Slashdot Mirror
No ID Cards in the Future
dmf writes "Throw away your identification cards! CNet is running a commentary piece on what the author perceives to be contradictions of privacy as technology continues to evolve our future. What boggles the mind is how social forecasters can so easily bypass longstanding privacy concerns by simply ignoring the horrific examples of abusive governments throughout history. How can a responsible thinker so easily shrug off the need to protect oneself from the unknown abuses of the future just because one may think things are relatively agreeable at present?"
How will I prove I'm legally able to drink?
we were all supposed to be getting Citizen I.D. cards soon.
tcd004
that would make cards uneeded! woohoo!
I would like to know what is really going on here. Does anyone really have any idea? One day we hear that everything is going 1984-esque with personal ID cards and Microsoft personel watching our every move. Then the next day we hear this. Whats happening?
Does anyone know what company he may be referring to here?
"My name's Lowry. Sam Lowry. I've been told to report to Mr. Warren."
"Thirtieth floor, sir. You're expected."
"Um... don't you want to search me?"
"No, sir."
"Do you want to see my ID?"
"No need, sir."
"But I could be anybody."
"No, you couldn't, sir. This is Information Retrieval."
I gave up the ability to have privacy when I started using the internet in 1994. From that point on I have assumed that I am a public figure and anyone can know anything about me.
I bank online, pay my bills online, and pay my taxes online.
Choice, freedom of technology or be a hermit
" What boggles the mind is how social forecasters can so easily bypass longstanding privacy concerns by simply ignoring the horrific examples of abusive governments throughout history. How can a responsible thinker so easily shrug off the need to protect oneself from the unknown abuses of the future just because one may think things are relatively agreeable at present?"
yes..
the problem people run into is when they follow the argument through, they end up sounding like the NRA. that's uncomfortable for millions who do not agree that everybody packing is a good idea. they want some policing. but as soon as you elevate discussion beyond sound-bite homilies you lose the massive, sadly ignorant, majority of americans. they can't follow you.
so the trick you need is to make sound bite sense and not sound like a 'gun nut'. then you can get middle ground people to relate and vote.
yes, that's real sad. but it's also a necessity of ignorant democracy, and if you don't figure out how to make it work, then we're fucked.
Hello Barcodes
Well isn't this just freakin Dandy!
Did anyone else notice that the author of this nearly content-free article referred to Bruce Schneier's complaint about hotels requiring a driver's license, then completely ignored the REST OF THE SENTENCE where Bruce explained why that is a bad thing?
It's a good thing the article was short, or I'd be bummed about wasting the time to read it.
Does the government have right to invade our lives? I think not. Life (military and police protect us from murder and such) Liberty (protect our right to freedom, to say what we want when we want to say it) and persuit of happiness (They feel the need to make us happy, not just allow us the ability to be happy. Social welfare... Ha! Let us govern ourselves!) Who are they to tell us what to do and what not to do, as long as it doesnt violate the basic human rights of another person? Seatbelt laws? HA! Drug laws are just killing more people than the actual drugs are... It's getting way too out of hand. In soviet russia, the government runs you. In Soviet America, apparently the same thing happens. Libility laws, too. Noone's responsible. Privacy... i think the issue isn't with our privacy, but with those compromising it. Advertising agencies and govermental agencies... IT people stop the massacre, you have the power! Anyone who'se anyone in the IT world reads this page, and they design these systems... have a backbone. And all you crazy geeks like me out there, check out libertarian policy, it's definately something to consider...
Give us our freedoms back!
Don't gloat for too long because you might miss the lobbying that is currently occurring over there with the aim of imposing similar restrictions ala the DMCA...
Quintus malus puer est.
The question is the answer. The terms "responsible" and "thinker" are not applicable to the majority of people you're worried about.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
If we are concerned over privacy issues, we need to take a serious look at exactly who enforces the privacy laws and how these elected officials get into office. As long as it costs tons of cash to run for public office, corporations are going to pay for canidates. As long as elected officials are owned by corporations, our privacy will always be up for sale. Only dedicated citizens and vocal consumers will be able to turn the tide of the privacy battle... right now the corporations are winning.
Actually it scares me *not* to need an ID card. With face recognition, fingerprinting, and other biometric measures in place. I don't recall being asked for permission about any of these.
"The makers of the Constitution conferred the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by all civilized men--the right to be let alone."
- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
Consider the Patriot Act and new changes being pushed by the neoconservative administration, I can't help but think the Bill of Rights is turning in to what happened to the rights list in Animal Farm.
Proud to post (this one) Anonymously!
What's interesting is that many who would decry the lack of personal privacy are also the same ones that lash out against DRM in any form. After all, isn't DRM all about protecting content (personal information) based on the wishes of the owner of that content? And just as quick as anti-DRM people like to point out that there is no perfect DRM, they hopefully realize that there is no such thing as personal privacy, at least not in the casual sense. Unless you are willing to go to extremes, much of who you are and what you do can easily be tracked. The article earlier about social engineering should give one pause enough to know that despite any safe guards and reassurances, that any information kept about you digitally (and now days that's almost everything) can be gotten to by someone who wants to get to it.
In the information age, privacy is "virtual". The govt wants us to fight the id card, because A) it gives the illusion that we might still have some privacy B) it keeps people focused on a specific technology/item (the id card), basically a red herring.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Remember that this is corporate America and the U.S. government with which we are dealing. The chance of their gathering data correctly, let alone devising a way to use it to their advantage, is remote. "
I agree with this statement, but. . .
The more more important point is how much the government and corporations *think* they are gathering data correctly, and *think* they can use it to their advantage.
We are entering an age of false assumptions and spurious conclusions drawn on anecdotal data that supposedly has "validity" because it was retreived using a SQL query.
I think there is going to be a need for another edition of Carl Sagan's a "The Demon-Haunted World," that deals directly with peoples' (governments', corporations') willingness to add ill-conceived "reading tea leaves" type conclusions to otherwise opinion-less data sets.
Congratulations, we've graduated. It used to be that you had to know a little science to keep from being ripped off. Now we're moving into an age where you'll need to know computer science and statistics to keep from being arrested or discriminated against.
-----
Believe me, I'm as surprised by my comment as you are.
I still think that David Brin has it right - personal data will get collected, collated, etc; what's important is that you be able to see what's being done with your data, and to make sure that everyone gets the same treatment - no exceptions for corporations, governments, politicians, etc.
Ironic that this article immediately follows one about keeping the same cell phone number for life. The "private" thing to do would be to get a different cell # every time you make or receive a call. If you don't want your friends to have to do a search every time they want to find you, you're going to need to commit to that phone #. And then what's the difference between it, and a big-brother government ID number?
The Straight Dope on Hitler and gun control
Of course, they can refuse service if you don't give them the number.
When I worked at Intel, we all had WWID's (World-Wide ID). I thought, "great, then my health insurance can use the WWID." Nope. They still used the SSN. Gotta love it when my SSN is on every card I have as a "subscriber number". Makes it that much easier to hijack my identity if my wallet is stolen.
Several months ago I read a post here that got me thinking about my SSN. According to the post, the SSN was not intended to be an ID number, but has gradually evolved into one. (Anyone who can post a reference to confirm this would be appreciated. I Googled around for a while but could only find references that equated SSN with ID). So I started noticing how often people ask me for it. I've been quite surprised at how often it is asked for. Exam registration, scholarship application, research conference registration, volunteer application, etc. I've started writing "available upon request" when it asked for my SSN, and no one has complained. But it makes me wonder how many times I've given it out without thinking twice about it?
There was a really good discussion about privacy issues in Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace by Lawrence Lessig. It gave a clear description of the problem and proposed some alternative solutions. One of his points was that privacy was formerly the default simply because no one was capable of maintaining a practical and useable database of the size that would be necessary. Because of this former impossibility, there was no need for legislation or other guidelines to address it. That makes the problem unique to our day and age because only recently have we had the technology to do these sorts of things. Lessig argues that in such cases we have two options:
- Interpret the Constitution as literally as possible. If the costitution says it's okay (or fails to say that it's not), then go for it.
- Determine a solution based upon the same principles that the founding fathers used.
Lessig tends to lean toward the second option, and he's very persuasive in arguing his viewpoint. One possible solution that he proposed was for database owners to blind themselves to personal information and to only use the data for statistical analyses. From the article: "IBM, for instance, is tinkering with "randomizing" data, which involves fatally altering data in a database. Number-crunchers can subsequently use the randomized data to study trends in the numbers, but can never reconstruct the original data--an improvement over using encrypted data." That sounds like a good solution to some of the problems. Companies can use their database to improve marketing research but can't use them to invade your privacy.Anyway, just some things to think about...
Consider the Patriot Act
Ok, I'm considering it.
I can't help but think the Bill of Rights is turning in to what happened to the rights list in Animal Farm.
How?
There's a ton of mention of the Patriot act in every single slashdot article, and how it's so damaging to everyones rights, etc, etc... And slashbot mods always give it a +5 insightful.
But how? Show me an example. Quote the parts of the act that is unconstitutional or denies you your rights.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
"How can a responsible thinker so easily shrug off the need to protect oneself from the unknown abuses of the future just because one may think things are relatively agreeable at present?"
A lethal combination of:
- Bread & circuses.
- Those that do not know history are condemned to repeat it.
- Current Question == Unpatriotic perception.
Any of these suck, alone. Together it could get nasty.My
Limekiller
Like almost all articles on privacy, this glosses over the distinction between data that was never private, but in the old days was not widely accessible, and true privacy.
Your address, your occupation and the approximate value of your house are not private information: lots of people know them.
The contents of your personal diary, your conversations with your SO in your bedroom, and how you voted at the last election are private information: no-one else can get them unless the government forces you to reveal them, someone burgles your house or a trusted person breaches your confidentiality.
We are approaching the point where all non-private data are easily accessible. That has some unfortunate effects (and many fortunate effects), but there's nothing that can be done about it.
There is however no reason why truly private information should become less private. The only cause of this loss of privacy is a growth in the ambition and power of government which has nothing to do with technology and which needs to be fiercely resisted.
The thing that infuriates me is that if this were a Democratic administration pursuing these legislative goals, we would see the neocon propaganda machine going balls-to-the-wall with apocalyptic wrath. Limbaugh and his lesser clones would daily be spewing out crap about how this is yet another example of how the Democrats are in cahoots with the commies and blah blah blah. But since we have Republicans in office there is next to nothing coming from these mindless sycophants who are responsible for propping up this administration.
I oppose any measures which lessen civil liberties no matter who is in office. Democrat, Republican, Green, don't care, doesn't matter. The "PATRIOT" Act was a complete load of shit, and kudos to the lone Senator who voted against it. (I think it was Feingold.)
Meanwhile, this so-called conservative administration is doing everything in its power to roll back civil liberties, and is succeeding in doing so on a daily basis. Congress is compliant, and the courts are becoming packed with judges friendly to the administration's views.
"Gotta give the cops MORE power! MORE! MORE! MORE, I SAY!" And if you complain about it, you are slandered as being unpatriotic or (worse!) a liberal.
Fuck all. These guys are power hungry goons the likes of which the Clinton administration never even got close to pursuing. Vote em all out, war success be goddamned!
The author, Michael Kanellos, says:
"Remember that this is corporate America and the U.S. government with which we are dealing. The chance of their gathering data correctly, let alone devising a way to use it to their advantage, is remote. "
This is an excellent point, and it is exactly part of the problem. It's not just when they use this information correctly it's when they screw it up as well. It's when they confuse me for a terrorist, or make connections in my data that aren't really there. So this remote problem is only one thing to worry about, it's also the rest of the time they get it wrong.
There's always room for improvement. Always some niggling little problem, even in "relatively" good times.
What do we do to improve things? Why, that's easy. Identify that group of people holding things back.
And if those people are listed in some database and are required to carry "papers" rounding them up is easy peasy.
And thus things "now" become things down the road, in easy, popular, and politically advantageous tasty little bite sized morsels.
America's founding fathers understood all of this very, *very* well and took steps to lay logs across the rails of such "progress."
Good thing we've gotten rid of most of *those,* eh brother?
You *are* a brother aren't you? Let's see your papers to be sure, shall we?
KFG
This is a perfect example of why gun ownership is a good idea and why our forefathers thought the Second Ammendment was a good idea.
Stand Fast,
tjg.
As the old Cold-War-era joke goes:
-kgj
Surely you know that the EU is in the process of passing DMCA-like laws.
Some information benefits the overall public; some doesn't.
If you liberate a work of literature, you can study it and produce better literature or gain a deeper understanding of the human experience.
If you liberate a previously forbidden document, you may reveal a scam or dangerous situation and inform the public.
If you liberate "Bob Smith purchased a box of Froot Loops on 01/07/02 at 21:06 for $3.27", you can write better advertising. As a society, we don't want better advertising. We want advertising to fail so miserably that they stop doing it!
It's just like a fascist dictatorship, without the punctual rail service!
The ACLU has a good summary of what you're asking for here: http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID =12263&c=206
The EFF has their analysis here: http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_ militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html.
And the Center for Democracy & Technology has a long list of links here: http://www.cdt.org/security/usapatriot/analysis.sh tml
Now go read at least one of these links before making anymore comments on how you don't think the Patriot act isn't bad for your freedom. EnkiduEOT
There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself
-Raymond Chandler, The Long Goodbye
Dear AC,
Please cease and desist your illegal acts immediately or face the consequences. It is obvious that you have concealed the place of origin of your digital communication by using the name "Anonymous Coward" rather than your true name and email address. You are a threat to Homeland Security and are probably illegally downloading music, too.
Anyone knowing the true identity of Anonymous Coward, please contact your local TIPS snitch.
Regards,
Anonymous Government Offician
Privacy in the electronic age has become a massive, intractable paradox. People are terrified about the ability of corporations to track their lives, but the world economy has come to depend upon all-seeing computer systems.
I'm not sure "terrified" is a word I would use..."deeply concerned" yes, but not "terrified". If people were terrified, then people wouldn't use technologies like the Mobil SpeedPass, the I-Pass for Illinois' automated tollbooths, or even credit/debit cards.
People scream for privacy, yet at the same time use online banking, crecit cards, and unencrypted e-mail. It was pointed out in a particular blog that RFID tags such as what Benneton or Michelin have proposed to use are a very deep threat to privacy...amongst other abuses, stalkers could conceivably use the technology to track their victims. While true, it is also unlikely, as tracking would require placing RFID scanners in strategic locations and linking to them. Not impossible, but improbable.
"Dragging all human behavior into the public is literally totalitarian," said Bob Blakely, chief security and privacy scientist for IBM's Tivoli Systems. "If you erode privacy, you erode liberty, because people don't tolerate things going on in front of them that they don't approve of."
I would tend to think that all human behavior is public in some fashion, technology or no. If you do not want your shopping/eating habits known to the general public, then don't shop or eat in public places. Anybody who has sat on a park bench and just watched people go about their lives can tell you a lot about human behavior, since it is so public. It's like the arguement regarding women who wear revealing clothing then get mad when men look at them. If you don't want me looking (note I said look, not leer) at your cleavage, then don't wear the ultra-low cut supertight t-shirt that shows nearly all to the world.
On the other hand, few people really want to restrict the flow of information. Search engines such as Google have made the world a smaller and far more accessible place. Collaboration among researchers on diseases such as SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) would be far more difficult without the ability to share patient data rapidly.
Very true. We are a "live in the now" society, wanting what we want when we want it. Instant messaging, downloaded music, instant credit for thos big purchases are such examples of an "immediate need" society. We have a need, we want it fufilled NOW. Not ten minutes from now, not in a few days, but NOW. Remember when eyeglasses took several weeks to get? Now you can walk into a Sterling Optical, get your eyes checked, and, you have your new glasses ready to go home with you.
Ultimately, though, business, government and individuals are going to have to agree to a compromise. Companies will likely have to take consumers' objections more into consideration when it comes to collecting or selling personal data. The legal fees and fines that come with misusing data will also help whip businesses into line, said John Tomaszewski, chief privacy officer at CheckFree, which specializes in payment systems.
Total agreement here. What information I give to you isn't really your information. It is still mine, but I am loaning it to you so you can provide the goods/services I am arranging, and that is it. No more, no less. If I haven't agreed to let you use my information for any other purpose, then you have no permission to do so. In a sense, your personal information is copyrighted (that dreaded word, I know) by you and is only released under your terms.
My two cents for the evening.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"Remember that this is corporate America and the U.S. government with which we are dealing. The chance of their gathering data correctly, let alone devising a way to use it to their advantage, is remote."
Yes, that's quite true. Woefully, the chance of their gathering it incorrectly, taking no useful advantage of it and incidentally screwing over thousands of people's lives is pretty huge based on prior track records....
What people always forget is that most of the damage caused by large beauracracies is not caused by the focused, well-managed efforts of sinister authority figures. It's usually the broken bungling of incompetent peons who have been given a pointless role to serve and are terrified that someone will realize that fact.