender can hope to succeed is by bringing him down. I know we've all read story after story and post after post about how difficult it is to grow up exceptional. (Remember the post-Columbine stories?) We don't simply relate to Ender. We aren't simply empathizing with him. Ender is us, and we are him.
Now that I've said all of that: It's cool that Mr. Card wrote a book that tells some of the truth about leadership and building a team. It's neat that he got it so right. But let us not forget that it is a work of fiction, and it worked out for Ender because that's the way the author wanted it to. Just because it worked in the story doesn't mean that it'll work in reality. We should glean what we can from Orson Scott Card's insight into human nature, but I can't imagine using any work of fiction as a training manual.
Ender's emotions and reations are real to me. I relate to his experience in some way. But we can't lose sight of the fact that Ender's actions and successes were part of a plot in a work of fiction. Any similarity between the fictional environment of the Battle School and reality is a testament to the imagination of the author, and not a sign that this book should be taken as Gospel.
This space for rent.
The goal should not be to "free" Iraq, if anything the goal should be to "free" Iraq with certain other premises: few to no civilian casualties, low to no damage to civilian infrastructure, effective ways to bring in humanitary aid, a smooth transition to a just post-war system.
yep. in progress.
Also, the United States have bought what you call the most dominant military force at a time when a dominant military force has lost many of its uses: you can't (and don't need to) conquer the world with it, and you can't even defend American citizens with it - an army is no use against domestic terrorism.
how about making the world a safer, better place (exactly what its being used for now)?
a completely dominant military force does everything better than a weaker military force:
- wins wars faster
- takes less casualties
- causes less civilian casualties
- inflicts less enemy casualties since they surrender faster
it would be irresponsible for a country to have the most successful social and economic system in the history of the world and NOT buy the greatest military in the history of the world too.
Those who plan their wars based on Ender's Game are doomed to fight wars based on Dune.
The SPICE, er, OIL must flow!
Actually, Ender's strategic advantage was his compassion. He understood his enemies so fully that he loved them deeply, since he could see their motivations for attacking him. He is always at odds with the case. The reason why Ender did what he did was because he thought it was a game, if he knew it wasn't a game, he would not have gone through with it. He spends the rest of the series dealing with that guilt.
I joined the Navy in '92 (left in 96) and worked on a destroyer as an Electonic Warfare technician. Sitting on watch staring at a SLQ-32 console often had me thinking I was playing a video game. A big part of the job was figuring out who was who. The first "long" cruise we went on (only two weeks - heh) standing 12 hours of watch a day, working for 6 more hours, and getting 4 hours of sleep a night warped my thinking in that I was no longer figuring out who the ships were on my scope, I felt I was creating them! I'd pick up a signal, build a track, decide who it was, and viola, there it was! These ships were nothing but signals and icons to me.
Getting off the ship in San Diego was a huge wake up call... I had been "creating" the USS Rubin James, USS Ingersol and others. But as I walked down the pier, there they were, very real ships with hundreds of very real people walking off heading out to the bars and night clubs...
Scared the hell out of me.
Never never never smoke crack before geometry class!
Arrogance? or ignorance?
What's your criteria for citing the US as the most successfull social system? Or were you actually talking about the Mayan's or something? Everywhere I look in the states, I see injustice, I see oppression, I see domination by the wealthy... I see lack of freedom. But above all, I see loss of culture, degeneration, and basic alienation from humanity.
You are definitely not the most successful social system in history. Period.
And you know what, I'm right, and you're wrong (for once there is such a clear line)... "why?" you would ask: because at least one person (me) - but many others - will disagree with you that you are the most successful social system. It's that simple. You are *not* utopia.
The more vast your assertions are, the easier they are to prove wrong.
a completely dominant military force does everything better than a weaker military force
A funny thing about military power is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy: Build yourself a great military to deal with the "world's threats", and the world's threats will build a military in turn. i.e. The US continually built up arms to counter what they saw as a great Soviet menace, causing the Soviets to do so in kind. Of course if you build your military too powerful, such that smaller countries don't have a chance to make an exercise at least restrictively costly for you, smaller countries who feel threatened will resort to alternatives: Is there anyone who doesn't think that the Iraq situation has done more to proliferate WMDs than every before? Hint: Every little country, say the Irans, Cubas and North Koreas, have more of a motivation than ever to acquire a force to counter what could be the next "regime change". I'm not speaking politically here, and am making no commentary on the war but that the logical conclusion is that it will naturally lead to the militarization of "evil" nations.
And how do you plan on doing that? Attacking every country that is anti-american? Doing that will only fuel more terrorism. And to counter that terrorism, you attack more countries, which fuels more terrorism ad infinitum
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
If you're fighting for something you love (Not necessarily your leader, but your home, or your country) against a superior force, you do anything. Suicide bombers, chemical weapons, torturing POWs, anything you think might give you a chance.
I agree with you right up to the point of where you start intimidating, torturing, and mass murdering your own people. Then, exactly whom are you protecting?
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
I can only imagine that if Slashdot, one of the largest redirection sites on the internet (heck, what is that term.. uhh.. Slashdot effect?).. if this site starts doing the 'archive' trick automatically, I can only imagine that this little feature will disappear rather soon.
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
Since we haven't encountered any alien species to murder yet, I'm not surprised. However, the meaning is obvious from the root Latin.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Am I the only person who thought "Ender's Game" was actually game.... ?
Even though it makes you feel superior to assert your knowledge of crappy Sci-Fi novels, you guys should at least throw a bone to the rest of us.