Palm Memory Maximum Increased

Trillan writes "PalmSource has announced that it has developed a technology for increasing the maximum RAM on a Palm handheld from 16MB to 128MB. Hopefully new devices will come out soon to take advantage of it." This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick. As more and more multimedia apps are written for PalmOS, more storage space only makes sense.

Comments

It's for competitiveness against PocketPC

[fer]

This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.

Palmsource is responsible for the PalmOS which is used by both Sony *and* Palm devices. It has nothing to do with flash memory (which is used by both hardware brands).

With this development, all Palmsource licensees including Sony and Palm can use up to 128MB internal memory to remain competitive with PocketPC devices.

Re:Erm...

[DiscoOnTheSide]

Not sure if it's changed since I took a stab at programming for the Palm platform, but there's no RAM/ROM division like PocketPCs/PocketLinux PDAs. Programs are run straight from the storage memory, no RAM needed.

Palm already competing with Memory Stick

[Anonymous Coward]

This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.

If that's their plan, then they're doing quite well, since 7 (out of 9) of Palm's current models and at least one of the older models all have an SD Card slot. Some links for more info:

• The Palm product family -- look at the "Expansion Cards" row.
• And a list of expansion cards that are available from Palm. (You can use generic SD Cards from other manufacturers too, of course.)

However, as you might be aware from having used Flash in other circumstances, regular RAM is waaaaaaaay faster than Flash, so breaking the 16MB RAM barrier is a Good Thing(tm).

On a completely different note, why doesn't Slashdot allow me to use HTML entites, so that I could write ™ and get a REAL trademark symbol? Is it that hard? It seems like actually extra work to filter them out!

memstick, chemstick

[lexcyber]

I have a 128M SD-card in my palm tungsten T, wich I run alot of application from. I also have some mp3's on it. So what is the point?

Re:memstick, chemstick

[dreadlock9]

Reading from the SD card is a lot slower than reading from internal memeory. In fact, when you run an app from a card, it actually copies it into internal RAM first so it'll run faster.

Re:memstick, chemstick

[ePhil_One]

I have a 128M SD-card in my palm tungsten T, wich I run alot of application from. I also have some mp3's on it. So what is the point?

The point is Slashdot editors are allowing ignorant trolls in story submissions to get through.

The article is (I assume :^) about changes in the Palm OS that allow MAIN MEMORY to expand to 128MB for 16MB. The submitter, clearly having no clue, used his limited knowledge to say "Hey, those Sony gadgets can use proprietary 128MB memory sticks to expand. Ha! Dumb Palm!"; in a clear violation of "Better to hold ones tongue and be thought the fool than to flap ones jaws and remove all doubt". I gave a pass to the 512MB SD card upgrade thats been available since the m50x series of Palm's, shame my Tungsten T's (m550) 256MB SD card isn't as slow, proprietary, and small as the card the poster is bragging about.

But back to the point. The original CPU in the Palm's had an addressing limitation of 8MB. Tricks were later played to allow it access 16MB. Later hacks were added to allow the PalmOS to access external storage, such as memory sticks and SD/MMC cards (Handspring also had their own format, and I believe was the innovator). I'm not sure what the limit on this external storage is, but clearly its > 512MB. But the 16MB is special, since this is where programs run, pointers are held, and anything you want to survive a card swapping live. Palm has recently introduced a new processor with OS5, the Dragonball CPU which is much faster. It emulates the old CPU faster than th eold CPU ran natively, though its not perfect (some stuff don't run), Native software for this CPU FLIES. It also isn't limited by the addressing problems of the old chip, though for the first generation the OS foisted the limitation on the system.

So either of two things have happened. The OS has been updated to allow the new CPU based system to use their improved addressing capabilities (maintaining backwards compatibility, since they are still manufacturing old CPU systems), or the have increased the number of virtual 8MB pages from 2 to 16 (think Intel's PAE extensions)

Close, but note quite.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the Palm, there are essentially four kinds of storage:

1. There's the system ROM. The system boots from this. It stores the whole operating system. It's actually flash, but then what isn't these days? Except in rare circumstances, the Flash is never updated. The one exception is that you might once or twice during the life of the system do a major OS upgrade by rewriting the whole system ROM. The system ROM is CPU-addressable memory, meaning it can issue load instructions against it. (Or actually on 68k, they're "move" instructions...)
2. The dynamically allocated memory that's available to applications. This resides in RAM, of course. I'm lumping the stack, the heap, global variables, etc. together here. Also directly CPU-addressable, otherwise how would you have variables in your program? :-)
3. The "databases". The Palm doesn't have files, or actually it does, but it doesn't use them for much and they are an afterthought. Instead, everything is in a "database". This is taken so far that even applications are databases. Their records contain code and other resources they need to run (GUI objects, bitmaps, etc.). Also, the user data is all in databases. Your phone list is a database, your datebook is another, etc., etc. These databases are, for the most part, surprisingly stored on the very same RAM chips as the dynamic data that programs use. Interestingly, the Palm has hardware write protection for this data, though, so even though it runs the good old 68000 instruction set, which is too old to support memory protection in the modern sense, you're still protected if a program goes haywire. It can't accidentally write over your phone list. In order to modify a database, you must go through an API call. Also of interest is the fact that, because important data (applications, all your phone numbers, etc.) is stored in this portion of RAM, when you reboot the Palm, the RAM is not erased. Or at least not that part of it. (Unless you do a cold boot.) So, yes, strange as it may seem, all your important data is stored in plain old RAM for months or years on end.
4. Some Palm models also have removeable flash media. These are much more like a traditional filesystem, with files, directory names, etc. In fact, they are a normal filesystem -- they're good old (!?) FAT. Palm doesn't really have great support for these devices, in that everything for years and years has all been designed to work with databases instead, so the idea of real files is a foreign concept, and most apps can't access them. Of course, there is a complete API for accessing filesystems on the flash if you want to build an application that calls it. Also, the OS does allow you to store read-only databases on the Flash, which means you can store applications there. (Remember, applications are stored in databases. In Palm terminology, a PRC is sort of just a special case of a PDB.)

So, to sum things up, yes, programs are run straight from storage memory, but storage memory happens to be RAM, although the operating system goes to a lot of trouble to mentally keep that RAM separate from the "regular" RAM (used in the traditional way), which is important because all that RAM is really coming from the same pool.

Re:Close, but note quite.

[MythosTraecer]

Also, the OS does allow you to store read-only databases on the Flash, which means you can store applications there.

The OS allows you to store both read-only and read-write databases on the memory cards, just like on a disk drive. But in order to write to a file on a card, you have to use the VFS API rather than the standard PDB access routines. Several add-on programs allow apps that don't support VFS to get read-only access to databases on cards. These add-ons can't provide write access because it would be impossible without causing data corruption on the card. But this read-only limitation is the fault of the application for not supporting VFS. The OS will let you freely read and write to memory cards until your heart's content. You just have to use VFS.

You are right in that apps can be stored on memory cards. But the Application Launcher you're using must support VFS (or you must use another add-on program); otherwise, you won't be able to see the app's icon in your App Launcher!

Memorysticks aren't RAM.

[wfberg]

Sony Clie handhelds run the PalmOS. The memorysticks are used for storage, not RAM, as PalmOS can't use that much memory for RAM. Which is part of the reason why they're extending PalmOS.

Re:Erm...

[Anonymous Coward]

On the Palm, apparently the really early models (like the Palm Professional I've had since 1997) actually used static RAM, but newer ones use dynamic RAM. On models that use AAA batteries, there is a circuit that steps up the voltage and a pretty powerful capacitor too, so that when you take out the batteries, your memory contents will stay around for quite some time. (An hour, last I tried it.) Apparently, because of the step-up circuit, the capacitor can be kept fully charged even when your (2 x AAA) battery voltage is waaaay down. So, the Palm devices make a valiant effort at keeping power going to the RAM.

I think static RAM was a good choice initially, because the Palm's CPU is actually running only a very small amount of the time. Even when the display is on, the device is in a power-saving mode called "doze" mode until you press a button or something. After a few minutes of inactivity, it goes into a different mode called "sleep" mode, in which current draw goes down even more. So, really, the percentage of the time that the processor is running is really quite small.

Dictionaries & AvantGo-I want a PDA, not a la

[Malc]

The big items on my Palm are a dictionary (5MB), and AvantGo (2MB). Both of these could be improved with more memory. I haven't even fully realised the potential of my M515, and it's already sitting at 12MB used.

MMPlayer for Palm

[datrus]

Checkout mmplayer.com.

I'm trying to develop a mobile media player that supports most codecs, formats and protocols.

I think this will be most useful when finished.

Capacitor Strength

[silentbozo]

I don't know if it is because of variability in the capacitors, age, or unstrength batteries, but in my Pilot 5000 (yes, an original USR Pilot 5000, upgraded with the 2mb IR card), I often lose my main memory if I swap batteries at the 2.3v-2.4v level.

So, while some palms may successfully hold their charge while you swap batteries, don't count on it. Always remember to hotsync your unit before changing batteries...

Ignorance of Palm/PalmSource/Sony and Palm OS

[MythosTraecer]

This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.

This shows a complete ignorance of Palm, PalmSource, Sony, and Palm OS itself.

PalmSource, the Palm, Inc. division responsible for Palm OS, announced this change to Palm OS because it's an important change. The previous 16MB limit was a holdover from older OS versions that ran on the 16/32-bit hybrid DragonBall (68328) processors. ARM processors have no such limitation. This change really should have been in Palm OS 5.0.

Palm Solutions Group, the Palm, Inc. division responsible for making Palm-brand handhelds, has little control over PalmSource, and can only make suggestions about what goes into Palm OS. Sony and Palm SG have about the same amount of influence over Palm OS now. Soon Palm, Inc. will be split into 2 completely seperate companies, and this distinction will be more clear to outsiders.

No version of Palm OS natively uses removable memory as RAM. Memory Sticks, SD, MMC, and CompactFlash cards are all accessed by using the VFS (Virtual File System) Manager API, which has been in PalmSource's Palm OS since version 4.0. VFS treats cards like removable drives, and files on cards must be accessed in a completely different way than databases in main memory. However, there are several programs that allow some directories on cards to be treated like RAM, allowing programs without VFS support some access to files on memory cards. Most of these only allow read-only access, though some work around this by copying the file from the memory card to RAM when it is accessed.

(Although VFS was added to PalmSource's Palm OS in version 4.0, Sony actually came up with most of the original API for its own version 3.5S. And HandEra (then TRG) actually predated both Sony and PalmSource's VFS API with a completely different "FFS" API for the CompactFlash slot on its TRGpro.)