Michael Robertson of Lindows Responds

Naturally, when answering your questions, he boosted his company. (Wouldn't you?) But I assure you, he wrote these answers himself instead of having them laundered by a PR team. Whether or not you agree with Michael and the way he runs Lindows (and used to run MP3.com) you've got to give him credit for speaking more openly than most other modern American CEOs.

1) why oh why?
by Ender Ryan

Why was it decided that Lindows would always run as 'root' by default? That seems like a pretty bad decision to me, and many others as it's the number 1 complaint of many Linux users who would otherwise like to give Lindows a try, but perhaps we should hear why that decision was made.

Is this how Lindows is going to continue to work in the future? I think this is one "feature" of Win9x that would really be better to leave in the past.

Robertson

I think the larger issue here is how do you balance security vs. ease of use. We are committed to providing a secure desktop operating system and make policy decisions about how to achieve a secure but usable system. For example, not plugging a computer into the 'Net would make it really secure, but not very usable. We did decide to build in a pre-configured firewall because it's largely an invisible security layer that adds meaningfully security to the desktop but stays out of the users way. Most security compromises are external attacks, not root vs. non-root issues.

Historically, multi-user systems made sense when hardware was expensive because not everyone could afford a computer and you could leverage the cost of expensive machines by creating multiple users and doing time sharing. But times have changed and computers are now ultra-affordable with PCs starting at $200.

So there's less need to share computers and have multi-user accounts with all that overhead and complexity. There aren't “administrators” in many of the homes, businesses and schools we are selling to. These are personal computers where the owner needs to be able to set the clock, change the wallpaper, configure a printer, install a flash drive, or load a new piece of software without bumping into nuances of computer science.

Take a Microsoft Windows XP or Mac OS X machine out of the box and use it and it operates in a similar manner to LindowsOS – the first person to touch it can do whatever they want. If we make Linux harder to use then other operating systems, users will not embrace it. Users just want to get their work done, they don't want to be computer experts and they shouldn't have to be. Of course, if they want to add a default password or setup multiple accounts and restrict access to their own machine, they can of course do it on all of these operating systems, including LindowsOS, even though none default that way.

2) User feedback on Linux-based desktop OS
by prostoalex

Since the Lindows PCs have been selling for a while, your marketing and customer service folks must have gotten some kind of feedback from current or prospective users.

What are the things people ask for? What are some things general users would like to see in Lindows or Linux-based desktop distributions that aren't there yet?

Robertson

When we started Lindows.com we believed that software installation was extremely difficult for most users and the biggest obstacle impeding widespread desktop adoption. So we invested considerable engineering in Click-N-Run http://www.lindows.com/clicknrun, which makes software installation (including downloading, menu items, icons, MIME types, etc.) in LindowsOS a one-click experience. It's far superior to anything Microsoft Windows XP has.

Since then, we've heard from consumers about what they want or think is missing in a desktop operating system. The number one item people thought was missing was virus protection. (This surprised me and wouldn't have been my guess; more on this topic in a later question.)

There are some key areas of hardware support which no desktop has today which users consistently bring up including: USB wireless support, Plug & Play USB drives (flash, hard drive and CD/RW), firewire and ACPI (power management for laptops). We hope to address most of these in our next release of LindowsOS version 4.0 coming shortly.

On the software side, it's amazing how quickly the community is filling application holes and a real testimony to the advances is making. Six to twelve months ago the list of “missing” software applications was different then it is today. For those seeking a Visual Basic-like program, Gambas (www.lindows.com/gambas), has made great strides. GAIM www.lindows.com/gaim has emerged as a solid meta-IM client, etc. The biggest individual holes today are probably an online banking aware personal finance program (ala Quicken) and a web development tool that is tightly integrated for creation and management such as FrontPage or Dreamweaver. (We'll announce an very cool, affordable product available in Click-N-Run next week which addresses the online banking need.) Video games is an entire product category missing for Linux. There are some great new companies like GarageGames (http://www.garagegames.com), but the high profile games are absent. Finally, video streaming is weak on desktop . None of the big three codecs (QuickTime, Real, Windows Media) have shown any real commitment to offering support. I think there's a real opportunity for one company to commit to gain the upper hand on the others with a true cross platform solution.

3) Should Linux Remain a Cult Object for Geeks?
by reallocate

Do you think the hostility toward Lindows that characterizes some members of the "community" can be attributed to their desire that Linux remain a "geeks only" cult object?

Robertson

Linux can literally save consumers billions of dollars on software, so I sure hope we can bring it to the masses – that's really our business.

I attended UCSD and as part of my major I was required to take an assembly language programming class. It was one of the computer science “weeder” classes where 60% of students fail or drop out. I struggled through it with a passing grade and had a great sense of accomplishment. The next year the major requirements were changed alleviating the assembly language requirement. I have to admit I wasn't happy with this decision since it meant that those sharing my degree after me didn't have to go through the same torturous experiment.

Until recently, it was a badge of honor to get a Linux desktop running. LindowsOS makes it possible to install in 3 minutes and have it auto-recognize all your components and then install most software with a single mouse click. Those who went through the “weeder” class path naturally won't be that excited.

4) Wine?
by IamTheRealMike

When you started, you put a lot of effort into Wine, sponsoring things like WineConf. That didn't work out, but Wine improves constantly, as the latest releases of CrossOver and WineX show. Do you think you'll ever return to it someday, or are you disillusioned with the whole thing?

Robertson

We really respect Jeremy White, Codeweavers and the rest of the Wine development team, but we did move away from Wine sometime ago. It was really a financial decision. Here's the analysis we went through. Microsoft makes roughly half of their profits from selling their operating system and half selling their office suite. If LindowsOS users still have to depend on Microsoft's office suite then they will only be able to save money on half of their software purchases. Additionally, they'll still have to deal with restrictive licensing, activation codes, endless security issues and expensive upgrade options. Undoubtedly Microsoft would continue to use their might to bully computer users who use one part of Microsoft's offerings into using the others, like they do now with Microsoft Word costing $349 and Microsoft Office priced at $399. We really need to move to a Microsoft-free computing solution to realize dramatic savings.

We thought it much better to continue to focus on the ease of use, but invest our energies in promoting and polishing native programs rather than legacy Micrsoft Windows based programs. This way we can save consumers considerable money on the OS and the other largest expenditure – the office suite. Another critical development is that the StarOffice/OpenOffice products really made major advances. We can now comfortably endorse and distribute these products.

While we stopped promoting Microsoft Windows program capability, we strongly emphasize file format compatibility which we think is critical. People often have a need to open and edit a doc, xls or ppt file and that's what we give them. By focusing on affordable programs, we can give computer users these capabilities for the lowest price.

5) MP3.com in retrospect
by prostoalex

Looking back at MP3.com, what would you do differently if you were to start the music service business all over?

Do you think MP3.com was a good business idea in the first place? Do you think the sale of the site to Vivendi Universal was a good idea?

Robertson

Our goal at MP3.com was to bring digital music to the masses and I think we made a lasting impact and left the world a better place then we found it. We fought hard in congress, courts and in the business world to make MP3 a universal standard because it was the best thing for music fans who were our ultimate customers. Today MP3 is a universal standard, DRM schemes have been thwarted, portable players are legal, virtually all hardware supports MP3, so consumers are in a relatively good place because they can freely move their music around.

We didn't accomplish everything we wanted to do. We championed the concept of a “Music Service Provider” and backed the concept up with phenomenal technology which would store a user's entire music collection online and zap it to any device via an open API (PC, portable, phone, car, CDR, etc) with a single mouse click. Licensing challenges, restrictive law interpretation, and music industry reluctance to embrace new technology torpedoed our efforts on this front. It's interesting to hear the press gush over Apple's itunes “one click” purchase and load to portable player features – something we had two years ago. I think we laid important groundwork to make this happen, but missed delivering on our entire vision.

I sold MP3.com at a time and price that I thought was good for our shareholders and have no regrets and wouldn't change any decision I made.

6)Wal-Mart
by Znonymous Coward

Microtel and Lindows have put togther some great deals for Wal-mart.com; How are sales going?

Will the Microtel + Lindows PCs ever make it to Wal-Mart store shelves?

Robertson

Sales are strong - we have the best selling products at Walmart.com. I'm confident that success will lead to retail store distribution on retailers' store shelves. We're waiting until our next version (4.0) to distribute LindowsOS in major outlets. The quality needs to be there to satisfy everyday (non-technical) computer users. I can't stress how critically important this is to the success of desktop Linux.

Linux MUST be preinstalled on computers to be a sustainable business. The Microsoft stranglehold on OEMs must be cracked to change the dynamics of the PC business. Until this happens, no desktop Linux company should be considered a viable longterm company.

7) PATENTING ONE-CLICK-INSTALL
by neitzsche

Dear Mr. Robertson,

Could you please update me on your efforts to patent your one-click-software-update solution?

If you are granted such a patent, do you plan on allowing the open source community free (beer/speech/both?) licensing?

Robertson

We don't have a patent on Click-N-Run and have not filed a patent application. I'm not a big believer in method patents. Patents need to be “non-obvious”. I'm not sure “one click anything” is patentable or should be – whether an order process (think Amazon) or software installation routine.

8) Viruses
by minus_273

Not having viruses is one of the upsides of . Why do you sell a virus scanner for Linux?

Shouldn't you be presenting the lack of viruses as one of the reasons to switch?

Robertson

I shared your viewpoint initially, but then we heard from users and discovered something new. What people thought was most lacking from LindowsOS that prevented everyday use was “virus protection”. I was surprised by this result so we talked to users to understand their logic. It turns out that they have been so traumatized by the virus problem on Microsoft Windows that it has shaped their view of the world. Many told us they would NEVER use a personal computer without virus protection because either they had been infected and publicly embarrassed or they knew someone close to them who had. Others said that their corporate policy mandated virus protection or the employee could be disciplined. It's no longer a rational decision, but simply a presupposition to using a computer.

Let me use an analogy. Say someone grew up in the crime-ridden inner city project and then decides to move to the country. No matter how hard that real estate agent tries to use statistics and reasoning to convince them they don't need locks on their doors of the house they're buying, the buyer won't believe it because that's not the world they grew up in. 95% of the world has grown up in a Microsoft virus-infested project. Microsoft has cleverly positioned it as a solely external problem so they don't have to incur the cost to fix it. Bravo to Microsoft for good marketing which has saved them billions in support. Consequently, computer users don't see the root of the problem as shoddy Microsoft programs that if they were to abandon the problem subsides, but rather a fact of life of personal computing. It's a lock on the door they insist on having – regardless of the crime statistics in their area.

So we offer a one-click virus solution powered by Central Command. Virii are a tiny problem today on Linux, but as more desktops migrate it would be foolish to think that it will never be a problem. Just stopping inadvertantly passing on Microsoft Windows vulnerabilities has value to many consumers, as I've attempted to illustrate to many people considering desktop Linux.

9) Click-n-Run vs apt-get
by mahdi13

Lindows is based off of the Debian code and uses apt-get to install software from the Click-n-Run repository. What is in place to keep people from changing the apt-get sources from CnR to the Debian sources and install something like Synaptic (and getting newer, updated packages for free) instead of paying the $99/year (with a few execptions)?

Robertson

It is true that LindowsOS is Debian based, but Click-N-Run is no longer apt-get based. We're now on the third generation of the Click-N-Run architecture and it shares virtually no code with apt-get. As often happens you learn a lot when you do version 1.0. In the first version we learned the limitations of apt-get and were forced to create our own system which would better support personalization, commerce, error handling, and low bandwidth environments. We saw about 60% success rate using the first version of apt-get. Today we achieve over a 90% success rate. And we're able to offer advanced features like Aisles, CNR Express, a full featured commerce engine, and critical features like auto-retry and partial install resume.

LindowsOS users are free to use apt-get or any other feature. We don't remove the command line or limit their ability to install software. They can “open the hood” if they want to. Our goal is to do all the heavy lifting for them for a fair price and build a profitable business. If we can't offer value beyone what they can get from apt-get then they shouldn't give us any money. So that keeps us working hard to offer value.

The Warehouse part of the Click-N-Run (http://lindows.com/warehouse) adds tremendous value as well. Not only do users get an informative graphical representation for many products, but because listings are based on popularity they can get a listing of the most valuable software as measured by the community. We also spend considerable amount of time working on the top 25 programs. We typically customize them to make them work well together and on LindowsOS. Since anyone can browse the information for free, we have even learned that our warehouse is used by many who don't use our products as a resource. We recompile the programs to use the “My Documents” folder by default to resolve one of the common complaints from users that “they can't find their saved files”. That's obviously a simple example, but those are the types of things that make all the pieces work well together for LindowsOS users and will bring desktop to a wider audience.

10) Xbox
by randomErr

What ever possessed you to put up the bounty on the Xbox project?

Robertson

To understand my motivation it's probably important to understand my belief in personal ownership. I believe that if you purchase a product, you should have the right to change it, move it, or alter it for your own personal needs. The seller should have the right to say that you void the warranty or refuse to support it if you change it, but you should still have right as the purchaser to make that choice. This goes for music, software and personal computers. My belief is that as long as consumers have this right, then they'll use that freedom to make choices which steer our society in a generally positive direction. I'd contend we've already witnessed this with MP3.

The Xbox is Microsoft's first attempt at a closed architecture PC. What they learn from the Xbox will be in their next generation closed desktop PC system. Microsoft wants to move to a world where THEY decide what software a computer runs because that will allow them to extract the most money from consumers. They'll position this product with a comforting sounding name like “trustworthy” computing and tout the benefits, but it's really about shifting power over an individual's PC from the buyer to Microsoft. Microsoft will put up a permission gate before any software can be installed which will have a fee associated with it. It will ultimately give Microsoft control over a user's computer. This is why we do not, in any way, limit what software users can install.

I think it's critical that consumers have control over their computers and the ability to decide what software they want to utilize. I look at the Xbox as simply a personal computer. This is why I funded the Xbox reward.

NOTE: I funded it through http://pubsoft.org, Russ Nelson's great concept which I hope catches on.

Consumer freedom is also one of the primary reasons I started Lindows.com. If we can get a substantial number of desktop users we will ensure the longevity of an open architecture PC and ensure that the computing world evolves in a consumer-friendly direction.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer your questions.

Comments

Ummm...No

[Wyatt Earp]

"Take a Microsoft Windows XP or Mac OS X machine out of the box and use it and it operates in a similar manner to LindowsOS ? the first person to touch it can do whatever they want."

Sorry, Mac OS X is not running as root out of the box.

While the first user is an Admin, they do no have root access, there are many directories they can't see, and they can't go in and trash stuff in another users account.

Re:Ummm...No

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Sorry, Mac OS X is not running as root out of the box.

While the first user is an Admin, they do no have root access, there are many directories they can't see, and they can't go in and trash stuff in another users account.

While you point out an interesting distinction (BSD/OSX's difference between admin and root) it is beside the point.
Robertson's contention is that commodity PCs aren't running as multi-user systems. The person who powers it on is the user, the admin, the only one using it. There are no "other users" to trash.
The tradeoff is convenience/security. Some claim that it's better to spend your day-to-day operations in an unpriv account, and intentionally change to a priv account when those privs are needed. Robertson's claim is that non-geeks don't want to make that distinction or take that extra step, and the reduction in protection is worth it for ease of use and the resulting acceptance.

He's in an interesting position by pushing an OS for folks without CS (or generally geeky) backgrounds. My linux boxes all have non-priv accounts, and I use sudo when I need it. To be quite honest though, I'm typing on a win2k box, and my user has full Administrator privs. It is also a single-user system. There are no other users who's data needs to be protected. Am I more vulnerable to OS damage from inadvertant actions? Sure. Do I care enough to give up the convenience, not really.

--

Kidding yourself

[Sanity]

One of the main reasons viruses don't spread as easily on Linux is simply that normal users don't have permission to mess with system files.

I really think that Linux users are kidding themselves when they use this argument. The main reason that there are so few Linux viruses out there is that there are so few desktop Linux installations relative to Windows, making it less fun to write Linux viruses, and less likely for them to spread.

A Linux virus could do significant damage without root access, and there are a variety of ways that such a virus could trick the user into giving it root access. Trojan a RPM or DEB, or even just ask the user for their root password with some excuse like "Your hard disk has reached a fragmentation level of 30%, we recommend that you defragment it now. Please enter your root password").

Re:Kidding yourself

[Otter]

A Linux virus could do significant damage without root access...

In general, the idea that users don't have access to anything important is a holdover from when Unix meant large multi-user systems with regular backups. In Linux desktop use, the files in ~ are probably more important and less replaceable than system files. And, as you say, there's no need for root access for an email virus to spread.

Re:Kidding yourself

[Malor]

Yes, all of those things are true. And I imagine that eventually, Linux viruses may become a real problem.

But it is an extra layer of security; virus writers have to work harder to get around the inherent limitations. It's not a free lunch.

On a normal Linux/Unix machine, An HTML-code exploit is not, by itself, going to spawn a remote root shell to Joe Attacker's box; it's going to take either user foolishness ("Type in your root password for maintanance purposes") or a second local exploit to do it.

On a Lindows box, ALL you need is the HTML exploit, no additional stupidity required.

One of the key issues with both real-life and computer-based viruses is containment. You're seeing that now with SARS. If you can slow the rate of infection, you gain time to deploy a response.

Tens of thousands of run-as-root boxes directly attached to cablemodem make a very fertile environment for virus development. An extra layer of security, requiring additional stupidity on someone's part, will slow the spread and help contain the damage.

Any defense can be gotten around, given enough time and effort. That does not, however, imply that no defenses should be deployed. I stand behind my assertion that knowingly defeating one of the main lines of security in an operating system for 'convenience' is grossly stupid.

Re:"the Click-N-Run architecture..."

[i_am_nitrogen]

Click-N-Run never shared any code with apt-get. It originally called the apt-get executable to download and install the software, but now the Click-N-Run client downloads the software itself, and uses dpkg to install it. This is just an accidental miswording by Michael Robertson.

Interesting and Insightful

[evilpenguin]

Well, I think this interview shows the man has his head on straight. He understands the real issues that keep "joe six-pack" from buying and using Linux and he understands why there is is little ISV support for Linux. He has a strategy for solving it. I don't know if it will work. I don't know if it is any good.

But $200 PCs from Wal-Mart with Linux pre-installed is a big step on the way to adoption.

I do not know Lindows (yet). I don't know if I think it is evil or not. But I bought one of the cheap PCs to find out. I figure that if I hate it, I can put another distro on the box.

I, frankly, look forward to to seeing Lindows on PCs actually in Wal-Mart stores. You see, I'd rather have a substantial number of the people who don't care what their OS is running Linux (or at least having the choice) than being locked in to a Microsoft-only world. It will lead to better hardware and software support for the OS. Nothing this man does can take away our Free Software or our other distros. If some of the people today locked in to Microsoft become locked in to Lindows, does that really hurt anything or anyone?

I disagree with him about the "running as root" issue. I understand his logic, but a "root only" Linux box is a Linux box that might very well come to need its virus scanner! Non-priv'd users are a big part of why Linux viruses are NOT a big issue.

Anyways, I know I'm rambling. I'm not likely to ever buy a Lindows subscription. I'll end up putting Debian, RedHat, or SuSE on the box first (heck, maybe my first Gentoo box, who knows). But I think there is a supply of users for whom a product like Lindows is theoretically perfect. My mother-in-law, for example.

Those of us who care about Free Software as a freedom issue wont be hurt by Lindows. And we might be at least indirectly helped.

Interesting views. Good interview.

I'm impressed

[u38cg]

While I don't agree with everything he says, I have to say he's far better informed and making far better decisions than I thought he was.

For the first time, someone is pushing a Linux distribution at customers with regard only to what customers want, not what geeks feel like providing.

He has a serious handle on the things that will crack open the door to mass acceptance; pre-installation...simple installation - criticise the ethics of CnR all you like, at the end of the day it is designed to work seamlessly without specialist knowledge, and precious little else manages it.

He also seems to have a good handle on what freedom means in a practical sense; the ability to control your computer - witness the Xbox bounty, leaving in apt-get, and so on.

Lindows won't ever be my cup of tea, but I suspect that in a few versions down the road it will be the ideal Christmas present for Granny.

I'm Impressed

[AlabamaMike]

Hats off to this CEO. First off, I'm very impressed by his stance on patents. To find a CEO today that shares his vision of "non-obvious" patents is a chore. I like to think of most CEOs as "IP Raiders." Next, his comparing Microsoft's code base to a ratty housing project is also on point. It's good to be reminded how a company with both the monitary resources and marketing might can actually "mold" reality into something that shelters their position. The virus problem in Windows isn't all MS's fault, but there's more than enough blame to go around. Finally, his point on the XBox is very important, and I am enthralled to see it stated so well. Closed PC architectures are an upcoming menance, and if history is to be our guide here it's clear that we have no protection from our government(s). MS got off scot-free from the anti-trust action (something not even the Bell System was able to do.) They'll probably get away with this as well, but at least we'll have a choice with gentlemen like Mr. Robertson out there. A giant thank you to him for his response, and props to the /. community for coming out with some excellent questions.

-A.M.

Why they will succeed (or fail)

[nuggz]

Our goal is to do all the heavy lifting for them for a fair price and build a profitable business. If we can't offer value beyone what they can get from apt-get then they shouldn't give us any money.

Wow a one line business plan, and a corresponding one line risk. If more companies did this, maybe the dot-com crash wouldn't be a problem.

We should do something useful that people will pay for.
If we don't do it better then cheaper alternatives we won't make it.

Re:I would pay $99 a year more reasons

[pecosdave]

I would pay $99 a year not to have to

1. locate obscure libraries everytime I want to install something

2. compile obscure libraries that require me to download more obscure libraries everytime I want to install something

3. Install more Gnome components every time I want to install an application that doesn't appear to be a Gnome app for use on my KDE system

4. Compile every program I want to use because binaries aren't available for my distro, but they are for Red Hat, oh did we mention you're going to have to download and install some obscure libraries for that?

Ahhh!!! I don't have broadband at home anymore since moving, and my notebook doesn't have the hardware I need to do what I want, so my software update cycle goes something like

1. decide what I need
2. "borrow" company bandwidth to download it to my notebook
3. Copy software from my notebook to my home machine
4. Find out I need obscure libraries
5. Go back to work, get obscure libraries, source only, binaries not available
6. Take libraries home, not able to compile because they require more obscure libraries
7. Go back to work, get more obscure libraries, different distro. Install anyways
8. Move files from other distro to proper place in my system
9. Fail to compile, need newer/older version of obscure library.

Grrrrr. I like Linux, but Windows has its temptations.

Sounds like one of the good guys...

[zulux]

Let's see:

He selles a decent computer for $200 bucks.
He sponsors the XBOX hack.
He thinks that consumers *OWN* their own purchases.
He's helping the public to get aquainted with Free Software.
He fights the bogus Winodws trademark.
He thinks one-click patents are stuipd/silly.

He'd be welcome in my house for a beer.

Roberts makes an ironic observation

[WebCowboy]

To a /. reader I'm sure this is far from a profound insight but it's refreshing to see CEO's who are clued in:

Microsoft wants to move to a world where THEY decide what software a computer runs because that will allow them to extract the most money from consumers. They'll position this product with a comforting sounding name like "trustworthy" computing and tout the benefits [...] It will ultimately give Microsoft control over a user's computer. This is why we do not, in any way, limit what software users can install.

The fact that Microsoft is leading the charge in this direction is somewhat ironic. Microsoft rose to prominence based ENTIRELY on an industry that came to being because of enthusiasts who believed in bringing availability and control of computer hardware and software to the masses. The personal computer was invented chiefly to wrest control of computer resources from institutions (and their black-suit and white-labl-coat cladded minions) and place it in the hands of the end user.

Nearly 30 years ago, computer users had to pay through the nose for timeshare services what was allowed was decided based on corporate policy and the whim of system administrators (and even the mainframe vendors!). Running your process or batch on the big IBM iron was a privlige you paid dearly for and you were grateful for it (kinda sounds like grandpa walking to school barefoot in the snow but it was kinda true). Computer enthusiasts were tired of it and brash upstarts provided hardware (MITS) and software (Microsoft) they could purchase and use as they saw fit.

Fast forward to today. What a sad situation when a once brash young upstart--one that totally owes its successful existence to PC users past and present--turns into the "enemy" and betrays its customers by angling to control what people can do with the machines they own.

Microsoft is becoming a throwback to the 70's and earlier--like the companies that sold mainframes or timeshare services that called all the shots. With the arrival of the PC revolution none of those companies were the same again (and most don't exist at all). Microsoft has always been good at looking out for competition and the next big thing, and when they miss the boat (as they did with the Internet) they'd hop a raft and paddle out to it to stage a mutiny. I wonder if they're losing their touch now. They're responding to a new threat with an old business model.

And--irony of ironies--it looks like IBM is clued in enough to be a willing player in the game (even if they still are heavily invested in mainframes and proprietary computing).

Interesting times...