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Roaming WLAN / GPRS

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the bring-it-on dept.

Obnoxio The Clown writes "The Register has an article on breaking technology which will (theoretically) allow roaming between WLAN and GPRS (and presumably 3G when it gets here)." At long last, I'll be able to delete my spam from everywhere!

52 comments

  1. This is great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Redundant

    I haven't read the articlöe yet, but good on them!

  2. 3G? by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't know about you guys, but I feel like it's more likely that this kind of technology will become 3G than the third generation mobile networks themselves.

    --
    .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    1. Re:3G? by Michael+Hunt · · Score: 5, Interesting

      802.11 as next-generation cell? Unlikely. The contention arbitration mechanisms aren't there, and the protocol was never designed to be used over a distance of greater than about 500 metres.

      People like Karlnet (with TurboCell) have tried to push this envelope, largely unsuccessfully. A company I was involved with (who shall remain nameless, as I still own some of their stock) tried to push these technologies as 'long distance wireless multipoint technology' and it plain sucked at it. Square peg, round hole.

      Comparing 802.11(a,b,g, or even TurboCell) with 2.5G/WCDMA/GSM/whatever is like comparing shared 10 megabit ethernet with a DS1. The latter has fixed timeslots to avoid two, three, or 30 devices contending for the available bandwidth. Each device is allocated a section of spectrum (bandwidth in the case of a DS1.) 802.3 has CSMA/CD which guarantees that all devices can continue speaking in the presence of collisions. 802.11 uses an even more perverse scheme referred to as CSMA/CA (collision AVOIDANCE,) which avoids collisions in the unlikely event that all nodes can see each other.

      Incidentally (I will get to the point eventually, I promise,) cell works by dividing the available spectrum into timeslots, much as a DS1 does. The three most common division mechanisms are FDMA (frequency multiplexing, in which case every device gets its own unique, but very small, section of spectrum), TDMA (timeslot multiplexing, in which all devices contend for the same spectrum, but the timing guarantees each device uses a given slot,) and CDMA (code-based multiplexing, i'm honestly not sure how this works. Qualcomm own a patent on much of it, paid for by the American taxpayer.)

      Since each device is guaranteed, deterministically, not to step on the toes of any other device, the devices don't have to be able to see each other in order to avoid major contention issues.

      Now, back to 802.11 and CSMA/CA. The CSMA/CA algorithm guarantees that a given device won't hog the spectrum when it can hear other devices contending for it. If you move some of these devices such that they can't hear each other, the theory has it (which is why you have a wireless net running in infrastructure mode with a base station) that the base station will repeat communications from one node to the others. However, node A won't have any way of knowing that node B is after some spectrum, and vice versa. End result, the node which is closer (think physics and speed of light) will get the lion's share of the bandwidth.

      Based on these assumptions, as well as the fact that 802.11 operates in spectrum used by microwave ovens, obscure military devices (the UNI/I 5.8 gig band,) and some satellite stuff (sideband interference 100MHz up the scale), 802.11 will never replace a properly thought out deterministic voice-grade protocol.

      Now, *MDS on the other hand....

      --
      You're doing it wrong.
    2. Re:3G? by spot35 · · Score: 1
      I don't think so. It's just that gprs networks have been around a little longer than the 3G networks, and as a result have had more applications developed for it. You wait for a few months, we'll be seeing the first killer apps for the 3g phones that are getting widespread adoption.

      Then again, none of my other prophesies have come to pass ;)

    3. Re:3G? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

      blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah i'm a boring nerd blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah (posting as perceived by a hot chick)

    4. Re:3G? by rcs1000 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's funny you should mention this, because I just got my 3G phone working yesterday. It sucks.

      (For the record I am using Hutchinson's three service in the UK with the NEC e606 phone.)

      Compared to WLAN access (even at its slowest), 3G crawls. And - frankly - you've got a better chance of finding a WLAN access point than consistent 3G coverage.

      WLAN does, however, have to jump through a few hurdles before it can approach what the cell phone networks do. Firstly, it needs some kind of rationing. At CeBIT my laptop could always see about 20 WLAN networks at any time. Surprise, surprise: none of them worked as they all interfered. At least with cell-phones, one person has a working service.

      Secondly, there is no support for "handing-off" between base stations. Given the limited range of an AP, this is a must. (It's also not simple: you need to maintain your IP address as you jumo between APs, which requires a unified backbone network - which 3G has, but WLAN does not.)

      Thirdly, it needs various WLAN access point owners and cell-phone operators to communicate. And this is where I break down laughing.

      I wish, I wish WLAN could come and allow me to throw away my terrible NEC e606. But I just don't see it.

      --
      --- My dad's political betting
    5. Re:3G? by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      802.11 as next-generation cell? Unlikely. The contention arbitration mechanisms aren't there, and the protocol was never designed to be used over a distance of greater than about 500 metres.

      Your comment is no doubt very convincing. On the other hand, IDE was never designed to run at 133 MHz. I realize the analogy is poor, but we've managed to scale technology beyond the wldest dreams of the original designers before... providing the demand existed, that is.

      --
      .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    6. Re:3G? by October_30th · · Score: -1, Offtopic
      i'm a boring nerd

      Indeed.

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
    7. Re:3G? by Michael+Hunt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Handoff between base-stations would require one of two things in order to work:

      a. the 802.11 infrastructure was all bridged, possibly with some interesting VLAN setups (although this would largely be useless, as you don't win anything by VLAN'ing on a shared network)

      b. device advertises its address as a 32-bit prefix to each base station it encounters, which then redistributes this into the network's IGP. This would not scale very well either.

      An ATM-based wireless protocol would sort out these issues as your IP connection would be an SVC (most likely) which could be handed between switches via PNNI. If convergence comes, it will be from this direction.

      Wireless ATM would be a really rad usage of ATM, too. Phone calls and data calls would all be configured as SVCs to very interesting NSAP addresses, and the base stations would have to have full ATM switching logic (possibly with MPLS built in) in order to cope.

      --
      You're doing it wrong.
    8. Re:3G? by Michael+Hunt · · Score: 1

      I'm not for the life of me saying that an 802.11-like protocol won't do the job. I'm merely contending that 802.11 in its current state won't.

      You wouldn't plug your brand new 120GB WD Special Edition into a second-generation ISA IDE card, either (well, not and expect it to move more than about 2MB/sec.)

      --
      You're doing it wrong.
    9. Re:3G? by Moskit · · Score: 1

      > Secondly, there is no support for "handing-off"
      > between base stations.

      Not quite true.

      802.11f (Inter Access Point Protocol) defines an interoperable solution for that, some manufacturers already provide roaming capabilities in their equipment. I actuall roam almost every day (walking in the office) without problems. Heck, even Ethereal can decode IAPP ;)

      As for handing over between various providers, there is something called Mobile IP that allows the user to be seen under the same IP, no matter if he crosses multiple bridge domains, different access technologies or even providers.
      Mobile IP has been there for a while, it's just not popular.

      Solution described in the article (did anyone read it?) describes common WLAN/GSM user _authentication_ (based on using SIM card). That is the most important part of the solution.

    10. Re:3G? by freemga · · Score: 1

      3G has just started out, and I'm sure it will get better. As long as WLAN doesn't support any kind of hand-over (between diffrent nodes) you will never have any mobility with it. I would like to think as WLAN as a extension to 3G not a competitor. regards, Magnus

    11. Re:3G? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think they need some killer apps for GPRS first...

  3. Spam by Neophytus · · Score: 4, Funny

    At long last, I'll be able to delete my spam from everywhere!
    Thats my kind of night taco! An evening in the pub with a drink in one hand and a PDA deleting spam in the other... I mean, girls come second to spam any day!

    1. Re:Spam by jkrise · · Score: 1

      "girls come second to spam any day" And my spam is full of pretty girls :-)

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    2. Re:Spam by bbtom · · Score: 1

      Yeah? Mine is consistently telling me that my ding-dong isn't long enough, yet I still seem to get the pretty girls, and not to mention Viagra...

      So I need work on my willy, but I still get bucket loads of 'Hot Teens'. Yet I need Viagra. What a blow for targeting advertising.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
  4. IN SOVIET RUSSIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    Iraq liberates the USA!

    1. Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Redundant

      USA liberates YOU!

  5. Bandwidth by rf0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Cool now does that mean instead of paying for airtime on my mobile I can route my calls via my ADSL using VoIP + right software? Now that would be cool and save money

    Rus

    --
    Cheap UK and US VPS
    1. Re:Bandwidth by DJPenguin · · Score: 1

      If you're at home, sure - if you're roaming on GPRS, well, you'd probably end up spending 100x more on the GPRS chargers, unless there are unlimited GPRS plans around... *drool* (there aren't in the UK)

    2. Re:Bandwidth by giberti · · Score: 1

      According to AT&T Wireless in the Metro DC area, it should be available soon. (Their Siebel system has it as an item, it's just not available to the public yet.) I do find the GRPS service a little slow.

      --

      AF-Design, web development.
    3. Re:Bandwidth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is something I've been wondering for a while. With the introduction of open phones that can run arbitrary internet applications, what's to stop me using VoIP, or even ICQ, thereby avoiding network costs?

      Sure, cost per byte is probably quite expensive now, but that will come down in time. It has to if the networks are going to be providing video streams at affordable rates. I think customers on 3 (the UK's first operational 3G network) can already watch some dodgy football clips.

    4. Re:Bandwidth by JonK · · Score: 1

      There are if you're a corporate: Orange offers flat-rate pricing for businesses, including Orange GPRS Business LAN, which is billed by the size of the pipe from their NOC to yours...

      --
      Cheers

      Jon
  6. 3G.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    will be finally implemented 3 generations after mine?

  7. Hi Taco, just in case you are not sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll
    You are still a filthy whore!!

    Thank You!!.... really!

  8. Credit Card SIM cards by spot35 · · Score: 1
    From the article -

    "What remains to be sorted, it seems, is a universal smartcard carrier - at the moment, the SIM card is the only possible authentication device, and it's by no means universal. Most smartcards are credit card sized, and almost no GSM phone now accepts SIM carriers of that size."

    Yeah, but have you seen the size of the current crop of 3G phones?!? They'll definitely be able to hold a credit card sized sim.

    1. Re:Credit Card SIM cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

      All I can say about your sig is "I'll get me coat..."

    2. Re:Credit Card SIM cards by harriet+nyborg · · Score: 1
      GSM phones have always had a SIM card.

      they are about the size of a dime and as thick as a credit card.

      i don't think the author of the article has the slightest idea of what she was writing about.

      what remains to be sorted is convincing the operators - who own the SIM cards - to allow them to be used for communications over WLAN networks where they presumably will not receive any air time revenue.

  9. 3G is already here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    ...and presumably 3G when it gets here

    3G is already here

    http://www.three.co.uk/

    1. Re:3G is already here by albino+eatpod · · Score: 1

      How is that +2 funny? It's real - three.co.uk is the first 3G mobile operator in the UK, but sadly the only handsets available are ugly as sin and probably lack some of the key features that later phones will have.

    2. Re:3G is already here by glesga_kiss · · Score: 1
      the only handsets available are ugly as sin and probably lack some of the key features that later phones will have.

      This "drip-feeding" of features has a posibility of turning off the key users. Most early adopters are the enthusiasts, with out them, the product will flop. Right now, I've a 2.5G SmartPhone that does pretty much everything for me that a mobile could do, excepting maybe video phone, but what use is that on a mobile platform? If I were to move to 3G, I would actually have to downgrade my phone. That's not going to happen! Instead, I'll get an SDIO WiFi card that'll work in my present phone, which will give me speeds far in excess of what 3G is capable of.

      Also, compare the large costs of 3G verses the near zero costs of WiFi. With WiFi, you get to use the device at home for free, yet you still have to pay 3G a fortune to use their technology at home?

      This article gives some more reasons to why 3G could flop. The roaming mentioned in the submitted article is about the only thing that could maybe save it.

  10. How Nice by Delifisek · · Score: 0

    You mean, spammers can spam my phone ?

    Oh Yess...

    --
    [My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
  11. Break through technology.... or same thing ? by MosesJones · · Score: 1


    Now I know this is wonderful and amazing, and totally different that today where you can

    1) Buy a WLAN card for your laptop
    2) Buy a GPRS card for your laptop

    Set WLAN to be the default, set GPRS to be "dial when network connection not available"

    Which means that a few seconds after moving from WLAN your GPRS connection will become active.

    I _know_ they are talking about being a bit smarter than this, but this is what anyone can do today, in fact newer laptop have WLAN built in so all you need to do is buy the GPRS card....

    Or have Bluetooth on your mobile, and built in bluetooth on the PC, like the new Sony's, and you have got 80% of the functionality for 20% of the effort.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:Break through technology.... or same thing ? by caluml · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or even better - look into Mobile IP. http://www.ipunplugged.com/ is a box we are trialling now. Uses care of addresses, and IPsec. (Oh, and our 3G works nicely ;) )

      --
      Get your own free personal location tracker
    2. Re:Break through technology.... or same thing ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right. This is not breaking technology.
      I saw this working on a laptop with Linux 5 years
      ago. Used WaveLAN (predecessor of wifi) and a
      GSM mobile phone connected via a data cable.
      Only new thing is data is sent via GPRS and not
      via standard GSM.

    3. Re:Break through technology.... or same thing ? by chotahead · · Score: 2, Interesting
      yah, right. like mobile IP (v4) fixes everything.

      how about triangle routing to the correspondent node ... this will make big fun for anti-spoofing filters. you can always reverse tunnel, but what if your home agent is miles away and you're talking to somebody close by? and what about somebody spoofing your binding updates? and you can forget about dynamic handoffs. blag. i don't like MIPv4.

      and good luck trying to use ipUnplugged stuff without their Roaming Server, or with home agent and mobile node behind different NAT devices, or trying to maintain advertised functionality without end-to-end ipU boxes.

      now, MIPv6 is another story entirely ... ;)

      --
      .sig == "opinions are like @ss holes ... everybody has at least one"
  12. delayed reaction perhaps by gr8gatzby · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    is it possible for a submitted story to be at "pending" status for 3 days? delayed reaction perhaps?

    --
    Hard work often pays off in time, but laziness always pays off right now.
  13. Welcome to Europe... by MosesJones · · Score: 4, Interesting


    Anyone who thinks the smart chip is credit card sized is a moron. My mobile has a smart card inside, its the same size as the smart card in my credit card... BUT NEITHER OF THEM ARE THE SAME SIZE AS THE CONTAINER (i.e. credit card or mobile).

    Sheesh, you can get smart cards that need all that space for extra memory, but most are tiny things with the external contacts making up most of the support.

    The mobile IS the smart card device that can be carried around as it has all of the required elements

    1) Contains a smart card
    2) Able to interact with other devices over multilpe mechanisms (GSM, IrDA, Bluetooth etc)
    3) Smart card can be replaced as require.

    Smart cards are NOT credit card sized, that is the plastic that holds them. Its sort of like saying that starter motors are car sized.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
  14. Big Brother by caffeinex36 · · Score: 1

    Don't give in, it's a secret plot to monitor everyone.

    /end conspiracy theory

    On a serious note. How is privacy affected by "new Technology". Something like "Freedom Net"(forget if it was actaully called this) would be nice for this.

    -Rob

  15. moron communicating in the dark daze to follow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    blind ip, encryption (gov.va.msn.?net?(tm) approved of course), wi-fi? kewl.

    lookout bullow. the daze of the ill eagle payper liesense hostage ransom stock markup bullshipping industrIE, is dissolving into brand gnu coolapps.

    there are attempts being made to delete the hobbyist dogooders, from upon the pacific crest annex of capitollist hill (of beans).

    lookout bullow. consult yOUR creator regarding matters that involve knowing the facts. anticipate attacks on yOUR integrity.

  16. KARMA ME UP BABY, I NEED A MOUNTAIN DEW REFILL by FUCK+ME+I+FAILED+IT! · · Score: -1, Redundant

    Roam from wireless LAN to phone network, on a single bill? By Guy Kewney, Newswireless.net Posted: 08/04/2003 at 08:28 GMT Normally, "strategic relationships" aren't worth much of a look; but a deal done between Transat and Gemplus could open up a new universal roaming system from phone to WLAN and back again, as users move around cities. As announced, the agreement is merely "to extend secure WLAN access to enterprise and home markets" - by using smartcard security. What it actually means, however, is that within a very short time, anybody who operates a wireless "hot spot" could find themselves earning a little extra money by connecting phone subscribers to the Internet. And the number of hotspots offered by phone operators could rocket. The two enterprises have focused on a user authentication system developed by Transat: it's called WAIN (Wireless Access Internet Node) by using Gemplus smart card technology. "This solution will address the security concerns of WLAN devices and enable wireless operators to use their existing infrastructure to offer WLAN access as part of their service portfolio," says the official press announcement. To understand why this is important, you only have to go back a couple of weeks, to the recent 3GSM Congress in Cannes where a company called t-net, developer of the WeRoam service, got together with Transat and Performance Technologies (PTIX) to demonstrate (you have to register) seamless roaming between WLAN and GSM networks at the exhibition. Working together, the three companies were able to unify WLAN networks with the GSM network community allowing subscribers to roam between networks and yet have a single identity and receive just one bill. Add smartcard authentication, and you have WLAN users able to roam freely between WLAN and GPRS networks, without having to sign onto a new Megabeam or OpenZone or Costa Coffee or Starbucks or hotel-based mini-LAN every time you go more than 30 feet away. "The use of the smart card allows enterprises, mobile, and fixed network operators to offer secure WLAN roaming to their customers over their existing infrastructure," said the release. "Residential WLANs also benefit from the trusted security model based on SIM functionality." It's hard to see any operators of WLAN hotspots resisting the lure of this. If you run a huge network of prime hotspot sites, it's still going to be a certainty that most of your users will go from your best hotspot to one that is outside your control, because even the biggest operator is still a minority player. Adding subscribers from other hotspot networks will be a juggling act, financially. It will be necessary to work out how much extra traffic you get (and the costs associated with this) against how much extra income you get from other service providers when their users log onto your network. What remains to be sorted, it seems, is a universal smartcard carrier - at the moment, the SIM card is the only possible authentication device, and it's by no means universal. Most smartcards are credit card sized, and almost no GSM phone now accepts SIM carriers of that size. Two quotes: "Transat is excited about the fast market potential that this cooperation can unlock in this developing market," said John Baker, Transat founder and CEO. "This partnership is important as it ties into Gemplus' unfolding strategy to investigate new markets," said Philippe Martineau, VP Business Development Group, Gemplus. "The aim is to help the operator leverage existing roaming agreements while providing a consistent and secure service over GPRS and WLAN. The integration of Transat's solution with Gemplus' smart card expertise offers a minimum investment solution with seamless network integration that will offer tangible value to the Mobile Network Operator." More information about Transat Technologies is available at http://www.transat-tech.com, and Gemplus at http://www.gemplus.com. © More great articles from NewsWireless.Net Free mobile phone video - carried over audio? Where were you last Thursday night? Microsoft puts Bluetooth and .Net in Smartphone 2003 Cash'n'Carrion Reg Shop Register Broadband from only £25.99 OOOOH YEAH BABY WHO LOVES THE KARMA, HERE'S A REPOST FOR YOU PEOPLE WHO ARENt' ALLOWED TO FUCK!!!

  17. Hey Taco... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    Your wife is such a whore!

  18. Isn't it more about roaming billing? by Mike+McTernan · · Score: 1

    Can't mobile IP already do this? Surely this is more about the billing, allowing the network to keep charging the user per octet for some 'service' even when they go onto a wireless lan, which may or maynot be free to use. Likely the network hosts the mobile IP home agent on their network somewhere and charges the subscriber per octet forwarded through it to outside their network....

    --
    -- Mike
  19. The Register is six months behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Geez, there's been a TON of convergence products announced in the last six months from the likes of Comsys and PCTEL. Just because the Register finally noticed one such product doesn't make it news at all.

  20. File another one under "This is already here" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With the magic of MobileIP you can already do this.

    Here's the software to do it.

  21. WLAN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the big deal? Motorola has been on this since Jan this year:

    http://telephonyonline.com/ar/telecom_motorola_a va ya_proxim/

    http://www.tmcnet.com/enews/011403e.htm

  22. Market? What market? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I worked on a similar project at a major cell phone company. It started over a year and a half ago, and quickly fizzled. Why? There's little market. We had a solution but no customers. Wow, you can be connected to your corporate LAN via 802.11 in the building, and seamlessly transition to GPRS when you leave the building, without losing your connection! Sounds great, but how many people do you know who access their corporate network via their cell phone, or who actively work on their laptop while they're walking out of the building? The only promising application for this technology was PDAs, and people don't run enterprise applications or work corporate spreadsheets on their PDAs. The "seamless handoff" tech is cool, but there's just no market.

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
  23. "Breaking technology"? by sean.peters · · Score: 1
    The Register has an article on breaking technology

    Is it just me, or does this sound like a bad thing?

    Sean

  24. CDMA'z already going it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    This capability is already available in CDMA... oh well.

  25. Isn't this already provided by Birdstep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    They clain their mobile IP client can roam seamlessly between all kind of networks an access techs.

    http://www.birdstep.com/wireless_infrastructure/ mo bile_ip.php3

  26. Voice over GPRS? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Can I make Voice over GPRS connections, a la VoIP with WCDMA? Would a VoGPRS session persist across t-net's kind of GPRS->WLAN transition? That kind of roaming alone would seem the killer app for VoGPRS.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  27. RTFA by anno1602 · · Score: 1

    If you had RTFA, you'ld know that the point of the technology is rather on the billing and WLAN-side than on the GPRS/CDMA/3G/Your Favorite Mobile Data Standard Here side.