Pinnacle, Online Grades, Skipping School and More

Ishkibble writes "The Matrin County School Board has a new way of post a student's grades online for a parent to check. Pinnacle is the name of the program, a simple java applet. Not only does Pinnacle log student's grades, but also attendance and conduct. The way grades are accessed are by inputting the first 6 digits of your social security number and the first 5 letters of your last name. With a logon system as simple as this, one has to question the security and privacy of the students. This has been making my life a living hell for the past 2 months, every night my parents go on and check to see if i have any homework and won't let me do anything till it's done"

Comments

Probably Good and Bad

[abcxyz]

I agree that the security of the system is lacking and probably wouldn't take a lot of effort to circumvent.

However, as a parent, having access to my child's progress in school without continually bugging all 7 teachers is an excellent idea. It gives me an opportunity to see if he needs help without waiting 9 weeks. (Mind you, he has NO problem with asking for help when he needs it.)

You indicate that your parents are putting you through hell daily to make sure you've done your homework -- is this an indication that you've had problems getting it done in the past? Maybe if the HW is finished before the fun is started, they might lighten up a bit in the future.

-- Rick

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Captain_Stupendous]

LOL. Typical parent's response. It's interesting to see the difference in age of Slashdot readers. Parents think this is a great idea, and kids think it's an invasion of privacy. As with all things, this is obviously not a black & white issue.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Gefiltefish11]

Remember that kids (aka "minors;" those under the age of 18) have, with a few examples that are far afield of this issue, virtually no right to privacy where their parents are concerned.

If a school system can post grades, homework, progress, etc. on the web and the parents want that, then this may be a good thing. However, it is important to recognize that families and parents have a right to privacy from outside sources and the "security" scheme for this system seems sorely lacking.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[st0rmcold]

I am in between this issue, I can see the parent side, they want the best for their children, which is completly normal, and moral.

But on the other hand, you have the child, might be trying hard, might not, but with this, you're kinda taking all the trust away, by not believing them, so I feel for the kids that actually do their homework and have their parents watching over every turn, it's gonna bring feelings of resentment.

The child's best interest is not always to be watched like a hawk, sometimes it's to let him/her make a few mistakes and realize the importance of such things. Without realizing this, you can force them until they are like 14-15 and if they never realized it on their own, they will revolt, and you will have completly lost the battle, even if you're original intent was to give the child reason.

It's a form of over-protection, and it has had very detrimental effects in the past.

Very touchy issue indeed.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[mangr3n]

The parents aren't simply "wanting what's best for their children." As a parent the depth of my responsibility toward my child is greater. I have a responsibility to the society and to my child to assist him or her in becoming a useful,productive member of society. One ready and able to deal with life on life's terms.

As such I am responsible for the example I set and the "propoganda" I push either through my actions or my words. Conversely, I am also responsible to evaluate the affects of my information and example on him or her. If there are problems, I need to adjust the message or example I'm sending to my child, so that he has the information he needs to make good decisions.

I really do have a right to know. Because at 28 years my child will be a product that is in part a result of my actions.

When my child turns 18, I will no longer have any right to information he's not willing to give; therefore all of his decisions from that point forward will be up to him and will be his responsibility. And if he's not prepared at that time, I will feel that I've not done right by him.

I agree that a hawklike presence over my child's life would be detrimental. It is good to let a child make mistakes and learn from them. BUT IT'S THE PARENTS JOB TO KNOW WHEN TO STEER HIS CHILD AWAY FROM MISTAKES WHICH HAVE CONSEQUENCES THAT ARE MORE THAN HIS CHILD CAN HANDLE. That's my responsibility. My child's life must be an open book to me. Because until he's 18 the damage he causes to himself or other's are MY RESPONSIBILITY, NOT HIS.

Now parent's on the otherhand aren't at all perfect. Thus some children really are oppressed, over-protected, and some even left to fend for themselves. Other times they're wrong and the feelings of oppression are actually guilt or shame for being held accountable.

The misuse by a parent of this service, is truly a problem. But I would bet you that if a child feels the need to hide his grades from his parent, and the parent feels the need to be all-intrusive in his child's life, then the problems in that relationship aren't caused by a website like this. Getting rid of tools that show the parent how his child is doing, won't fix that relationship.

So if you make the statement, "a parent may end up being intrusive, therefore don't do it", I would argue that it this statement is false. In cases where this is true, the parent is already being intrusive and the problems in that relationship are not caused by this service.

PS The security is an issue.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Reziac]

I'm not a kid either, I'll be 48 next month, but I remember what it was like to be a kid.

In fact, the best way to make a kid feel so invaded that they turn to sneaking around at every opportunity, is to give them NO privacy.

Kids, like adults, have a NEED for a certain amount of inviolate privacy, and a NEED to feel trusted (thus worthy of your trust, and in turn willing to trust YOU as the responsible adult). If they don't get it, they'll find some way to manufacture it (ie. turn to sneaking it), and they'll also feel like they're no good since no one trusts them. This is not the way to raise a responsible adult.

As you say, treating a kid like an adult (within the limits of that kid's *current life experience*) is the best way to make them live up to your expectations. If you constantly check up on them, the only message the kid gets is "No one trusts me anyway, so why the hell try." The upshot is, your kid won't trust YOU either, and won't come to YOU when he needs help.

Checking up on kids is NOT the same as being an awake, aware, involved parent. If you had to inspect your kid's closet to find his new gun, you've already failed at a fundamental level. If you were doing your job and had your kid's trust, your kid would never have felt the need to sneak a gun into the house in the first place.

Yes and no

[JanneM]

Well, the authentication mechanism does seem unsecure - that is something the school needs to work on, or they're just setting themselves up for a lawsuit if it's used in an inappropriate way.

But... You complain that your parents find out what happens to you at school? That your legal guardians can find out if you try to deceive them and not do schoolwork? Hear - methinks it's the worlds smallest violin playing the worlds saddest song...

How about actually attending school and doing the homework?

They are doing only doing it because you care

[rf0]

Wether you believe it or not your parents are doing only because they care. You might not think it now but you will look back at some point and realise they are doing what they think is best for you.

As for the privacy issues ok prehaps its not so great but at least they are trying even though a custom username/password combination might be better

Rus

Re:They are doing only doing it because you care

[Sycraft-fu]

I used to agree with that statement, till I met a number of parents that take so much personal pride in their kid's achievements that it is all that is important to them. They care about their kid doing well to make themselves look and feel beter, not for their kid's own sake.

As a generaly rule though, yes parents do keep on their kids because they care.

Two issues

[El Volio]

To the poster: your parents sound like they're doing their job. Be glad they're interested in your achievement. If all parents felt the same way, our society would be in a wholly different situation.

That said, the login process probably does need to be changed, but doing that might end up defeating the purpose: if they sent a login via snail mail, kids are likely to intercept it. Then again, if the whole area knows about it, parents would get suspicious about why they haven't received theirs. It's a simple problem to fix, though, and doesn't change the fact that the underlying program keeping parents informed is a great idea.

Security/Privacy

[binaryDigit]

Well if someone has that much of your SSN, you probably have bigger security/privacy issues than someone simply looking up your grades. Though in general the idea of using ones SSN (or parts thereof) just doesn't leave you with a warm fuzzy.

As to your parents, well it's unfortunate that they feel compelled to use a tool like this in the way that they do. However, the bigger question is WHY they feel compelled to have to use it. It may be the "wow, we can do this" factor, which often times wears off. It could be that you are flakey and put them in a position to think that they HAVE to do this in order to make sure you are getting your homework done. I don't know which. But in any case, have you tried simply talking to them about the whole issue? Parents CAN be reasonable when talked to in an adult fashion (i.e. talk to them like and adult and they're more likely to treat you like one).

a few points

[nuggz]

1. You should show up to school, it is your parents responsibility to ensure you do.
2. You should do your homework, again your parents should make sure you do.
3. You should have some privacy, and your parents should let you have it. However if you aren't trustworthy enough to do your homework and go to school, you deserve what you get.
4. The risk of use of this system by unauthorized persons is unacceptable.

This is an arguement of privacy vs responsible supervision, like having the "internet computer" facing back into the room to watch what your kids are doing.

I'd be willing ot bet that if you always show up for school, and always do your homework (or at least get near perfect grades). Your parents won't bother checking up on you.

Otherwise wait till you're 18, then bitch out any school that releases personal information without your consent.

Login system using SSN's

[sebmol]

No computer system should *ever* use SSN's as the user name or password. The ubiquitous presence and use of SSN's for such purposes are one of the main reasons identity theft is going rampant these days.

Instead, they should let every parent create their own pair of user name and password that can't directly be linked back to either student or parent (well, unless they chose to use their real names, of course). That's, for example, how Washington Mutual is handling their online banking service.

On a slightly unrelated note, how is this supposed to work in school districts that by law have to give access to illegal immigrants who by their very nature have no SSN? There are quite a few places, namely in California, where the law says that schools can't ask for citizenship or immigration status and have to accept children regardless of that.

How exactly will this produce better adults?

[wrero]

Those parents who are conscientious or care enough about their children and their performance in school, that is, those that will use this site, are probably not the parents who SHOULD be using this site.

There are obvious exceptions, but it seems to me that the majority [not all] of kids who have real problems in school are the children of uninvolved parents to begin with.

Sure, there will be those involved parents, who think "B" stands for "Bad" who will be all over this site and love it; they can really pressure their kid to SUCCEED! These are the same parents that probably put up "motivational" posters in their kid's room.

I thought we have established, in general, that "micro-management" in the ADULT world is a bad thing? Are kids really going to learn to be responsible if someone is looking over their shoulder every day? Or, are the periodic student-reviews (report cards) and periodic management meetings (parent-teacher meetings) a better way to allow the student to learn responsibility for themselves...

This of course is all my opinion.

It would be my contention that the rights to privacy outweigh the substantive long term benefits from such a system - because in the end, I'm not seeing any REAL benefit.

My own experiences....

[cnelzie]

I had the excellent opportunity to attend a private boarding school for my sophomore year of high school. It was quite frankly the best school and time that I had had at school.

Sure, just like in public school, I fell to the bottom of the social structure, but I excelled academically while attending that school. I know that if I had the opportunity to have completed my high school education, I would be much farther ahead in life then I am now.

However, I am digressing...

While at that school, the faculty had full control over the students lives, only the students that excelled in their studies had privelages above the students that didn't excel.

For instance, everyday, we were given roughly two hours after class, prior to dinner of "free-time" where we could go where we wanted to go and do what we wanted to do.

In the evening, prior to hitting the sack, we had mandatory study time. Unless you were excelling in your studies, you were to stay in your own room and study. If you were excelling, then you had the freedom to study where you wished or do whatever other activity that you wished.

So, in my case, straight after classes, I focused on tearing through my homework. After that, I took the evening free-time to keep up with a few television shows, shoot pool with other excelling students, attend evening on campus bonfires and slurry of other activities that simply weren't available durring the after classes free-time.

If my parents had been as forceful on me, as that school was, I would have likely developed a much better study habit then I currently have and would have continued to excel in life.

As it stands, I am doing okay, but I really could be doing better.

Slashdot's credibility

[swb]

This has been making my life a living hell for the past 2 months, every night my parents go on and check to see if i have any homework and won't let me do anything till it's done

No offense to anyone, but how is Slashdot supposed to have credibility on "adult" issues like security, intellectual property, and technology when a story has some kid whining about his parents not letting him out to play until his homework is done?

I think it's pretty pathetic and this kid is pretty pathetic, too. When I was kid before computers, you didn't get to play outside until your homework was done, either. Mom and dad checked the assignments, grades, etc frequently to make sure you weren't fucking up.

If grades came back low at the end of the semester for anything but gym, freedoms were further curtailed until they went back up. If they went up and stayed up, greater freedoms were granted.

I'm glad they did this because -- *gasp* -- that's a lot how the real world works, except that nobody pays as much attention along the way, it all comes down to the the final exam.

Re:This is living hell for teachers too!

[tmortn]

I couldn't disagree with your seintiments more. Seems to me you can place that as a disclaimer to your grade book and then leave an open invitation to discuss a childs progress with parents as well.

Just like with illness, early detection of a problem at school is the best and sometimes only way to solve the problem. By finding the time to keep grades reasonbaly up to date where parents can easily have access to them can give you a valuable ally in your efforts to reach struggling children.

Complain about the fact you probably have to many students in each class to realisticly keep an up to date grades book but please god don't say you would preffer not to post grades for parental review till the last week, what good does a poor mark do at that point ? The race is over, options are limited. You have to keep some running tally of grades anyway so why not take an hour at the end of each week and keep the online values consistent with your 'work in progress'?

Granted conference time is more valuable but is it a bad thing to give parents one more way to stay abreast of their childrens progress ?

Re:So...

[0x0d0a]

Or if he did his farking homework instead of slacking for a while, they might be lulled into complacency and not bother to check his grades for a while

Or he could just do the damn homework, period.

I mean, there are a lot of people paying out a lot of money so that he can get educated, and he's simply ignoring it. (Yes, you can learn without school and homework, however, I'm going to bet that Ishkibble's not running out and reading research papers in the time he's saving).

Is there some homework you don't like? Sure. Is there some that won't teach you anything you don't know? Sure. But neither does it warrant completely ignoring it. The moment teens feel that they don't need to do something, they want to demonstrate their power ("I'm not a *kid* anymore") and ignore it.

Simply ignoring things you don't like generally acts as a pretty large anchor in your professional life, guys. Take advantage of this time to learn how to deal with people in authority that make bad calls.

Re:So...

[knobmaker]

Or he could just do the damn homework, period.

I agree that this would be the best solution, but it has the added disadvantage of pleasing the parents, which is anathema to most of the teenagers I've ever met. Me included, I'm afraid.

Our local school system uses Pinnacle, and I think it's a fine idea. My 15 year old daughter, who always got straight As in the past, started slacking off in high school, which came as a great shock to us when the first report card with Fs came home. So, we grounded her until the grades came up-- no going anywhere, no phone, no net, no TV. The howls of anguish could probably be heard halfway 'round the world. She tried everything (except actually doing the work) to get us to change our minds, and it was a pretty painful couple of months. But the online grade system gave us a black-and-white meter for lifting the sanctions. "The day we go online and you have no grade lower than a C is the day you aren't grounded. Period."

Eventually she gave up on bullying us into changing our minds, did the work, and raised the grades. Since she won't always have her doting parents to put the best spin on everything she does, I think it's a valuable lesson.

That said, I think it's a very poor idea to use the Pinnacle system to micromanage the child-- making sure that she does her homework every night. It should be the child's responsibility to keep up with that stuff, to do what is necessary to achieve the desired result-- good grades. The child won't always have her parents to act as semi-sentient personal organizers-- she'd better get used to organizing herself, or it's a recipe for delayed disaster.