MoneyDance 2003 Reviewed

TheMadPenguin writes "For those of you who may not have heard, MoneyDance 2003 was released on March 28th, 2003 for general public consumption. It is available for Linux, MacOS X, and also Windows. Geared toward current Intuit Quicken and Microsoft Money users, MoneyDance 2003 is packed full of features. It's reviewed at MadPenguin.org."

Comments

MoneyDance is a good start...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just curious when MoneyDinner, MoneyMovie, and MoneyGoBackToMyPlace are scheduled for release!

Re:MoneyDance is a good start...

[Gen. Fault]

I'm just curious when MoneyDinner, MoneyMovie, and MoneyGoBackToMyPlace are scheduled for release!

And soon after that (I hope) is MoneyShot!

Moneydance

[lostchicken]

It's not free. See Here.
However, GNUCash will run on all the platforms listed, and is free.

Re:Moneydance

[override11]

I dont believe the article said ANYWHERE it was free.

Because it will run on Linux, you assume it is? You know,, Linux will never become the de-facto OS if people are not willing to PAY for developers to make software for it.

Re:Moneydance

[jdreed1024]

However, GNUCash [gnucash.org] will run on all the platforms listed, and is free.

First of all, GNUcash does not run on Windows without much frobbing. Yes, I know we don't like Windows 'round these parts, but there are plenty of folks who do. Secondly, GNUcash is not designed to be a drop-in replacement for Quicken. This program clearly is. I just downloaded the Windows version, and I'm happy with it. I'll never use MS Money or Quicken again.

If we want Linux to succeed, we have to acknowledge that there is room for proprietary software. (Linus has the right idea - leave it up to the users to decide what they want to use it for). If you don't like proprietary software, don't use it. But Free Software is about Freedom. Kind of like the Freedom to run whatever programs you want. If GNUcash is a better program than Moneydance, then Moneydance will die, without any assistance from the zealots. If, OTOH, Moneydance fills another niche, then both will survive.

Like it or not, software like this is vital to getting Linux on the desktop. If people want to pay, let them pay. But let them decide which they like better - don't presume to dictate their software choice to them. GNUcash takes effort to set up, especially on some MacOS X and Windows. Sure, it's not a _LOT_ of effort, but it's more than the standard "double click install.exe" that folks are used to.

I'm getting tired of seeing responses to every non-free Linux program mentioned on /. along the lines of "Boo, it's proprietary, use $bar instead". If you know of and use a better, l33ter program to accomplish the same task, then maybe, just maybe, you're not the intended audience of the new piece of software. In that case, don't use it. But why disparage it in front of potential users? Sure, there are some things to be worried about. Like when MS releases Office and Windows Media Player for Linux, I'll start to get nervous, and recommened OpenOffice and Mplayer instead. But when a company comes along with a good product, and sells it for a reasonable price, don't bitch just for the sake of bitching.

Lastly, let's not forget the goal of this program. A drop in replacement for Quicken, available for Linux, OS X, and Windows. The last platform is perhaps the MOST important. The installation on Windows is as easy as any other Windows program. And it reads QIF files. And it has most Quicken features. But it's not Quicken. And this is excellent. Because guess who makes Quicken? Our good friends at Intuit, makers of the wonderful TurboTax with activiation that we were all bitching about a while back. If Intuit can lose some market share because of this program, it's still a good thing. Because it's taking people away from a company that treats their customers like criminals.

Re:Moneydance

[Narcissus]

Wow. You've been using a hacked financial management application for "a few years now" and still haven't been able to work out how to save enough cash to "afford anything any other way".

Assuming you live in America, the product costs $70 for the Premier SKU. You mean to tell me that this program, which has features to save you money, hasn't been able to save you the $1.95 per month for the last few years to be able to buy it?

Something doesn't seem quite right with what you're telling us...

Oh, and just out of curiousity: are those games you and your kids have pirated, too?

Gnucash is just fine

[Renegade Lisp]

A user's comment on this review at madpenguin.org states the obvious: What about GnuCash? It turns out that GnuCash is very comparable to this product in terms of features, and for somebody who'd rather stick with free software, there should be no rational need to buy MoneyDance.

I've been using GnuCash for my personal accounting for a year and a half now, and I must say that it's absolutely enough for all that I need (I'm a freelance consultant), and lots of interesting new features are on the horizon.

Re:Gnucash is just fine

[Angry White Guy]

Gnucash is a good program, but you better know how to use your ldd command to get the bastard installed. It relies on so many libraries that a newbie would get fed up with it and run quicken.

Great program when running, but horrible to get it there.

Re:Gnucash is just fine

[xiaix]

I remember those days. However the install has gotten much easier (at least for the lazy.) The Red Hat RPM installs fine through up2date, and the gentoo install also works without a hitch. Not a single dependency / library problem, although if you want to use the stock updates you may need to add some things via cpan.

I used to dual boot solely for Quicken, but that stopped years ago when they made internet explorer an integrated part of their product. I have been using Gnucash since, and with the new features in the 1.8 releases scheduled payments and billing customers for my home based business is easier than ever.

Still plan to check out the new moneydance when time (and server load) permits...

Re:Gnucash is just fine

[pongo000]

Imagine a world where all those people who would otherwise shell out $30 for MoneyDance would be willing to donate half of that to support "free" comparable software such as Gnucash.

Just imagine.

Re:Gnucash is just fine

[pmz]

Great program when running, but horrible to get it there.

All the other responses to this post say "just use apt-get" or "up2date" or "emerge this or that". That's all nice and dandy, but part of the freedom of Open Source is being able to compile from the source from the authors! Getting GNUCash to compile on Solaris, for example, is absolute torture. I don't want to know how much pain and suffering the people at Debian, Red Hat, and Gentoo had to go through to make their one-shot commands actually work.

IMO, the fact that GNUCash is so difficult to compile from source reflects badly upon its architecture and packaging. However, I do agree that it works well once it's in place.

Quicken for Mac

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a Quicken for Mac. I use it. It's right here. Really. I will resist swearing at you and calling you names because it's Friday.

conrad on gnucash

[Renegade Lisp]

More interesting than the review itself, here is conrad's comment from madpenguin.org (I'm including it below because the server is already slashdotted):

For those of you who would be prepared to pay money for Moneydance, can I recommend that you look at Gnucash and save your money. MadJudu waves his hand at Gnucash and dismisses it, and then goes on to praise MoneyDance for now doing what Gnucash has mostly been able to do for several years.

The Gnucash interface mightn't have the "lean and mean" look that MadJudu favours, but it is fairly simple and after a small amount of aclimatization (it is very different from quicken), you will (in my opinion) find it far more useful.

Gnucash does most of the other things MoneyDance does, plus a few extras. Gnucash can interface with HBCI (the German online computer banking standard). Gnucash doesn't have the budgeting features (yet), but does have simple Accounts Payable/Accounts Receivable functionality for people with slightly more complicated accounting requirements.

Most of the complaints and comments MadJudu makes about MoneyDance also apply to Gnucash. In fact, I almost wondered if MadJudu was reviewing Gnucash at times.

So, whats the biggest selling point for Gnucash over MoneyDance? Price! Why spend US$30, when the Gnucash developers charge you the princely sum of NOTHING in whatever currency you prefer. Same low price, always!

The biggest disadvantage (for those so afflicted) is that Gnucash does not run on any Microsoft OS. Linux, MacOS-X, and FreeBSD are available. Probably others too.

Get Gnucash from your favourite Linux distribution (its packaged by all major distributions), or visit http://www.gnucash.org/ for more details.

Re:conrad on gnucash

[tdvaughan]

I agree - GNUCash has been great for my fairly basic needs (once I got it installed that is - that really epitomised dependency hell for me and I still haven't installed Finance::Check properly). Since I'd never used a personal accounting package before the biggest hurdle was getting to grips with the concepts of double entry accounting. That was a really useful skill for me to pick up. And it isn't entirely bug-free (some of the reporting functions didn't work properly but in day-to-day use it's been fine) but the devs were always helpful on their IRC channel, even with questions I realised were stupid afterwards.

Delete protection

[mccalli]

From the review: Deleting a transaction is quick and painless by selecting the transaction you want to delete and pressing the Delete Button. And as an added delight it doesn't ask you the obnoxious question "Are you sure?"

But these are my accounts! I want to be protected against accidently deleting things. To take a random example, suppose I think I've clicked into a text field to start typing, whereas what I've really done is just highlighted the whole transation. I press delete and...

Oops. Hope I still have the bank statements for that one. I'll enjoy tracking the discrepency down, I'm sure...

Sometimes, it's good to have confirmation required before performing a destructive task. Imagine a similar review saying "And better still, no pesky usage screen or prompt - just typing the command name instantly low-level formats your SCSI RAID array...".

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Delete protection

[BiAthlon]

Rather than keep me from doing something how about having a robust undo function.

You just deleted a transaction. Oops, didn't mean to do that. Undo. Viola! Everything is back the way it was and no stupid "Are you really sure you want to do what you just said you wanted to do" prompts.

MonkeyDance?

[quebeck]

Did anyone else read this as "MonkeyDance 2003" and think it was some Steve Ballmer rave event?

Warning -

[vasqzr]

This site is NOTHING like Hampster Dance!!

Re:Warning -

[Enry]

Where's the "duck hunt" option for that web site?

Just type in the damn URL, mkay?

[Rinikusu]

Maybe they don't like the /. referral tags?

Again for all the "free software people" and the million and one "JUST USE GNUCASH!" folks, here is something for you:

Free software may be fine and dandy, but some of us don't actually mind *paying* for software if said software does the job well. Shocking, isn't it? Free is not the end all, all encompassing criteria for a great majority of computer users out there. I know, you're trying to change that, but face it: Commercial software is not inherently evil, Proprietary software is not evil, RMS be damned.

Here's something to ponder: With OpenSource software, I get the source and I can tweak the software any which way I want! Yay! So, after I spend a few weeks poking my way around the source code and finally figuring out where and how to make the changes I need, I could've just gone down to BestBuy and bought another copy of Money or Quicken and have been done with it. What I'm buying is *convenience*. Ever notice that the QuickEMart on the corner sells stuff at quite a premium over the grocery store down the street? Convenience. Sometimes convenience costs money, and I'm willing to pay the "tax" to get something now, not 3 weeks from now.

Re:Just type in the damn URL, mkay?

[sultanoslack]

Sadly you've missed the point of Free Software.

• Free Software isn't software that you don't pay for. You must be new here.
• Let's say you want to integrate i.e. Quicken / GnuCash into your business. There are features in there that are valuable to you and not available in any package (i.e. things specific to your workflow). Sure, you might have to pay one of the local geeks [EUR/$]1000 to hack that feature in, but you can't do that for any price with most proprietary software.
• See point one again. If you want stuff from Free Software, you might have to pay for it. But I assure you that people exist that will cater to your whims for a price. :-)

Re:Just type in the damn URL, mkay?

[Zigg]

So, after I spend a few weeks poking my way around the source code and finally figuring out where and how to make the changes I need, I could've just gone down to BestBuy and bought another copy of Money or Quicken and have been done with it. What I'm buying is *convenience*.

Of course you are, but you are assuming that you absolutely will be able to buy the feature you want by swinging on down to the store and buying your copy of whatever. Simply because you're in the store waving your credit card around doesn't make the feature you want magically appear.

You see, if the vendor doesn't think the feature you want is worth implementing, it won't get implemented; proprietary software developers are generally paranoid about giving you the means to implement it or pay someone else to implement it.

Re:Just type in the damn URL, mkay?

[$rtbl_this]

I can't help but get the feeling that you're confusing the ability to modify the source code with some kind of necessity to do so. Most of the open source software I use does what I want without me having to change a single line of code, as does most of the equivalent closed source. The difference is that if a program doesn't do something I want and it's open source I can do something more constructive about it than submit feature requests, wait and hope not to get fobbed off.

Re:Just type in the damn URL, mkay?

[mjwise]

You're pretty new here, relatively speaking, but that's not really important.

Why, back when I was young first posts meant somethin'...oh well...anyway...

Sometimes the best solution may be to use a proprietary product for awhile, while you work on a longer term free software solution.

But let's say you pay some geek $1000 to hack GnuCash to do exactly what you need. You've basically branched out a tree for yourself. Now a new GnuCash release comes out that fixes, say, a few critical bugs and has a few spiffy new features you'd love to have, but now you have to merge this new version into your version. There goes $500 to Mr. Consultant Geek again, and so on and so forth. The flexibility of being able to put in new features is quite nice, but it has a pricetag, and you may create a situation where you have to maintain software in-house or have to pay a consultant $$$ for maintenance. Free, perhaps, but still plenty expensive.

Re:Just type in the damn URL, mkay?

[sreilly]

You're pretty new here, relatively speaking, but that's not really important.

You're pretty new here yourself, Mr. 6869. :) Isn't everything relative?

On the other hand, relying on a proprietary product means that features you want or require depend upon the developer. If it doesn't meet your needs today, you have no way to ensure it ever will. If your needs change over time, you don't have the ability to adapt the software to your new requirements.

Although in the case of Moneydance, there's an open API and plugin mechanism that lets you add the features yourself. Apparently the only remaining advantage of GnuCash in this case is that it is free-as-in-beer. Although as the saying goes, for some people, it's only free if your time has no value.

Mirrors

[brejc8]

Mirror here.

Re:MoneyDance on Linux -- Huh?

[MCRocker]

What? It's a Java application. It works the same on both systems. Heck, I've been using MoneyDance for years on OS/2 and find that it works just great. Platform should make no difference at all.

You must be thinking of something else or using a really bad JVM on Linux. Some older linuxen use Kafe as their default JVM and Kafe has lots of bugs. Perhaps that's your problem. Try it with Blackdown's JVM instead.

The article didn't say it...

[radio4fan]

... but it was from the free-money-programs-but-no-free-money dept.

Re:Moneydance :: WRONG

[ravenwing_np]

However, GNUCash will run on all the platforms listed

How can you sleep at night when you tell us such lies? No where on the site do I see anything about running on Windows. If you are trying to move people from away from MS software, you have to do it slowly to give them a chance to cope.

Re:one of

[mental_telepathy]

When did you switch to Mac? I have had Quicken on my mac since 1999. They have kept pretty current, as well. Downloading financial transactions took some time, but is available in the most recent version.

Real Coup for MoneyDance and users

[MCRocker]

This release is a real coup for MoneyDance's author, Sean Reilly. A while ago, he sold MoneyDance to Apgen. At first this worked out really well because they added a lot of resources to the project and development really took off.

Unfortunately, when Apgen's fortunes started to fade with the end of the .com bubble, the MoneyDance staff was slowly laid off until even Sean was let go.

Like many other zombie probjects, the MoneyDance web page was not taken down and Apgen was still selling it even though nobody was home. There was no support at all. The mailing list was a scary place then. It took months for people to figure out what was going on. Apgen didn't respond at all to help requests and the list turned to a big discussion on what the alternatives were.

Somehow, Sean managed to get the rights to MoneyDance back just a few months ago and started working on the new version that he just released.

Lots of good ideas have sunk in the last year or so of economic trouble in the software industry. Most will never resurface and have been lost forever. This is a real coup for Sean and the MoneyDance users that Sean was able to resurect this fine project and produce a new version in such a short time.

The Apgen folks have been very quiet about the whole thing for obvious reasons, but I think they are an example to follow. They made a valiant effort to promote MoneyDance, but when it didn't work out they set MoneyDance free instead of locking it up and throwing away the key. For some strange reason, this isn't the norm.

GNUcash doesn't run on windows

[scpotter]

However, GNUCash will run on all the platforms listed, and is free. Actually, GNUcash doesn't run on windows, the third 'platform' listed. Unless you're using a more narrow definition of platform than most.

Re:GNUcash doesn't run on windows

[pmz]

Actually, GNUcash doesn't run on windows, the third 'platform' listed.

True. Actually, it isn't portable beyond systems that have GNOME 1.4 and a plethora of other libraries installed. It's also GTK-based. The huge number of dependencies in GNUCash are its greatest portability weakness, IMO. I doubt it would ever run on Windows without substantial re-engineering.

Re:MoneyDance on Linux -- Huh?

[Apreche]

The trueness. Even in Mandrake 9 it uses kaffe instead of sun java. You have to install sun java yourself, which is easy enough. But you have to replace the symbolic links in /usr/bin with ones that point to the sun java. When I tried to install jython I realized this.

I'm kind of dissapointed about this MoneyDance program though. It looks like it's really cool and simple. Which is just what I need because I don't do complicated things with my money. But it's a java program, and it isn't free as in beer or speech. If I had extra money to spend on software I wouldn't need a money managing program.

Kupo Kupo!

[JessLeah]

If Mog does the Money Dance, does he start tossing GP at enemies? And what does it change the background to? O_o

Palm version

[DoorFrame]

One of the reasons that I'm able to keep track of my finances is that there's a Palm Pilot Quicken tool which allows me to track everything I do throughout the day, even when I'm nowhere near a computer to enter the transaction. Without this tool remembering every expense was getting extremely difficult and I was considering giving up on the project.

Now, before I even consider looking at this program, does it have a similar attachment?

Re:Palm version

[MCRocker]

No, it does not.

However, there is an extension mechanism developer's toolkit, so you could add a synchronization mechanism.

Porting or creating a mini version might be difficult because Palm's Java support is somewhat lacking. It would probably be a lot of work to get a port of MoneyDance working on J2ME, MID Profile.

Re:Palm version

[cyberassasin]

There is a Palm Sync Extension... Available here

It will support a variety of palm checkbook apps, such as Pocket Money, Splash Money, and the Palm Expense app..

Works well...

Good Luck

You pay for convenience

[Necroman]

As your parent post said, you are paying for convenience. This really falls into a time is money kinda thing.

Sometimes I want software that just works, and I need it right now. I don't want to have to download some open source program, get that working on whatever machine I have, then find out the X feature is not implemented yet or has a few bugs in it.

For the most part, commercial software will pass this test. You can normally just read the back of the box and it will tell you the features it has, and if it is right for you. If that is not enough, then maybe read a review or 2 online.

This falls under the same reason as why I keep a Windows machine around, convenience. I don't want to find this great app that is Windows only, then try to get it to run under WINE. I want it to work right then and there. And sorry to say it, but Windows still has the largest market share, therefore it will have the most software released for it.

From a 4 year MD user...

[Johann]

I have used MD for about 4 years. It was the final piece of software that allowed me to delete Windows for ever. I am happy to see it return back to the capable hands of Sean Reilly. Appgen did nothing with it.

I have tried GNU Cash and while they have similar features, MD is *much* easer to use. MD has *way* better reporting and IMHO continue to have better support for on-line banking.

Hard-core Linux users may like GNU Cash. I certainly support the GNU project and I am grateful that GNU Cash is a viable alternative. But, if you have been using MS Money or Quicken, you probably will feel more comfortable using MD, especially 2003.

Another bonus for MD is that it is a Java application, so it will run on *any* platform. So, if you are still a dual-boot Linux/Windows user (why?), you can run MD on either one and not have to reboot simply to balance your checkbook.

BTW - $30 is a small price to pay for organized finances.
Jeff

Re:one of

[mccalli]

Reading the comments in this thread I'm guessing you're UK-based. I can understand the other posters being confused about your comments as Quicken is available in the US.

The lack of a UK Quicken version is the one thing stopping me getting a Mac. Seriously. I had other gripes before, but they've all been resolved one by one. I'm at the point where I'm considering getting one anyway and then running Quicken under VPC.

In the meantime, please email Intuit and tell them you want a version. I've done that, and got a polite response back saying that if there's enough interest it will be done. Of course, they won't know if there's any interest if nobody tells 'em...

Cheers,
Ian

QIF importing not good enough

[John_Sauter]

I use Intuit Quicken to track investments as well as my various accounts. Although Quicken claims to export data in QIF format, some information is missed or corrupted. The article warns of possible duplicate transactions, and the reviewer omitted two of his accounts because he didn't want to fix them up manually. He speculates that the problem is with the software that created the QIF files, and I have verified this by trying unsuccessfully to import a QIF file back into Intuit Quicken.

It appears that the only reliable way to read Quicken data is by reading its native files. Considering the years of carefully-verified data I have entered into Quicken, I will wait for a replacement that reads these files. I regret that I do not know the format of Quicken's native files, or have any source for that information.
John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)

Re:Defacto Misunderstanding

[override11]

See, there are 2 camps of Linux people.

People like yourself, who want a free open source OS, but care very little for the general public. F%#k em, you think, because they dont know about Linux, just let em fry with DRM and big brother breathing down windows update and back doors. Because they dont know linux they are beneath me.

Then there is the second type. These linux users enjoy helping other people out, and introducing them to a wonderful open source operating system. These type of users help others out on message boards, even when they are asked the same newbie question over and over, because they realize that there is a learning curve to a new OS.

Lets try and be a type 2 man, there are a lot of people out there who dont know anything about linux, or dont know enough to actually start USING it for everyday purposes. You flaming the boards just makes them want to stick with windows just to avoid your elitist bullshit attitude.
Grow up.

Another alternative (at least for Macs)

[Fished]

I particularly like Budget. Unlike GnuCash, Quicken, and MoneyDance the last time I tried it, it actually makes budgeting the central feature of the program rather than an afterthought. This is the foundation of managing your finances.

Let's face it... if you just want to balance your checkbook, you can do that in a spreadsheet.

I'll say it a million times...

[copponex]

First of all, let me preface this statement by the fact that I would do what I'm about to suggest, if I had any programming knowledge at all. I am reading books on XML and Java, but I know it will be months before I could start programming...

If anyone in the linux community wants to make millions of dollars, they need to create an accounting package that is designed for small businesses, AND as easy to use as quickbooks, AND can support an high number of simultaneous users (50 or so). I've looked at NOLA, ARIA, Compiere, Lazy8, SQL Ledger, and a ton of others, but no one even comes close to the interface and ease of installation in QuickBooks. You could even create an entire linux distro around the package, since many *many* small businesses don't have sales people doing anything but selling, writing e-mails, and looking up phone numbers.

The application can't be cobbled together between open source projects. It needs an integrated and have a consistent, intuitive interface. It needs to have in-depth reporting, with the ability to drill down inside the reports to locate specific information. It needs to have inventory control - in short, support for everything that the big boys do. And you don't have to even sell the program - just sell the support. This is, and has been, one of the biggest gaps in software that everyone knows about, but no one has tried to fix.

Re:I'll say it a million times...

[Tepar]

Um, the previous owner of MoneyDance, Appgen, has such a program. It's called MyBooks.

$99 for a 5 user license. You can use it standalone on one machine, of course, but to get the most bang for your $99, you need to install the server version on a Linux box, and the clients on your choice of Linux, MacOSX, or Windows.

I've been running it for a year, and it's been fantastic.

Re:I pay for working programs.

[On Lawn]

and it can be easily tailored.

So while you have the source code, this suggest to me that you've never looked at it.

Yet Another GnuCash post

[ek_adam]

I started using GnuCash a couple of weeks ago. I'm running it on a PowerMac G4 350MHz with Mac OS X 10.2.5. I used MoneyDance for about one year in 2001-2002. Then it was discontinued. With some annoying file corruption bugs unfixed and apparently unlikely to be fixed I switched back to Quicken. The current release happened after the original programmer finally got rights to the code he wrote for Appgen.

Now that I have it compiled, I am happier with GnuCash than I was with MoneyDance. One big advantage of GnuCash over MoneyDance for someone leaving Quicken? GnuCash is very good with QIF imports. MoneyDance produces way too many duplicate entries after a QIF import.

On the other hand, the lack of a GnuCash binary distribution for some platforms will push some people to MoneyDance. It took my computer over 12 hours to compile GnuCash and all of its dependencies. Loading MoneyDance took a minute or two.