Michael Robertson of Lindows Responds

Naturally, when answering your questions, he boosted his company. (Wouldn't you?) But I assure you, he wrote these answers himself instead of having them laundered by a PR team. Whether or not you agree with Michael and the way he runs Lindows (and used to run MP3.com) you've got to give him credit for speaking more openly than most other modern American CEOs.

1) why oh why?
by Ender Ryan

Why was it decided that Lindows would always run as 'root' by default? That seems like a pretty bad decision to me, and many others as it's the number 1 complaint of many Linux users who would otherwise like to give Lindows a try, but perhaps we should hear why that decision was made.

Is this how Lindows is going to continue to work in the future? I think this is one "feature" of Win9x that would really be better to leave in the past.

Robertson

I think the larger issue here is how do you balance security vs. ease of use. We are committed to providing a secure desktop operating system and make policy decisions about how to achieve a secure but usable system. For example, not plugging a computer into the 'Net would make it really secure, but not very usable. We did decide to build in a pre-configured firewall because it's largely an invisible security layer that adds meaningfully security to the desktop but stays out of the users way. Most security compromises are external attacks, not root vs. non-root issues.

Historically, multi-user systems made sense when hardware was expensive because not everyone could afford a computer and you could leverage the cost of expensive machines by creating multiple users and doing time sharing. But times have changed and computers are now ultra-affordable with PCs starting at $200.

So there's less need to share computers and have multi-user accounts with all that overhead and complexity. There aren't “administrators” in many of the homes, businesses and schools we are selling to. These are personal computers where the owner needs to be able to set the clock, change the wallpaper, configure a printer, install a flash drive, or load a new piece of software without bumping into nuances of computer science.

Take a Microsoft Windows XP or Mac OS X machine out of the box and use it and it operates in a similar manner to LindowsOS – the first person to touch it can do whatever they want. If we make Linux harder to use then other operating systems, users will not embrace it. Users just want to get their work done, they don't want to be computer experts and they shouldn't have to be. Of course, if they want to add a default password or setup multiple accounts and restrict access to their own machine, they can of course do it on all of these operating systems, including LindowsOS, even though none default that way.

2) User feedback on Linux-based desktop OS
by prostoalex

Since the Lindows PCs have been selling for a while, your marketing and customer service folks must have gotten some kind of feedback from current or prospective users.

What are the things people ask for? What are some things general users would like to see in Lindows or Linux-based desktop distributions that aren't there yet?

Robertson

When we started Lindows.com we believed that software installation was extremely difficult for most users and the biggest obstacle impeding widespread desktop adoption. So we invested considerable engineering in Click-N-Run http://www.lindows.com/clicknrun, which makes software installation (including downloading, menu items, icons, MIME types, etc.) in LindowsOS a one-click experience. It's far superior to anything Microsoft Windows XP has.

Since then, we've heard from consumers about what they want or think is missing in a desktop operating system. The number one item people thought was missing was virus protection. (This surprised me and wouldn't have been my guess; more on this topic in a later question.)

There are some key areas of hardware support which no desktop has today which users consistently bring up including: USB wireless support, Plug & Play USB drives (flash, hard drive and CD/RW), firewire and ACPI (power management for laptops). We hope to address most of these in our next release of LindowsOS version 4.0 coming shortly.

On the software side, it's amazing how quickly the community is filling application holes and a real testimony to the advances is making. Six to twelve months ago the list of “missing” software applications was different then it is today. For those seeking a Visual Basic-like program, Gambas (www.lindows.com/gambas), has made great strides. GAIM www.lindows.com/gaim has emerged as a solid meta-IM client, etc. The biggest individual holes today are probably an online banking aware personal finance program (ala Quicken) and a web development tool that is tightly integrated for creation and management such as FrontPage or Dreamweaver. (We'll announce an very cool, affordable product available in Click-N-Run next week which addresses the online banking need.) Video games is an entire product category missing for Linux. There are some great new companies like GarageGames (http://www.garagegames.com), but the high profile games are absent. Finally, video streaming is weak on desktop . None of the big three codecs (QuickTime, Real, Windows Media) have shown any real commitment to offering support. I think there's a real opportunity for one company to commit to gain the upper hand on the others with a true cross platform solution.

3) Should Linux Remain a Cult Object for Geeks?
by reallocate

Do you think the hostility toward Lindows that characterizes some members of the "community" can be attributed to their desire that Linux remain a "geeks only" cult object?

Robertson

Linux can literally save consumers billions of dollars on software, so I sure hope we can bring it to the masses – that's really our business.

I attended UCSD and as part of my major I was required to take an assembly language programming class. It was one of the computer science “weeder” classes where 60% of students fail or drop out. I struggled through it with a passing grade and had a great sense of accomplishment. The next year the major requirements were changed alleviating the assembly language requirement. I have to admit I wasn't happy with this decision since it meant that those sharing my degree after me didn't have to go through the same torturous experiment.

Until recently, it was a badge of honor to get a Linux desktop running. LindowsOS makes it possible to install in 3 minutes and have it auto-recognize all your components and then install most software with a single mouse click. Those who went through the “weeder” class path naturally won't be that excited.

4) Wine?
by IamTheRealMike

When you started, you put a lot of effort into Wine, sponsoring things like WineConf. That didn't work out, but Wine improves constantly, as the latest releases of CrossOver and WineX show. Do you think you'll ever return to it someday, or are you disillusioned with the whole thing?

Robertson

We really respect Jeremy White, Codeweavers and the rest of the Wine development team, but we did move away from Wine sometime ago. It was really a financial decision. Here's the analysis we went through. Microsoft makes roughly half of their profits from selling their operating system and half selling their office suite. If LindowsOS users still have to depend on Microsoft's office suite then they will only be able to save money on half of their software purchases. Additionally, they'll still have to deal with restrictive licensing, activation codes, endless security issues and expensive upgrade options. Undoubtedly Microsoft would continue to use their might to bully computer users who use one part of Microsoft's offerings into using the others, like they do now with Microsoft Word costing $349 and Microsoft Office priced at $399. We really need to move to a Microsoft-free computing solution to realize dramatic savings.

We thought it much better to continue to focus on the ease of use, but invest our energies in promoting and polishing native programs rather than legacy Micrsoft Windows based programs. This way we can save consumers considerable money on the OS and the other largest expenditure – the office suite. Another critical development is that the StarOffice/OpenOffice products really made major advances. We can now comfortably endorse and distribute these products.

While we stopped promoting Microsoft Windows program capability, we strongly emphasize file format compatibility which we think is critical. People often have a need to open and edit a doc, xls or ppt file and that's what we give them. By focusing on affordable programs, we can give computer users these capabilities for the lowest price.

5) MP3.com in retrospect
by prostoalex

Looking back at MP3.com, what would you do differently if you were to start the music service business all over?

Do you think MP3.com was a good business idea in the first place? Do you think the sale of the site to Vivendi Universal was a good idea?

Robertson

Our goal at MP3.com was to bring digital music to the masses and I think we made a lasting impact and left the world a better place then we found it. We fought hard in congress, courts and in the business world to make MP3 a universal standard because it was the best thing for music fans who were our ultimate customers. Today MP3 is a universal standard, DRM schemes have been thwarted, portable players are legal, virtually all hardware supports MP3, so consumers are in a relatively good place because they can freely move their music around.

We didn't accomplish everything we wanted to do. We championed the concept of a “Music Service Provider” and backed the concept up with phenomenal technology which would store a user's entire music collection online and zap it to any device via an open API (PC, portable, phone, car, CDR, etc) with a single mouse click. Licensing challenges, restrictive law interpretation, and music industry reluctance to embrace new technology torpedoed our efforts on this front. It's interesting to hear the press gush over Apple's itunes “one click” purchase and load to portable player features – something we had two years ago. I think we laid important groundwork to make this happen, but missed delivering on our entire vision.

I sold MP3.com at a time and price that I thought was good for our shareholders and have no regrets and wouldn't change any decision I made.

6)Wal-Mart
by Znonymous Coward

Microtel and Lindows have put togther some great deals for Wal-mart.com; How are sales going?

Will the Microtel + Lindows PCs ever make it to Wal-Mart store shelves?

Robertson

Sales are strong - we have the best selling products at Walmart.com. I'm confident that success will lead to retail store distribution on retailers' store shelves. We're waiting until our next version (4.0) to distribute LindowsOS in major outlets. The quality needs to be there to satisfy everyday (non-technical) computer users. I can't stress how critically important this is to the success of desktop Linux.

Linux MUST be preinstalled on computers to be a sustainable business. The Microsoft stranglehold on OEMs must be cracked to change the dynamics of the PC business. Until this happens, no desktop Linux company should be considered a viable longterm company.

7) PATENTING ONE-CLICK-INSTALL
by neitzsche

Dear Mr. Robertson,

Could you please update me on your efforts to patent your one-click-software-update solution?

If you are granted such a patent, do you plan on allowing the open source community free (beer/speech/both?) licensing?

Robertson

We don't have a patent on Click-N-Run and have not filed a patent application. I'm not a big believer in method patents. Patents need to be “non-obvious”. I'm not sure “one click anything” is patentable or should be – whether an order process (think Amazon) or software installation routine.

8) Viruses
by minus_273

Not having viruses is one of the upsides of . Why do you sell a virus scanner for Linux?

Shouldn't you be presenting the lack of viruses as one of the reasons to switch?

Robertson

I shared your viewpoint initially, but then we heard from users and discovered something new. What people thought was most lacking from LindowsOS that prevented everyday use was “virus protection”. I was surprised by this result so we talked to users to understand their logic. It turns out that they have been so traumatized by the virus problem on Microsoft Windows that it has shaped their view of the world. Many told us they would NEVER use a personal computer without virus protection because either they had been infected and publicly embarrassed or they knew someone close to them who had. Others said that their corporate policy mandated virus protection or the employee could be disciplined. It's no longer a rational decision, but simply a presupposition to using a computer.

Let me use an analogy. Say someone grew up in the crime-ridden inner city project and then decides to move to the country. No matter how hard that real estate agent tries to use statistics and reasoning to convince them they don't need locks on their doors of the house they're buying, the buyer won't believe it because that's not the world they grew up in. 95% of the world has grown up in a Microsoft virus-infested project. Microsoft has cleverly positioned it as a solely external problem so they don't have to incur the cost to fix it. Bravo to Microsoft for good marketing which has saved them billions in support. Consequently, computer users don't see the root of the problem as shoddy Microsoft programs that if they were to abandon the problem subsides, but rather a fact of life of personal computing. It's a lock on the door they insist on having – regardless of the crime statistics in their area.

So we offer a one-click virus solution powered by Central Command. Virii are a tiny problem today on Linux, but as more desktops migrate it would be foolish to think that it will never be a problem. Just stopping inadvertantly passing on Microsoft Windows vulnerabilities has value to many consumers, as I've attempted to illustrate to many people considering desktop Linux.

9) Click-n-Run vs apt-get
by mahdi13

Lindows is based off of the Debian code and uses apt-get to install software from the Click-n-Run repository. What is in place to keep people from changing the apt-get sources from CnR to the Debian sources and install something like Synaptic (and getting newer, updated packages for free) instead of paying the $99/year (with a few execptions)?

Robertson

It is true that LindowsOS is Debian based, but Click-N-Run is no longer apt-get based. We're now on the third generation of the Click-N-Run architecture and it shares virtually no code with apt-get. As often happens you learn a lot when you do version 1.0. In the first version we learned the limitations of apt-get and were forced to create our own system which would better support personalization, commerce, error handling, and low bandwidth environments. We saw about 60% success rate using the first version of apt-get. Today we achieve over a 90% success rate. And we're able to offer advanced features like Aisles, CNR Express, a full featured commerce engine, and critical features like auto-retry and partial install resume.

LindowsOS users are free to use apt-get or any other feature. We don't remove the command line or limit their ability to install software. They can “open the hood” if they want to. Our goal is to do all the heavy lifting for them for a fair price and build a profitable business. If we can't offer value beyone what they can get from apt-get then they shouldn't give us any money. So that keeps us working hard to offer value.

The Warehouse part of the Click-N-Run (http://lindows.com/warehouse) adds tremendous value as well. Not only do users get an informative graphical representation for many products, but because listings are based on popularity they can get a listing of the most valuable software as measured by the community. We also spend considerable amount of time working on the top 25 programs. We typically customize them to make them work well together and on LindowsOS. Since anyone can browse the information for free, we have even learned that our warehouse is used by many who don't use our products as a resource. We recompile the programs to use the “My Documents” folder by default to resolve one of the common complaints from users that “they can't find their saved files”. That's obviously a simple example, but those are the types of things that make all the pieces work well together for LindowsOS users and will bring desktop to a wider audience.

10) Xbox
by randomErr

What ever possessed you to put up the bounty on the Xbox project?

Robertson

To understand my motivation it's probably important to understand my belief in personal ownership. I believe that if you purchase a product, you should have the right to change it, move it, or alter it for your own personal needs. The seller should have the right to say that you void the warranty or refuse to support it if you change it, but you should still have right as the purchaser to make that choice. This goes for music, software and personal computers. My belief is that as long as consumers have this right, then they'll use that freedom to make choices which steer our society in a generally positive direction. I'd contend we've already witnessed this with MP3.

The Xbox is Microsoft's first attempt at a closed architecture PC. What they learn from the Xbox will be in their next generation closed desktop PC system. Microsoft wants to move to a world where THEY decide what software a computer runs because that will allow them to extract the most money from consumers. They'll position this product with a comforting sounding name like “trustworthy” computing and tout the benefits, but it's really about shifting power over an individual's PC from the buyer to Microsoft. Microsoft will put up a permission gate before any software can be installed which will have a fee associated with it. It will ultimately give Microsoft control over a user's computer. This is why we do not, in any way, limit what software users can install.

I think it's critical that consumers have control over their computers and the ability to decide what software they want to utilize. I look at the Xbox as simply a personal computer. This is why I funded the Xbox reward.

NOTE: I funded it through http://pubsoft.org, Russ Nelson's great concept which I hope catches on.

Consumer freedom is also one of the primary reasons I started Lindows.com. If we can get a substantial number of desktop users we will ensure the longevity of an open architecture PC and ensure that the computing world evolves in a consumer-friendly direction.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer your questions.

Comments

Running as root is insane.

[Malor]

You know, one of his answers really bugs me.... the old 'security versus convenience' argument. He essentially says that Lindows runs as root to be convenient.

He talks, later, about how his customers are so traumatized by viruses that they'd never consider running a machine without some kind of protection. Windows, which has always been 'features before security', has horrific virus problems.

In essence, he's indirectly bashing his own way of doing business. One of the main reasons viruses don't spread as easily on Linux is simply that normal users don't have permission to mess with system files. Even if a virus DID infect your Linux box, the damage would most likely be contained to the user account's home directory, unless you did something stupid (or weren't patched up properly). Lindows is, in essence, being stupid by default. He's trying to make Lindows 'just like Windows' -- so you get all the design problems and fewer user-level features to boot. What a deal.

If he wants to make Linux BETTER than Microsoft, this is likely an area of key differentiation, and yet he's glossing over the whole issue for 'user convenience'. Instead, he should be investing resources into engineering a solution that preserves both ease of use AND security. It can be done, it just costs time and money. Mandrake has a decent solution to this problem. It could be improved, but it's not too bad. It would make a fine starting place.

A corollary of an old computer aphorism: "Cheap, secure, convenient. Pick any two."

Ummm...No

[Wyatt Earp]

"Take a Microsoft Windows XP or Mac OS X machine out of the box and use it and it operates in a similar manner to LindowsOS ? the first person to touch it can do whatever they want."

Sorry, Mac OS X is not running as root out of the box.

While the first user is an Admin, they do no have root access, there are many directories they can't see, and they can't go in and trash stuff in another users account.

Re:Ummm...No

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Sorry, Mac OS X is not running as root out of the box.

While the first user is an Admin, they do no have root access, there are many directories they can't see, and they can't go in and trash stuff in another users account.

While you point out an interesting distinction (BSD/OSX's difference between admin and root) it is beside the point.
Robertson's contention is that commodity PCs aren't running as multi-user systems. The person who powers it on is the user, the admin, the only one using it. There are no "other users" to trash.
The tradeoff is convenience/security. Some claim that it's better to spend your day-to-day operations in an unpriv account, and intentionally change to a priv account when those privs are needed. Robertson's claim is that non-geeks don't want to make that distinction or take that extra step, and the reduction in protection is worth it for ease of use and the resulting acceptance.

He's in an interesting position by pushing an OS for folks without CS (or generally geeky) backgrounds. My linux boxes all have non-priv accounts, and I use sudo when I need it. To be quite honest though, I'm typing on a win2k box, and my user has full Administrator privs. It is also a single-user system. There are no other users who's data needs to be protected. Am I more vulnerable to OS damage from inadvertant actions? Sure. Do I care enough to give up the convenience, not really.

--

Re:Ummm...No

[Ian Bicking]

the first person to touch it can do whatever they want.

In contrast, however, this is true for MacOS X, and for any version of Linux (because the person that sets up the machine gets to set up the root account).

But, in contrast to Linux, MacOS X doesn't require root priviledges to change the clock or a number of other operations (many hardware related). Linux often requires higher permissions than it should, because it is coming from the perspective of a shared, multiuser environment, or it does not give the console user extra priviledges.

and if this were a Microsoft or MS-friendly CEO...

[ThePretender]

"Naturally, when answering your questions, he boosted his company. (Wouldn't you?)"

would read:

Naturally, when answering your questions, he boosted his company. (Which is typical for a money-grubbing, morally bankrupt merchant of the Devil!)

Geek Cult Linux

[CyborgWarrior]

I'm a high school student in CT, USA and have been for a long time trying to convince the technology department to move to a Linux server. Everyone in the technology department seems hesitant, but I've also talked to many of the teachers and they seem more open to it. Interestingly, it seems less of a geek thing around here, than a normal user thing. People are beginning to get seriously disgusted with Microsoft and are looking more for other options. This could be the perfect time for Lindows to enter the market for the average user.

Kidding yourself

[Sanity]

One of the main reasons viruses don't spread as easily on Linux is simply that normal users don't have permission to mess with system files.

I really think that Linux users are kidding themselves when they use this argument. The main reason that there are so few Linux viruses out there is that there are so few desktop Linux installations relative to Windows, making it less fun to write Linux viruses, and less likely for them to spread.

A Linux virus could do significant damage without root access, and there are a variety of ways that such a virus could trick the user into giving it root access. Trojan a RPM or DEB, or even just ask the user for their root password with some excuse like "Your hard disk has reached a fragmentation level of 30%, we recommend that you defragment it now. Please enter your root password").

Re:Kidding yourself

[Otter]

A Linux virus could do significant damage without root access...

In general, the idea that users don't have access to anything important is a holdover from when Unix meant large multi-user systems with regular backups. In Linux desktop use, the files in ~ are probably more important and less replaceable than system files. And, as you say, there's no need for root access for an email virus to spread.

Re:Kidding yourself

[Malor]

Yes, all of those things are true. And I imagine that eventually, Linux viruses may become a real problem.

But it is an extra layer of security; virus writers have to work harder to get around the inherent limitations. It's not a free lunch.

On a normal Linux/Unix machine, An HTML-code exploit is not, by itself, going to spawn a remote root shell to Joe Attacker's box; it's going to take either user foolishness ("Type in your root password for maintanance purposes") or a second local exploit to do it.

On a Lindows box, ALL you need is the HTML exploit, no additional stupidity required.

One of the key issues with both real-life and computer-based viruses is containment. You're seeing that now with SARS. If you can slow the rate of infection, you gain time to deploy a response.

Tens of thousands of run-as-root boxes directly attached to cablemodem make a very fertile environment for virus development. An extra layer of security, requiring additional stupidity on someone's part, will slow the spread and help contain the damage.

Any defense can be gotten around, given enough time and effort. That does not, however, imply that no defenses should be deployed. I stand behind my assertion that knowingly defeating one of the main lines of security in an operating system for 'convenience' is grossly stupid.

Re:Kidding yourself

[sbaker]

EH?

The reason viruses don't exist/spread is because Linux mailers don't treat data as code. Simply reading text files and HTML (sans Java/Javascript) cannot allow a virus to spread by the *simple* mechanisms that allow them to propagate in the Windoze world.

There is also the diversity argument. Under Windoze, there is essentially only one mailer in common use. If you hack a virus to work with that, it'll spread like wildfire because every mail it sends out to replicate itself has a 99% chance of hitting another machine that'll replicate it. In the Linux world, even if all those outgoing mails reach other Linux boxen, the chances are that most of the people it reaches will be running some other mailer and the virus will stop right there. That DRASTICALLY slows down the growth rate of the virus - so even if one were possible, it would spread at a snail's pace and be easy to contain.

I don't think it has anything to do with root access.

However, I regard the idea of running Lindows in root 100% of the time as sheer lunacy. There is such a thing as protecting a user from himself. "rm -R /" should NOT work! If it were both safe and convenient to run in root all the time, most Linux desktop users would do so - however we don't - an overwhelming number of people will voluntarily give up a small measure of convenience in order to gain a measure of protection-from-self-induced-screwups.

Re:Kidding yourself

[Lumpy]

And, as you say, there's no need for root access for an email virus to spread.

you are right... it needs Microsoft Outlook.

anyone who put's scripting in any email program needs to be brutally killed in the streets, and their body publically impaled as an example to others...

same goes for the ability to do anything with an attachment but SAVE AS.... come on programmers.. get a clue.

Re:Kidding yourself

[StormReaver]

"And, as you say, there's no need for root access for an email virus to spread."

So many people who use this argument are overlooking the obvious. An email virus requires an email program that will automatically execute attachments. There is no email program for Linux that does this. All Linux email programs require the user to:

1) Save the attachment to disk.
2) Change the file attribute(s) to executable (because Linux email programs never save files with the execute bit(s) set).
3) Expicitly run the program.

The reason Microsoft email viruses are so prevelant is because Microsoft's email program requires the user to:

1) Read the email.
2) There is no second step.

Running the system as root will in no way make a user susceptible to email viruses on Linux. However, running as root will greatly increase the damage done to the system if a user runs a malicious program.

Assume that I, under my user account "stormreaver", get tricked into performing the three steps needed to run a malicious binary emailed to me and it completely wipes out my home directory.

If I didn't have backups, which is foolish considering how cheap CD-R's are nowadays and how easy KDE 3.1 makes backups, it's true that I'm out of luck for my personal files. I have to remove my account (by becoming root), recreate my account, and start over. The rest of my system (games, utilities, etc) are all fine.

If I did have backups, which I have, then I delete my compromised account, recreate the user account, and copy my backed-up config files. It takes my (estimating) about ten minutes to get back to where I was (allowing time for reading hundreds of megabytes from the backup CDs). I'm then back in business. Since all my executables (minus my in-development binaries) were protected by root access, nothing was permenantly damaged. At most, I'm somewhat inconvenienced. I saved days of redownloading and installing large non-system apps and several hours of installing and tweaking my operating system (with the latter taking most of the time).

The superuser/regular-user distinction made in Linux is real protection against filesystem viruses because it eliminates the automatic propogation mechanism required by such viruses.

Only profound stupidity on the part of email software developers (and profound stupidity on the part of users running Outlook through WINE, though the threat is greatly reduced on Linux because most WINE installations don't have Microsoft address books) will present an email virus problem on Linux.

Running everything as root will still require active user participation to propogate any type of Linux virus. However, the damage done will be far more extensive.

None of this will matter, of course, if a regular user installs something by temporarily becoming root, and the install program then makes the software setuid root. However, the protections added by the superuser/regular-user distinction are significant.

KDE has almost nailed all circumstances where this is inconvenient and provides a simple way to temporarily become root to perform system-altering tasks. The only one remaining, that I encounter, is having to use the command prompt to su to root in order to install a game using Loki's installer.

Re:Kidding yourself

[bbqBrain]

That's an interesting point. One could most likely consider everything above $HOME on a typical Lindows box replaceable. Because the user isn't hacking startup scripts, recompiling the kernel, etc., a reinstallation from CD and update from CnR would restore the PC to its previous state. Losing $HOME, OTOH, would be disastrous.

In light of this, I wonder if Lindows has considered an online backup service. You could have an automated or manually-run agent make a bzipped tarball of $HOME and transfer it to a Lindows server. Hell, I'd go one step further and encrypt that with ``openssl rc4'' and a user-defined password. Tack on an interface for excluding specified directories and a N-megabyte limit, and I think you have a killer service.

Re:Kidding yourself

[dsplat]

you are right... it needs Microsoft Outlook.

And when someone finds a security hole in a commonly used version of Mozilla or Evolution, that could hit a significant percent of desktop Linux users. If we make the assumption that the number of such users is going to grow, I think it is safe to assume that they are not as likely to use something that doesn't look like a Windows e-mail client. They want to make the transition as simply as possible.

There will be Linux viruses. We will get hit. Currently, the smaller installed base and the diversity of distributions, client software, kernel versions, etc. is making Linux harder to target. If 90% of desktop users were using Linux, and 80-90% of those all used the same e-mail client, browser, and word processor, Linux would provide a rich target environment. More virus writers would target it.

Re:Kidding yourself

[Sj0]

The extra step of saving the file to disk isn't ultimately making anything safer.

It most certainly does. Just remember that for the longest time, everyone KNEW that viruses couldn't be spread by looking at e-mails. nowadays, just looking at it in the preview pane is enough to infect your system and send it to everyone on your list if you haven't patched and secured Outlook Express.

The behaviour you're describing is a result of idiocy. Outlook viruses make it so non-idiots can infect their systems my doing something mundane and not paticularly stupid at all (reading an e-mail isn't stupid. Opening foreign executables can be.)

Re:"the Click-N-Run architecture..."

[i_am_nitrogen]

Click-N-Run never shared any code with apt-get. It originally called the apt-get executable to download and install the software, but now the Click-N-Run client downloads the software itself, and uses dpkg to install it. This is just an accidental miswording by Michael Robertson.

A few things

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

..I think the larger issue here is how do you balance security vs. ease of use. We are committed to providing a secure desktop operating system and make policy decisions about how to achieve a secure but usable system. ..

Sounds like PR speak to me...I could easily see Dilbert's boos (Bossbert?) saying this.

In addition, I find it very interesting in regards to his talk about viruses and how users have become accustomed to the viruses that "ravage" the windows world.

It's amazing to me that people will even *consider* it part and parcel of dealing with Windows that they can't even fathom there are alternatives (i.e. virus free ways of dealing with things), sad really!

Interesting and Insightful

[evilpenguin]

Well, I think this interview shows the man has his head on straight. He understands the real issues that keep "joe six-pack" from buying and using Linux and he understands why there is is little ISV support for Linux. He has a strategy for solving it. I don't know if it will work. I don't know if it is any good.

But $200 PCs from Wal-Mart with Linux pre-installed is a big step on the way to adoption.

I do not know Lindows (yet). I don't know if I think it is evil or not. But I bought one of the cheap PCs to find out. I figure that if I hate it, I can put another distro on the box.

I, frankly, look forward to to seeing Lindows on PCs actually in Wal-Mart stores. You see, I'd rather have a substantial number of the people who don't care what their OS is running Linux (or at least having the choice) than being locked in to a Microsoft-only world. It will lead to better hardware and software support for the OS. Nothing this man does can take away our Free Software or our other distros. If some of the people today locked in to Microsoft become locked in to Lindows, does that really hurt anything or anyone?

I disagree with him about the "running as root" issue. I understand his logic, but a "root only" Linux box is a Linux box that might very well come to need its virus scanner! Non-priv'd users are a big part of why Linux viruses are NOT a big issue.

Anyways, I know I'm rambling. I'm not likely to ever buy a Lindows subscription. I'll end up putting Debian, RedHat, or SuSE on the box first (heck, maybe my first Gentoo box, who knows). But I think there is a supply of users for whom a product like Lindows is theoretically perfect. My mother-in-law, for example.

Those of us who care about Free Software as a freedom issue wont be hurt by Lindows. And we might be at least indirectly helped.

Interesting views. Good interview.

I'm impressed

[u38cg]

While I don't agree with everything he says, I have to say he's far better informed and making far better decisions than I thought he was.

For the first time, someone is pushing a Linux distribution at customers with regard only to what customers want, not what geeks feel like providing.

He has a serious handle on the things that will crack open the door to mass acceptance; pre-installation...simple installation - criticise the ethics of CnR all you like, at the end of the day it is designed to work seamlessly without specialist knowledge, and precious little else manages it.

He also seems to have a good handle on what freedom means in a practical sense; the ability to control your computer - witness the Xbox bounty, leaving in apt-get, and so on.

Lindows won't ever be my cup of tea, but I suspect that in a few versions down the road it will be the ideal Christmas present for Granny.

Why the Walmart Thing is Bogus

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not so sure that the lindows/microtel boxes are anything but cheap white boxes that people install their pirated copies of windows software on....no one likes talking about this, but I'd imagine that many of those lindows machines being sold are being taken home, run once or twice as a linux machine , and then wiped and installed as a windows machine.

Call me a pessimist, but the people who have the numbers (lindows and microtel) aren't likely to release them. How many people sign up for click & run vs the numbers of machines sold....

Someone is really trying to take Linux mainstream!

[1337_h4x0r]

Instead of saying "well why should we pay you for apt-get" and such, why can't we embrace this, work to extend their apps and do what we can to make this work? Isn't this what we wanted? A non-MS alternative that everyday people can use? I don't understand the hostility towards Lindows thats prevalent on /.

I'm a victim of the "Virus Protection" bit.

[pecosdave]

One of my past employers demanded that I install a virus scanning program on my Linux box that wasn't even connected to the network after a big Windows virus took out most the workstations at the company. I used it simply for reference when walking customers through fixing their own issues. Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.

I'm Impressed

[AlabamaMike]

Hats off to this CEO. First off, I'm very impressed by his stance on patents. To find a CEO today that shares his vision of "non-obvious" patents is a chore. I like to think of most CEOs as "IP Raiders." Next, his comparing Microsoft's code base to a ratty housing project is also on point. It's good to be reminded how a company with both the monitary resources and marketing might can actually "mold" reality into something that shelters their position. The virus problem in Windows isn't all MS's fault, but there's more than enough blame to go around. Finally, his point on the XBox is very important, and I am enthralled to see it stated so well. Closed PC architectures are an upcoming menance, and if history is to be our guide here it's clear that we have no protection from our government(s). MS got off scot-free from the anti-trust action (something not even the Bell System was able to do.) They'll probably get away with this as well, but at least we'll have a choice with gentlemen like Mr. Robertson out there. A giant thank you to him for his response, and props to the /. community for coming out with some excellent questions.

-A.M.

Subsidized hardware vs. consumer control

[Octagon Most]

I have a differing opinion on this concept of consumers having "control over their computers and the ability to decide what software they want to utilize." Surely this is not a popular opinion around here, but shouldn't we accept as legitimate the concept of subsidized hardware based on a subscription? This is most typified by wireless phones. Anyone can get a free mobile phone by signing up for a wireless service contract and agreeing to pay the fees for a specified period of time, typically one or two years. Part of those fees goes toward the initial cost of the device that the user got for free or a subsidized cost. Now even if we don't like it can't we accept that the X-Box is priced the same way? The X-Box buyer gets the unit cheaply (subsidized if you will) because of the condition that it is locked to specific software - authorized games that generate fees for Microsoft.

Instead of arguing that consumers should have some inherent right to do as they wish with any hardware they buy shouldn't we fight for the option to purchase such unrestricted hardware at an unsubsidized price? It's unrealistic to suggest that Microsoft or any other company provide cheap, even below-cost, hardware and not recoup their development costs. And it wouldn't look like such an attractive project to get Linux running on a $2000 unrestricted version, would it? I just think it is fair to accept that it is not just restricted hardware locking you into an evil vendor, but rather subsidized hardware purchased with an explicit service contract.

Re:Subsidized hardware vs. consumer control

[Anonymous Coward]

"Surely this is not a popular opinion around here, but shouldn't we accept as legitimate the concept of subsidized hardware based on a subscription?"

Of course not, since this reduce consumers choice.

"Anyone can get a free mobile phone by signing up for a wireless service contract and agreeing to pay the fees for a specified period of time, typically one or two years."

In many countries like Finland this kind of stuff is illegal. That's why cell phones are very popular here:
- you can choose a cell phone and service provider independently
- you can replace your cell phone with a new one when you like and keep your phone number
- you can switch to the better service provider any time

Re:"the Click-N-Run architecture..."

[Soko]

Do you have the binary of Click-n-run?

From the GPL FAQ:

The GPL does not require you to release your modified version. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization.

But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the users, under the GPL.

Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to release it is up to you.

I read that to mean that you are only required to relese the source to those people you've released the binaries to, and it says nothing of making the source available to the general public (unless the binaries are as well, of course).

In summation: Buy Lindows, install it and then you should be able to get the source to Click-n-run. After that, you can modify and re-distribute it to your hearts content.

Soko

Why they will succeed (or fail)

[nuggz]

Our goal is to do all the heavy lifting for them for a fair price and build a profitable business. If we can't offer value beyone what they can get from apt-get then they shouldn't give us any money.

Wow a one line business plan, and a corresponding one line risk. If more companies did this, maybe the dot-com crash wouldn't be a problem.

We should do something useful that people will pay for.
If we don't do it better then cheaper alternatives we won't make it.

Great, more power to him.

[stile]

Frankly, I don't give a crap if he's providing a non-MS alternative to "normal" people. I run linux because I'm a power user, and it does exactly what I want -- no more, no less (and it's free). When I was 16 and using linux, I was all about the "down with Microsoft" movement. But now, I realize just how much work is going to go into bringing Linux to the masses, because the fundamental philosophies of Linux are not compatible with today's end user.

I think that Lindows is doing a good thing here, and I say, more power to them. But I also think that it probably still has quite a long way to go. When it gets there, we'll end up with something that runs on a Linux kernel alright... but it won't be Linux like we know it. That's not bad at all, because the standard user won't be happy with Linux in the slightest. That's not bad either, because Linux was made for and by power users.

So I don't feel the need to spread the Linux gospel to non-geeks at all. I'll let someone else make his money doing that. Then again, I'm not hostile to it either... nor am I hostile toward Microsoft, except in that I'm forced to purchase their OS bundled with many standard kinds of computers. The point is: I've found what I'm happy with, and that's pretty much all that I care about.

Re:"Closed Architecture"...My Eye

[revery]

He lambastes MS for their "closed architecture" Xbox when Lindows' Click-n-Run is essentially the same thing. Sure, you can run other appps

It not even close to the same. You can't run other apps on the X-Box. Lindows lets you run apt-get if you want, but if you don't know how/don't want to take the time you can pay them to handle the process for you...

On the X-Box you have to crack it to run unlicensed code. On Lindows you always run as root, on the X-Box, you can't run as root at all...

They're capitalizing on Linux being hard to use!

And you probably didn't build your house all by yourself, and you probably pay a mechanic when you don't know how to fix your car, and you probably don't cut your own hair, or cook every meal at home. Every business capitalizes on the something being hard/inconvenient...

Sheesh, give the guy a break. What changes would you make to his company that would increase profits from selling Linux to the masses?

--

Was it the sheep climbing onto the altar, or the cattle lowing to be slain,
or the Son of God hanging dead and bloodied on a cross that told me this was a world condemned, but loved and bought with blood.

Re:I would pay $99 a year more reasons

[pecosdave]

I would pay $99 a year not to have to

1. locate obscure libraries everytime I want to install something

2. compile obscure libraries that require me to download more obscure libraries everytime I want to install something

3. Install more Gnome components every time I want to install an application that doesn't appear to be a Gnome app for use on my KDE system

4. Compile every program I want to use because binaries aren't available for my distro, but they are for Red Hat, oh did we mention you're going to have to download and install some obscure libraries for that?

Ahhh!!! I don't have broadband at home anymore since moving, and my notebook doesn't have the hardware I need to do what I want, so my software update cycle goes something like

1. decide what I need
2. "borrow" company bandwidth to download it to my notebook
3. Copy software from my notebook to my home machine
4. Find out I need obscure libraries
5. Go back to work, get obscure libraries, source only, binaries not available
6. Take libraries home, not able to compile because they require more obscure libraries
7. Go back to work, get more obscure libraries, different distro. Install anyways
8. Move files from other distro to proper place in my system
9. Fail to compile, need newer/older version of obscure library.

Grrrrr. I like Linux, but Windows has its temptations.

Is it just me?

[ArhcAngel]

Or are there some EXTREMELY angry/anti-Lindows posters today? I understand the underlying issue about why it is unwise (Insane) to make the default account root but I completely understand why he says he does it that way. If you really stop and think about it how many people (non technical) do you know who would ditch Lindows in a heartbeat if they couldn't do something they currently can do in Windows. They EXPECT things to work like windows. Just like they EXPECT to have anti-virus software. A few years ago, when the Melissa virus stormed the net, I worked in a Novel/Lotus Notes environment. We got phone calles ALL DAY LONG for several weeks from people saying they were infected with Melissa. I had to explain to them that since Melissa only affected MS Outlook they couldn't be infected but were simply receiving emails from people who were infected. Many of them still insisted I come look at their systems. That is why Lindows works the way it does. No geek in their right mind is going to be enticed by this distro because it was NEVER EVER EVER targeted at you. Stop whining that it perverts Linux/OSS and help them succeed where every other attempt has failed. Is it so wrong to expect payment for services rendered?

Sounds like one of the good guys...

[zulux]

Let's see:

He selles a decent computer for $200 bucks.
He sponsors the XBOX hack.
He thinks that consumers *OWN* their own purchases.
He's helping the public to get aquainted with Free Software.
He fights the bogus Winodws trademark.
He thinks one-click patents are stuipd/silly.

He'd be welcome in my house for a beer.

Re:*cough*liar*cough*

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Close, but no cigar. (although your post is +1 Funny, not -1 Overrated)

Popularity with the /. crowd doesn't get you sales, it only drives up your bandwidth expense. We're all a bunch of cheap-ass bastards that expect cheetos and Mtn Dew delivered on a silver platter for free.
Oh yeah, and OGG support too.

--

Roberts makes an ironic observation

[WebCowboy]

To a /. reader I'm sure this is far from a profound insight but it's refreshing to see CEO's who are clued in:

Microsoft wants to move to a world where THEY decide what software a computer runs because that will allow them to extract the most money from consumers. They'll position this product with a comforting sounding name like "trustworthy" computing and tout the benefits [...] It will ultimately give Microsoft control over a user's computer. This is why we do not, in any way, limit what software users can install.

The fact that Microsoft is leading the charge in this direction is somewhat ironic. Microsoft rose to prominence based ENTIRELY on an industry that came to being because of enthusiasts who believed in bringing availability and control of computer hardware and software to the masses. The personal computer was invented chiefly to wrest control of computer resources from institutions (and their black-suit and white-labl-coat cladded minions) and place it in the hands of the end user.

Nearly 30 years ago, computer users had to pay through the nose for timeshare services what was allowed was decided based on corporate policy and the whim of system administrators (and even the mainframe vendors!). Running your process or batch on the big IBM iron was a privlige you paid dearly for and you were grateful for it (kinda sounds like grandpa walking to school barefoot in the snow but it was kinda true). Computer enthusiasts were tired of it and brash upstarts provided hardware (MITS) and software (Microsoft) they could purchase and use as they saw fit.

Fast forward to today. What a sad situation when a once brash young upstart--one that totally owes its successful existence to PC users past and present--turns into the "enemy" and betrays its customers by angling to control what people can do with the machines they own.

Microsoft is becoming a throwback to the 70's and earlier--like the companies that sold mainframes or timeshare services that called all the shots. With the arrival of the PC revolution none of those companies were the same again (and most don't exist at all). Microsoft has always been good at looking out for competition and the next big thing, and when they miss the boat (as they did with the Internet) they'd hop a raft and paddle out to it to stage a mutiny. I wonder if they're losing their touch now. They're responding to a new threat with an old business model.

And--irony of ironies--it looks like IBM is clued in enough to be a willing player in the game (even if they still are heavily invested in mainframes and proprietary computing).

Interesting times...

any sign of intelligence on /. regarding root?

[dh003i]

This is not a distro targetted at advanced users. As a pretty advanced user, I'm not going to be using Lindows (I installed Gentoo a while ago...that'll put hair on your nuts). Let me check...yep, just making sure, there is no law mandating that any of us 133t's have to use it. Phew. Freedom of choice still exists. But this company is doing a good thing. Incidentally, it's refreshing to see a CEO out there who doesn't use newspeak and cares about something other than $$$$.

Try to understand -- he's not making an OS for advanced computer users. He's not taking away the option to create user accounts. You want an account -- you can ADD one. By the way, all you jerk-offs should NOTE that when you finish installing Gentoo -- a pretty technically orientated distro -- there IS NO USER. ONLY ROOT. That's following the protocol of the install-guide. Look at the Gentoo Install Guide. Nowhere along are you forced to create a user-account, and the install guide doesn't even cover creating a user account, though it does suggest doing so, and references you to their FAQ (I've recommended that they cover how to create a user account at the end of the install guide). So, if you're going to bash Lindows for not having a user/root separation by default, you can only do so consistently if you also bash Gentoo. If you choose to bash Lindows but not Gentoo for this, then you are a hypocrite and are just doing this because you want to bash Lindows because it's easy.

Now, maybe Lindows install process should at some point prompt the user, "Do you want to create a user account?" with no default (I say no default, because if there's a default hard-liner jerk-offs on either side are going to bitch). There would be a Yes and a No option, each explaining the merits of both approaches. Simply put, the word "Easier" should be placed next to "No", and "More Secure" next to "Yes". Because average user's are incapable of reading long paragraphs (see Joel on Software), just leave it at that simplified explanation. Alternatively, Lindows could go the Gentoo route and simply advise users to create a user account after the OS is installed, maybe bring up a step-by-step wizard for how to do it after initial install.

Now, I feel that Robertson has done some good things with Click-'n-Run. I naturally think it would be better if it's GPL'ed, but these guys are a business and have to have some model for making money. Click-'n-Run is their model. They will make money because people will pay for the Click-'n-Run service, and also through their contracts with Walmart (in addition to selling Lindows). If you can think of a way for them to GPL Click-'n-Run and still get $99 a year from people who use it, then please SUGGEST that. Since Robertson wants to have good community-relations, I'm sure he'd appreciate it. He has blatantly said that his business model relies largely on Click-'n-Run succeeding, and that means $99 from it per year for customers using it. The only thing I can think of would be adding a portion of code to Click-'n-Run that only allows it to be run if the user has paid the $99 for that year (by checking some database, whatever) and distributing it under a modified version of the GPL with an additional clause specifying "may not be redistributed/modified with that check disabled".

In regards to other areas, I think he's pretty-much on the 8-ball. Very good analysis of patents -- btw, what moron asked him the question about patenting Click-'n-Run? There was never anything to suggest Lindows wanted a patent on that. And what group of crackpot moderators moderated that one up? There could have been a more useful question posted.

Quite frankly, I think Robertson has a good plan to bring a GNU/Linux distribution to more home users. This means more exposure for GNU/Linux, which means more users will know how to use it, which means more software support and more hardware support, and probably more FS and OSS. Because of the commonalities shared by all GNU/Linux distributions, it will be beneficial for all distributions.

All that said, I think that Lindows would be better off using WindowMaker as their WM.

Re:ACLs are inane.

[Eccles]

What's an ACL?

Anterior cruciate ligament. One of those bits of the knee that athletes are always tearing.

Seriously, though, it's an Access Control List. The idea is, rather than apps being associated with a user and having all the permissions of said user, you have to give individual apps permissions/restrictions. You could thus give your browser read-only access to your files, for example, or you could prevent an app from accessing the network.

Re:Where did that question come from?

[neitzsche]

"evidence" - well no, no evidence per se. (Since when does one need evidence to post a question on /.?)

I do not have any secret recordings of Michael Robertson outlining plans for focusing his efforts on legal (instead of technical) matters.

But his colorful history does show that he seems to excel in the legal arena. OTOH, his technical decisions lead to very belabored discussions about whether users should run as root or not.

I am happy with his answer to my question.

I am glad that my question was moderated up, AND he deigned to answer it.

Perhaps if I had carefully prepared a question, I would have asked how or if he intends to legally "help" the linux community. He was given the source code to a simply excellent operating system, as well as tons of application code for free. With some amount of effort, he is now able to call it his own. Does he now intend to fight legal battles that "little guys" cannot? (The Microsoft (TM) battle is the one example that I know of.) Does he feel that he owes the linux community anything?

But I didn't. That's what I get for being in a rush to post rapidly after the call for questions appeared.

BTW Otter, are you a Lindows employee or just an advocate?

Lastly,
is he completely clueless or did a bunch of crack-addled moderators mod up a troll?
I've never done crack myself (can't speak for the moderators) and it's been a long time since I've had any mind-altering chemical stronger than the caffeine in my coffee. I certainly do not consider myself (nor my question) a troll. I'm sorry that you do.

He's marketing to consumers, NOT GEEKS!

[Newer Guy]

There's one flaw in most of the posts I see here. Most of you (with a few notable exceptions) talk this guy down because he does things like using root as default, sells a virus scanner, has a built in firewall, etc. One even asked: " Why the need for a firewall when you can take an old machine, put XXX on it, configure it as a firewall, etc.." The operative word here is YOU. Maybe YOU can do that, but the average consumer shopping at Walmart.com both CAN'T and WON'T do that! Like it or not, computers are mass market items. Microsoft saw this many years ago and made their OS a mass market item too. They even essentially got rid of the DOS command line. Lindows is trying to do the same. Geeks have to ask themselves this: Do I want Linux to become a mass market OS or do I want it to remain a geeky OS?. If your answer is the former, then you MUST EMBRACE Lindows and others like it!! If your answer is the latter, keep running with the command line! Personally, I think there's room for both!! As such, though I run Red Hat on one machine (and spent hours trying to make my on board sound work, only to give up in frustration and spend 50 bucks for a SoundBlaster card) , and Lindows on another (and it found and configured the sound in about 30 seconds), I consider them both to be Linux, and I respect both Red Hat and Lindows for the different, yet so similar things they are trying to do for Linux.