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Mozilla's Joy Of Naming
An anonymous reader writes "Thought the Firebird naming conflict was over? Think again! (If you thought, "What naming conflict?", go to the back of the class and read Slashdot's, previous coverage.) MozillaZine has got an exclusive interview with Christopher Blizzard, mozilla.org staff member, Red Hat employee and author of the Mozilla branding strategy. It's one the first official statements from mozilla.org (Mitchell Baker published a letter that she sent to the Firebird database project admins a few days ago). As well as the interview, MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project (who still haven't adequately explained how it was different when they picked the same name as the older Firebird BBS). Compare and contrast with MozillaZine's interview of Ann Harrison of the Firebird database project."
Such a conflict is bad for the image of the open source community. Sadly, it has reached the stage where no one can back down because of bruised egos...And hence it'll be settled (if ever) after a lot of shenanigans.
I'm sure it is greatly interesting to those involved, but to me this is rapidly approaching tabloid material...
Nothing's going to change. Nobody's going to back down. Further, it doesn't really matter.
They should name these browsers after progressive rock songs. That'd give them a lot of geek cred (in my mind anyway). Come on, what could be cooler than using a browser called "Echoes"?
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
Isn't this just going to cause confusion? Many people currently refer to the browser component of the 'Mozilla Application Suite' as the 'Mozilla browser' and changing the name of Firebird to 'Mozilla Browser' will just confuse things even worse than they already are.
w eek as a separate application.
People tend to think Mozilla='Mozilla Application Suite' and they tend to think of Phoenix/Firebird/Mozilla Browser/whatever-they're-calling-themselves-this-
I'm confused just talking about it.
as
My journal has hot
Since these name (Firebird, Thunderbird, etc.) are only codenames from what i understand, why not drop the codenames and use the names that the final product is going to go buy: Mozilla Browser project and Mozilla Email project. Its impossible to recomend anyone to use a great product if the name changes twice a month!
My 2 cents
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
Just call it 'Mozilla 2.0' and call it good.
There's no rule that says you have to add features with every release.
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
At my college, RIT, there have been changes to the names of things in the recent past. "Physical Plant," our janitorial service, became "FMS." A bunch of apartments called "Capstones" are now called "University Commons."
You know what? Everyone calls them "Physical Plant" and "Capstone."
Everyone I know still calls it "Phoenix." I still do.
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
You know, one hears all sorts of complaints about media bias -- too leftist, too rightist -- but I never thought I'd hear "overwealmingly [sic] biased in favor of Firebird".
At any rate, how hard is it to pick a new freaking name? Like there's a shortage of mystical animals? Start up a game of Angband and charge downwards until you hit a good-sounding creature. I'd suggest a high-elf warrior for maximimum speed of descent. Just watch out for hounds, and that annoying family of dwarves that resists everything and touches to disenchant!
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Actually its not just a name. For many companies its a brand which they invest heavily in to create and promote. For many its not something they are going to let go lightly
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
My general approach when looking for a name is to Google all possibilities until I find one that returns 0 hits. If it isn't in Google then it doesn't exist - so is safe to use. Until I wrote this message 'Phyerburd' would have been an example. It's also interesting in that then any time you searh for that word you can be pretty sure that most the hits in Google relate to your use of the word. An easy indicator to watch your growth by.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ann Harrison explicitly say she was trying to milk this opportunity for free publicity?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Some people have accused mozilla.org of having an arrogant and dismissive attitude towards the Firebird database community. What is your response to these allegations?
That it's an excellent example of argumentum ad hominem.
Err ... That isn't the same thing as denying that you've been arrogant and dismissive, Mr. Blizzard. Only that, if you have, it's not relevant to the argument. So ... is that it? You've been arrogant and dismissive but so what, that's not the point? Your answer seems to have confirmed that allegation, if not only by its logical content, then also by its curt nature.
Okay, Firebird is such a generic name. When are people going to just get with some common sense and realize that with a limited number of words in any language, some stuff is going to get reused. Especially things that are common, like Fire and Bird. When are people just going to get over it and realize that trademarks can be as bad as patents and copyright?
So let me get this straight: It is okay for the FirebirdSQL team to pick the same name as was chosen by the Firebird BBS developers, but it is 'unprofessional' and 'sploiled' of the Mozilla project to choose the name Firebird because the Firebird SQL project had choosen it first? Gotta love that logic...
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
I agree completely. Want to know what's responsible for the transformation? It's not the lawyers. It's not the corporations. And it sure as hell ain't "the people".
The reason why society has widely adopted back-stabbing as the road to success -- as opposed to personal responsibility and honest achievement -- is the nanny state.
In general, the bigger and more powerful government becomes, the more the average ignorant joe thinks he is entitled to, and the less he thinks he has to work for it. Government is so entangled in nearly every aspect of the average joe's life that he thinks government is the answer to any concievable problem that crops up. And this is no mistake. Government is a business, and like any business, one of the major goals is to lock your "clients" into your particular service. More government breeds more problems, and more problems breed more government.
It's a win-win situation for those in power (government), and for the successful backstabbers as well, and of course for the lawyers. But what about those who just want to live their lives in peace, achieving through honest means, accepting total responsibility for themselves -- and ONLY themselves? We're screwed. The only possible way to reverse the transformation is to reduce the size of government, an objective which directly conflicts with the objectives of those in power.
yeah, it's publicity. in fact, ann -did- say it was publicity: because they figured this had happened by accident, because, as you pointed out, they're not popular ... and no-one would be careful not to name their project 'firebird'.
... i'd like to see your qualification of that. i've come across talks by (of all people) microsoft, where interbase/firebird (same thing, except firebird is open-source, free, and not stinky) is listed right along with oracle, db2, sybase, etc. (and you won't find any mention of mysql or postgresql there.)
... fifteen years? a little more? it's quite full-featured, growing constantly, and currently undergoing a C to C++ conversion so adding features will be even faster in the near future.
... but on slashdot, everyone uses a browser. and if they code ... they're quite likely to have just picked up "php and mysql" at their local bookstore, and never looked for a -real- database. (isn't it sad that, even as good as postgresql is, and -known-, people still favor mysql? geeks, of all people, should know when they see a hack-job.) so instead, from now on, with the slashdot crowd, firebird will be known as "that evil database project that tried to keep mozilla from using its name!" ...
... work on firebird now. you can thank ann and jim for the work that brought you a fully-capable database without the bloat of oracle.)
however, as to the postgresql part
interbase has been around for, what
if it hadn't been for this stink over naming, firebird would have stood a good chance of publicizing their milestone releases (1.5 and 2.0) through slashdot. in fact, there might have been a lot more people picking it up and saying "hey, cool!"
maybe interbase stands a chance (not really -- all the original coders who made interbase possible
and yes, i -am- proud to use firebird in a production environment. it's fast, it's solid, and it does everything (almost -- i've got a few feature requests in) i want it to do. check it out! (and call it whatever you like!)
Lost respect for Mozilla's leadership?! I didn't see mozilla.org leading a spam campaign.
99% of users don't call it "Mozilla Firebird"
Exactly, just like they don't call it Mozilla SeaMonkey, so the db people shouldn't trip. In fact, if they hadn't started this mess (yes, they started it), the Firebird name would have barely seen the light of day.
It's not like Mozilla.org invested in a million-dollar ad campaign with the name Firebird.
And neither did FirebirdSQL, so that is not only a non-sequitor, but is in defense of Mozilla.org.
this kind of dispute is bad for the community, and it reflects very poorly on all involved with the Mozilla side of things.
Apparently FirebirdSQL is rubber and Mozilla.org is glue, since everything bounces off the db and sticks to the browser.
-bZj
.sig
use googlefight http://www.googlefight.com/ to settle these issues.
No kidding. sheesh.
:
It's not like one dilutes the other. They are not competing products. Even remotely. One does not affect the other.
Heck, Just plugging in Firebird on Google, the top 10 hits are
3- related to Firebird Database
1- Related to the Pontiac Firebird (!)
2- Firebird Raceway
1- book company
1- design company
1- gem company
1- arts & music.
Hey, the browser didn't even make top 10!
So, maybe they(Database boneheads) should go after the racetrack, pontiac, the book company, design company, gem company, and the a&m company too.
This is just so silly.
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
Condensed version of events:
I think this should be a lesson for those releasing projects in the future. It used to be that a search for "Phoenix" on Google would turn up the Phoenix webpage as its first match. "Firebird" matches all sorts of stuff, but (last I checked), none of them were the web browser. Over time, this will hopefully change, but the point is that name changes after a project gets popular are a bad thing.
Obviously there wasn't much choice when PhoenixBIOS's lawyers got involved, but I really wish people could see that not everything in the world needs a unique name. When someone introduces themselves as Matt, I don't get confused and refuse to talk to them because of a name conflict. (Since it's also my name.) Similarly, if asked to trim the bushes, I don't show up at the White House with hedge trimmers.
Similarly, if someone asks "What browser do you use?", and I reply "Phoenix," they're not going to get confused and think I'm talking about my BIOS. (Nor will they think I've captured a bird and am using it.)
Again, I realize that the developers in this case really had no choice, but I think it's pretty sad when lawyers decide the people don't know the difference between a bird, a web browser, and a database.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
The fact that these two different products are software is imho not an issue.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
I disagree. Many other countries have even "bigger" governments, yet America's litigious culture is nearly unique. I think the problem is not that people sue, but that plaintiffs are awarded ridiculous sums that are disproportionate to their losses. This is virtually an encouragement to gamble in the legal system.
In my ideal world, when you win you are awarded with what you lost (job, wages, property, etc). If the defendants needs further punishment, then they can be fined by the government, but the money doesn't go to the plaintiff.
For example, if the RIAA sues a student for pirating 20 albums and wins, the student should pay approximately the street price of those 20 albums to the RIAA. The student is additionally fined an appropriate amount (which would differ depending on how much money you actually have) by the government. If the RIAA sues a company that cranked out one thousand illegal copies of their CDs, then they are paid as if they sold that thousand. The company should then be fined a much greater amount than the student, in proportion to their violation, their ability to pay, and perhaps their history of offenses.
In other words, payment for the damages are compensatory, while the fine is punitive and intended to correct the illegal behavior. The fact that the criminal should be punished doesn't mean that the victim should be rewarded beyond reason.
Finally, judges need to do more judging. Frivolous cases must be dismissed promptly, and if they weren't, the loser may be liable for the legal expenses of the winner.
When you put that all together, you still can sue, but only when you're likely to win, and either way you're not going to hit the jackpot and get rich beyond imagination. I think that will bring most of the sanity you want.
Personally I think Firebird should've made efforts to legally define their trademark long ago (even though they've been trading as "Firebird" unimpinged for the past few years, which may also establish it, and also assuming that a court would see fit to grant it), then perhaps this whole incident would never have got as far as it did. But then I should've registered sex.com long ago too; hindsight is 20/20. Nevermind, I'll just forge a letter and send it to Network Solutions
Remember, after 1.4 Firebird will be the standard 'browser' for Mozilla. The all-encompassing front-end you know and hate will fade away and separate apps for each purpose (browser, mail, chat, layout, text editing, etc.) will be standard. They'll all compile from the same place and run off a core shared set of library files, but the binaries WILL be separate. I think only the bugzilla/development community will call it 'firebird' because we'll be too busy calling it 'Mozilla.'
Right now Phoenix users say Phoenix to DIFFERENTIATE from normal XPFE Mozilla users, but after we're standardized on Firebird that will fade away. We will evolve.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails