I always thought the term smart card was a bit..Oh I don't know, unfounded? It has a digital signature, great, what happens when it's stolen? And used against the owner? I'd like to see a card that had an image of your retina so they could tell if it was you, the eye has so many patterns, its almost impossible to fake. Cosmetics can already make someone look like someone else, but they havent figured out to replicate the eye yet...
the eye has so many patterns, its almost impossible to fake
Interesting use of the word "almost" there. So, what happens if/when a method to fake arbitrary retinal patterns is developed?
The great thing about usernames and passwords, PINs, etc, is that if you have reason to think that someone else knows it, you can change it. You can't change your retinal pattern, or any other biometric data.
If someone manages to fake your thumb print or retinal pattern, you're stuffed - you can't change them, and if that's the only official method of identifcation, you can't even revoke them and use a PIN.
Besides, the problem isn't people managing to copy retinal patterns, its people managing to fool detectors into accepting other patterns, or even a photograph of the correct eye...
Re:I'm in conflict...
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
"national ID card" : bad
Why is that bad? How is it any different from a damn driver's license in the states? It's not. You think a cop in one state can't get your info just as fast as one in another? And do you realize how much easier it would be to write software if the whole country used the same damn format? And how much easier it would be for you to have one number to remember?
Java : good
Java sucks. Slow junk. Ugly. You can always tell a Java app from another. Pathetic.
What does java actuall add to an id card?
by
yintercept
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
I am actually confused by the article. An "ID card" pretty much just carries data...not a full programming environment. Sounds more like business name branding.
The important part of an id card is the interface and how you access and change the information. Such an interface is first and foremost a hardware interface. Trying to say that the card belongs to computer language x doesn't make any sense.
As for functionality, would you as a business really want to record important information on a card that is easily lost, physically compromisable, and carried by a person? What businesses want is simply a verifiable id for customers. The simpler the id the better.
What's all this noise about antiquities? Try pumping an antiquity in your Surburban and see where it gets you.
There only real negative to a digital card is that companies can start asking for them and easily start filling their databases with your information.
Manually copying down information from the front of the card is far too time consuming and obvious. Plus, you can only fit so much information on it.
There are of course technical ways to design digital ID systems and laws you can put in place to prevent this from happening on any kind of scale, but I fear these cards were not designed with privacy in mind.
-- The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
Re:im not for it
by
CommieOverlord
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
You mean like the potential for abusing driver's licenses, SSN cards, health-care cards, birth certificates? There are already plenty of national or state/provincal cards out there. Abuse happens, but obviously they're good for something or they wouldn't be here.
Actually, I think you *do* get it - and unfortunately, many folks seem to be overlooking the obvious in their quest for a higher-tech and more convenient lifestyle.
There simply won't be any more guarantee that any of us are really who we claim to be, just because we hold a "smartcard" that identifies us as being a certain person.
In fact, most banks/lenders currently require 3 forms of I.D. to do such things as open a new checking account. That's because the closest thing to a guarantee of identity they have is forcing you to provide multiple proofs. Putting all the proverbial eggs in one basket, as a smartcard does, doesn't make much sense to me.
Re:FYI
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 1, Insightful
Unless you are driving, you are not required to carry anything. Please cite the law that requires ID.
Re:Can it be updated with GJC?
by
robslimo
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
Say... by my reckoning and based on your sig, you oughta be posting AC. Freakin' troll. - - - - - - on a more serious note - - - - -
Having Read The Fine Article and a few earlier posts, I'd have to say:
(a) National ID's are bad (good) (b) Java is bad (good) (c) how the bloody hell is anyone going to make 'smart cards' smart enough to prevent [ID] theft?
If, after all these years, Hughes (DirecTV) and others have not been able to prevent signal theft using 'smart card' technology, how safe should we feel entrusting our personal identification to this tech?
"Ohh!," say some, "this is safer yet than the old methods of identifying us to our government. This is much safer than an easily forged picture ID."
But this technology *is* assumed to be 'safer'. It is assumed to be (and marketed as) 'secure'. That also means that our govn'ts may assume that it is *true*. If a transaction, waypoint in your vacation journey, or an arrest is logged in your 'Nat'l ID' account, it will be assumed to be true... because it's safe and secure technology, right? They may be much less likely to doubt any misinformation in you recored, so think again about DTV and how secure their system is. Please think.
Easily defeated?
by
Pettifogger
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Yeah, but just how durable is this chip? I personally took offense at the magnetic strip on my driver's license, and it just so happened that my ID had an unfortunate "accidental" experience with a large, powerful electromagnet.
If I get one of these new java IDs forced on me, it might just be "accidentally" directly exposed to 1500 watts of RF. Maybe "accidentally" take a spin on the turntable in the microwave, too.
So what's the point of making this stuff if the people who don't like it can easily defeat it?
--
IAAL
Who do you want to be today?
by
billstewart
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Sigh. The current SSN system is bad enough, but at least as Americans we didn't used to need no stinkin' badges. Until we get rid of a using a single national identifier number for everything, identity theft will be an increasing problem, and consumer tracking and electronically-assisted stalking and corrupt clerks selling license cards and control of individuals by taking away their IDs or licenses will just keep increasing.
Unfortunately, the concept of giving people a stack of uncorrelatable tax ID numbers that they can give to different people who need them is complex-sounding enough that if it's ever implemented, it'll probably be done on a smart card of some sort (or a dumb memory card rather than a processor-equipped card.)
--
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Why is national id cards / numbers bad ?
by
Simon+Lyngshede
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Being Danish I was given a social security number when I was born, works just like a national id. My social security card work pretty much like an national id card, you sometimes need some sort of picture id in combination with the social security card.
The only thing I hate is that it doesn't include more "features". I what to use it as a credit card, drives license, access card to the university and so on. Having an all purpose id card would make my life a lot easier. Why is national id cards a bad idea? Are people afraid that the government will track them. Who really gives a fuck if it allows the government to track you with it? They could do that anyway if they really cared enough. I simply don't get it.
Please tell me why national ids are bad. Who are you people afraid of ? Im tired of hearing that national ids are bad, without being given a good reason. So fare I just heared "National id, bad" and it's every time Slashdot brings it up. Only once have I hear of misuse in Denmark and that was due of lack of security at the post office, not really something you can blame the system for.
Re:Why is national id cards / numbers bad ?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
I believe the argument goes:
We only really want to track whitches. Oh, now we only want to track Jews, Jehova's Whitnesses, gays, and political dissidents. Oh, strike that, now we only want to track communists. Strike that, now we only want to track Arabs, I mean big bad terrorists. Now put your vauables in that pile, your clother over there and go take your shower with all of the other accused unlawful combatants and enemy supporters in protective custody.
Fear of revolution keeps governments inline. What got IBM so in trouble for aiding in the Holocaust? Providing administrative tabulation machines that helped keep records on the Jews, J.W.'s. gays, etc. and made rounding up and keeping them more efficient. The first thing rising dictatoships/McCarthyist do is better control weapons and keep better tabs on people. I don't want a revolution-proof government. I don't want a revolution, but I think the government should fear its people and prevent revolution by keeping them happy rather than bullying the people.
Martin Luther King was imprisoned. Attack dogs and fire hoses were turned on peaceful civil rights demonstrations. We don't really want a society without "crime", we want a society without injustice. Sometimes some crimes bring back the justice. Martin Luther King was a righteous criminal.
Stamping out crime means stamping out dissent. Don't fool yourself. Learn from history. Anonymity threatens the law much more than it threatens justice. I can murder someone just as easily if Seven-Eleven needs to phone my fingerprint and super-secure government ID number in to the poliez in order to sell me a loaf of bread. I want an injustice-free society, not a crime-free society.
I think argument number 1 is a little paranoid, but it has some truth to it. I think argument number 2 is much better.
Argument number 2 is that people are stupid. People know current IDs can be faked. The new "fake proof" IDs will be fakable with more effort, but nobody will believe you when you say you've been the victim of identity theft. National IDs help people become sheeple.
Re:Why is national id cards / numbers bad ?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 1, Insightful
You are very fortunate that you have never been harrassed by the police.
It would be quite a reasonable guess that you have white skin and well off (typical profile of the average slashdotter), but you might not be.
And this is the main problem with systematic surveillance by the government; it is much too easy to misinterpret the information that is gathered to make false conclusions about you.
National ID cards makes it possible to cross-reference data from many sources and store it forever, and the information that is gathered may be incomplete, or worse, incorrect. Who will watch the system to ensure abuses won't occur?
Do you play violent video games? Do you like watching porn? drink lots of beer?
Worse still, do you know for certain that you do not have any genetically inhereted diseases?
How would you like it if your employer or your health insurance company knew that you have a family history (and therefore through genetics you have a greater chance) of alcoholism or mental illness, even though you don't have any of those diseases?
You might trust your government's word that they'll won't abuse the power that has been granted, but can you trust your government and their actions in 50 years time? Governments always try to overstep the powers that they've been given.
Even if you have "nothing to hide", imagine this scenerio in a police state with cameras everywhere:
Someone stops you on the street and asks for directions. You tell him what he wants to know, and maybe chat for a moment. Then he goes on his way.
What you don't know is that on the police screen, biometrics has identified him - rightly or wrongly - as a suspected terrorist. And, of course, your name and address are available too. The watchers have no way of knowing what was said, just that you met and talked.
So does this mean you should run like hell if anyone you don't know wants to talk to you incase he/she is a criminal? Should you think twice before you buy that book or video game incase future employers misinterpret your personality? Should you watch what you say on the phone incase its tapped by the police?
I think this quote from a speech made by the Canada's Privacy Commission sums it up quite nicely:
If you have to go through life knowing that everywhere you go, everyone you meet, everything you do, may be observed, scrutinized, cross-referenced, judged, maybe misinterpreted and used against you by persons unknown, by authorities of the state - if you have to go through life like that, you are not truly free.
Why is the gut reaction "bad"?
by
claes
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
In Sweden, id cards needs to conform to certain standards, that are set by the same authority that standardizes many other things (www.sis.se). I do not know the details of this, but I think it is good that it is under control of a government authority. There is nothing mandatory with carrying them around, or even having them. We don't call them national id cards either, but they are accepted as id-cards everywhere. In Sweden that is... since they don't have the nationality of the owner on them, they are no good for travelling within Schengen yet.
It all comes down in what ways you trust your government of course. In this regard I trust it. For example, the nationality thing was hotly debated, since the reason we don't have nationality is that it would be discriminating for non-swedish citizens to have their nationality on them. Or so it was argued. But the government had to change for public opinion because of this, being part of Schengen is not really good if you still need passport when travelling...
Re:I'm in conflict...
by
nutshell42
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Well, let's take a short look at my ID (German), it contains:
photograph
name
date and location of birth
nationality
date of expiry
signature
address
height
eye-color
the authority which validated it
and the date when it was printed
So, which thing exactly is so much worse about that than about your driver's license?
-- Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Re:I'm in conflict...
by
vrt3
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
I don't really get this: you hate national ID cards, but you have no problem with using driver licenses as an ID? Only difference I see is that someone who doesn't learn how to drive (assuming that such people exist in your country) doesn't have a driver license.
Frankly, I don't really see what's so wrong with national ID cards. Perhaps it's just because I'm so used to it (I am from Belgium), but could someone explain why they are such a bad thing?
-- This sig under construction. Please check back later.
Do you happen to be tall, attractive, white, upper middle-classed and born in the country in which you live?
How odd...these are the exact same people the police never seem to bother in any country...I wonder why?
Now imagine if you weren't...would you see compulsory ID cards in the same way?
-Nano.
Re:I'm in conflict...
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 1, Insightful
The "from" means that they're not US citizens, otherwise they'd be "from" the US (whether nationalized or born here).
If you're a visitor to someone else's home, then they have a right to track you while you're in their home. If you don't like that, don't visit their home.
Re:Good or bad?
by
Saib0t
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
but I'm not sure if making it a national ID card is the best idea.
As a belgian citizen, I can tell you that we already have a mandatory national ID card, so it's not much of a point.
My national ID card has this on it:
a picture
Name
Given Names
Sex
Date of Birth
Place of Birth
Signing authority
My signature
Address
ID Card Number (2 of them)
Spouse
Children names
It bears several things on it that make its counterfeiting difficult (like a nice color changing hologram-like shape of the country)
The government can easily use this against the people and the privacy concerns are enormous.
All these concerns are very legit in the USA, but from the people I have talked to, this is the "only" country where people are so afraid of being bigbrothered. I have a national ID card and I use it very seldom, and I really don't have the feeling that it is being used as a way to track my habbits down.
On the other hand, my bank uses that ID number in their files, so does my social security company (social security is built in into the belgian system, but you have to have a "company" paying your stuff), and if I could, I'd actually encourage all these government bodies who require identification at one point or another to create that database, and give access to information about me on a need basis.
The problem does not come from the traceability, these problem are a minor concern compared to the advantages.
The real problem comes from trusting your government. The belgian political landscape (if I may speak of it thus) consists in dozens of parties, with 5 or 6 big players. This ensures that the same person don't stay in power very long if they don't do a good job, and there ARE alternatives to what is in place at the moment, and it's always a coalition of several parties that is running the country. This is one of the reasons I trust my government (to a large extent).
Trust is the real problem...
--
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
Slashdot Mirror
I always thought the term smart card was a bit..Oh I don't know, unfounded? It has a digital signature, great, what happens when it's stolen? And used against the owner? I'd like to see a card that had an image of your retina so they could tell if it was you, the eye has so many patterns, its almost impossible to fake. Cosmetics can already make someone look like someone else, but they havent figured out to replicate the eye yet...
"national ID card" : bad
Why is that bad? How is it any different from a damn driver's license in the states? It's not. You think a cop in one state can't get your info just as fast as one in another? And do you realize how much easier it would be to write software if the whole country used the same damn format? And how much easier it would be for you to have one number to remember?
Java : good Java sucks. Slow junk. Ugly. You can always tell a Java app from another. Pathetic.
I am actually confused by the article. An "ID card" pretty much just carries data...not a full programming environment. Sounds more like business name branding.
The important part of an id card is the interface and how you access and change the information. Such an interface is first and foremost a hardware interface. Trying to say that the card belongs to computer language x doesn't make any sense.
As for functionality, would you as a business really want to record important information on a card that is easily lost, physically compromisable, and carried by a person? What businesses want is simply a verifiable id for customers. The simpler the id the better.
What's all this noise about antiquities? Try pumping an antiquity in your Surburban and see where it gets you.
There only real negative to a digital card is that companies can start asking for them and easily start filling their databases with your information.
Manually copying down information from the front of the card is far too time consuming and obvious. Plus, you can only fit so much information on it.
There are of course technical ways to design digital ID systems and laws you can put in place to prevent this from happening on any kind of scale, but I fear these cards were not designed with privacy in mind.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
You mean like the potential for abusing driver's licenses, SSN cards, health-care cards, birth certificates? There are already plenty of national or state/provincal cards out there. Abuse happens, but obviously they're good for something or they wouldn't be here.
Actually, I think you *do* get it - and unfortunately, many folks seem to be overlooking the obvious in their quest for a higher-tech and more convenient lifestyle.
There simply won't be any more guarantee that any of us are really who we claim to be, just because we hold a "smartcard" that identifies us as being a certain person.
In fact, most banks/lenders currently require 3 forms of I.D. to do such things as open a new checking account. That's because the closest thing to a guarantee of identity they have is forcing you to provide multiple proofs. Putting all the proverbial eggs in one basket, as a smartcard does, doesn't make much sense to me.
Unless you are driving, you are not required to carry anything. Please cite the law that requires ID.
Say... by my reckoning and based on your sig, you oughta be posting AC. Freakin' troll.
- - - - - - on a more serious note - - - - -
Having Read The Fine Article and a few earlier posts, I'd have to say:
(a) National ID's are bad (good)
(b) Java is bad (good)
(c) how the bloody hell is anyone going to make 'smart cards' smart enough to prevent [ID] theft?
If, after all these years, Hughes (DirecTV) and others have not been able to prevent signal theft using 'smart card' technology, how safe should we feel entrusting our personal identification to this tech?
"Ohh!," say some, "this is safer yet than the old methods of identifying us to our government. This is much safer than an easily forged picture ID."
But this technology *is* assumed to be 'safer'. It is assumed to be (and marketed as) 'secure'. That also means that our govn'ts may assume that it is *true*. If a transaction, waypoint in your vacation journey, or an arrest is logged in your 'Nat'l ID' account, it will be assumed to be true... because it's safe and secure technology, right? They may be much less likely to doubt any misinformation in you recored, so think again about DTV and how secure their system is. Please think.
If I get one of these new java IDs forced on me, it might just be "accidentally" directly exposed to 1500 watts of RF. Maybe "accidentally" take a spin on the turntable in the microwave, too.
So what's the point of making this stuff if the people who don't like it can easily defeat it?
IAAL
Unfortunately, the concept of giving people a stack of uncorrelatable tax ID numbers that they can give to different people who need them is complex-sounding enough that if it's ever implemented, it'll probably be done on a smart card of some sort (or a dumb memory card rather than a processor-equipped card.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Being Danish I was given a social security number when I was born, works just like a national id. My social security card work pretty much like an national id card, you sometimes need some sort of picture id in combination with the social security card.
The only thing I hate is that it doesn't include more "features". I what to use it as a credit card, drives license, access card to the university and so on. Having an all purpose id card would make my life a lot easier. Why is national id cards a bad idea? Are people afraid that the government will track them. Who really gives a fuck if it allows the government to track you with it? They could do that anyway if they really cared enough. I simply don't get it.
Please tell me why national ids are bad. Who are you people afraid of ? Im tired of hearing that national ids are bad, without being given a good reason. So fare I just heared "National id, bad" and it's every time Slashdot brings it up. Only once have I hear of misuse in Denmark and that was due of lack of security at the post office, not really something you can blame the system for.
In Sweden, id cards needs to conform to certain standards, that are set by the same authority that standardizes many other things (www.sis.se). I do not know the details of this, but I think it is good that it is under control of a government authority. There is nothing mandatory with carrying them around, or even having them. We don't call them national id cards either, but they are accepted as id-cards everywhere. In Sweden that is... since they don't have the nationality of the owner on them, they are no good for travelling within Schengen yet.
It all comes down in what ways you trust your government of course. In this regard I trust it. For example, the nationality thing was hotly debated, since the reason we don't have nationality is that it would be discriminating for non-swedish citizens to have their nationality on them. Or so it was argued. But the government had to change for public opinion because of this, being part of Schengen is not really good if you still need passport when travelling...
photograph
name
date and location of birth
nationality
date of expiry
signature
address
height
eye-color
the authority which validated it
and the date when it was printed
So, which thing exactly is so much worse about that than about your driver's license?
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Frankly, I don't really see what's so wrong with national ID cards. Perhaps it's just because I'm so used to it (I am from Belgium), but could someone explain why they are such a bad thing?
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
Do you happen to be tall, attractive, white, upper middle-classed and born in the country in which you live?
How odd...these are the exact same people the police never seem to bother in any country...I wonder why?
Now imagine if you weren't...would you see compulsory ID cards in the same way?
-Nano.
The "from" means that they're not US citizens, otherwise they'd be "from" the US (whether nationalized or born here).
If you're a visitor to someone else's home, then they have a right to track you while you're in their home. If you don't like that, don't visit their home.
My national ID card has this on it:
a picture
Name
Given Names
Sex
Date of Birth
Place of Birth
Signing authority
My signature
Address
ID Card Number (2 of them)
Spouse
Children names
It bears several things on it that make its counterfeiting difficult (like a nice color changing hologram-like shape of the country)
All these concerns are very legit in the USA, but from the people I have talked to, this is the "only" country where people are so afraid of being bigbrothered. I have a national ID card and I use it very seldom, and I really don't have the feeling that it is being used as a way to track my habbits down. On the other hand, my bank uses that ID number in their files, so does my social security company (social security is built in into the belgian system, but you have to have a "company" paying your stuff), and if I could, I'd actually encourage all these government bodies who require identification at one point or another to create that database, and give access to information about me on a need basis.The problem does not come from the traceability, these problem are a minor concern compared to the advantages.
The real problem comes from trusting your government. The belgian political landscape (if I may speak of it thus) consists in dozens of parties, with 5 or 6 big players. This ensures that the same person don't stay in power very long if they don't do a good job, and there ARE alternatives to what is in place at the moment, and it's always a coalition of several parties that is running the country. This is one of the reasons I trust my government (to a large extent).
Trust is the real problem...
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence