Sun Announces New x86 Servers

Sun and X86 by Bame+Flait · 2003-05-20 05:03 · Score: 3, Funny

I'm eagerly awaiting their move into adult markets with XXX86 servers. And Windows XXXP support!

Incidentally, Pr0stx0r fr1stx0r

Bitches

wow by banka · 2003-05-20 05:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

is this a ditch effort by sun to stay alive? it seems as though they've just been slipping away in recent years; they had the "One" platform of ubiquotous distributed computing and then that sort of disappeared, are we going to see the end of solaris soon?

"An anonymous reader" by Anonymous Coward · 2003-05-20 05:05 · Score: 5, Funny

From 68-248.sun.com

Sun is taking the same route as SGI by mikael · 2003-05-20 05:06 · Score: 5, Interesting

Remember when the x86 workstations began to eat into SGIs bottom line? They responded with building x86 workstations. The same thing is happening to Sun. Their SPARC servers are not keeping up with x86 servers, just as SGI IRIX/MIPS workstations began to lag in performance.

Now before the slashdot crowd begins to scream "But hey! The Sun Fire V480 is really fast!", remember that it is $19,995.00 in the base configuration. You'll get 10 IBM rack servers for the same price. In a clustered enterprise situation 20 3GHz Xeon will perform better than 2 900MHz UltraSPARC. Especially if we are talking Java.

Just as SGI was faster in the absolute high-end, so is Sun. The E15k is a monster. For some very specialized applications, this may be the only way to go. But for the very large majority of systems being purchased, a simple x86 server will do, especially if you can cluster it. This is where Sun is loosing the grip. Earlier you had to have a SPARC machine for advanced enterprise computing. These days are over, just as you had to have a SGI to run 3D software.

Now they are competing head to head with Dell in the x86 arena. This is a bold move. Wonder how long they will last.

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Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by sisukapalli1 · 2003-05-20 05:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

SGI ditched their core IRIX. They started moving towards NT on their machines. So, the analogy does not apply directly here.

Furthermore, regarding competing with Dell in the x86 arena, the redhat/sun/oracle partnership has some chance of becoming stronger than redhat/dell partnership.

Well, we will have to wait and see. I think sun is a good company -- and teaming up with oracle and redhat can't be a bad move at this point.

S
Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by phraktyl · 2003-05-20 05:21 · Score: 5, Informative

I've actually been looking at Sun's new entry level servers, the v210 and v240 servers.

The v210 starts at $2,995US, and the large configuration, with 2 1Ghz UltraSparc IIIi processors, 2GB of RAM, 2 36GB 10,000RPM SCSI-III drives, and 4 10/100/1000 network intarfaces comes in at $5,795US. I've seen comparible x86-based servers for more than that.

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Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by BWJones · 2003-05-20 05:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

Just as SGI was faster in the absolute high-end, so is Sun. The E15k is a monster. For some very specialized applications, this may be the only way to go. But for the very large majority of systems being purchased, a simple x86 server will do, especially if you can cluster it. This is where Sun is loosing the grip. Earlier you had to have a SPARC machine for advanced enterprise computing. These days are over, just as you had to have a SGI to run 3D software.

Actually, I am seeing a number of folks either 1) migrate to or 2) seriously consider Apple's Xserve for purposes sort of in-between. The Xserve runs UNIX, it is absurdly easy to manage, they are cheap, and give pretty good performance especially when code is optimized for Altivec. Add to that the power consumption (or rather lack thereof), and for large numbers of servers, the Xserve becomes even more attractive in terms of lower electricity and cooling costs.

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Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by maitas · 2003-05-20 05:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

> In a clustered enterprise situation 20 3GHz Xeon will perform better than 2 900MHz UltraSPARC. Especially if we are talking Java.

Well... show me one real application benchmark (like SAP or ORACLE apps., not TPC-C) where 10 one CPU machines has 9x times the performance of single of those same machines and I belive your speach. Currently, there's now paralell database that supports massive inserts using more than 2 nodes.
Clearly http://c-jdbc.objectweb.org/ looks promising, but there's still the problem of "order by" queries, since eahc node will answer its own order and the final appended result won't be valid.
Latency is the name of the game, with Ethernet in 10s of miliseconds and memory in the 10s of nanoseconds, there will always be a huge penalty for sincronization through network.
There's alway ways to add throughput (http://geocities.com/feromus/db-scalability.html) but latency will always have to increase...
Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by EinarH · 2003-05-20 05:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

Mod parent up, nail on head.
To me it looks like Sun x86 are competing with Sun SPARC with this move.
Who wants to buy a Sun Fire V240 at $6495 when they can this Sun Fire V65x at $4595?
Lets look at the specs:
V240 (SPARC),2U 2*1GHz UltraSPARC3, 1 MB Cache pr.CPU, 2 GB RAM max 8GB, 2 x 36 GB max 4, 4 x1Gb Ethernet, Solaris 8.
V65x (x86),2U 2*3GHz Xeon, 512 KB Cache pr.CPU, 1 GB RAM max 12GB, 1 x 36 GB, max 6, 2 x1Gb Ethernet, Solaris 9 or Linux.
Maybe the SPARC have better "troughput" for some applications, but it looks as if the V65x is better overall especially for CPU intensive tasks.
Since the volume of total SPARC CPU's will go further down as more Sun machines are sold with Intel CPU's they will become even more expensive.

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Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by u19925 · 2003-05-20 05:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

Not true. The SGI didn't have and still doesn't have IRIX on X86, so they couldn't migrate their customers successfully. If I am installing Linux or Windows on X86, why should SGI matter? On the other hand, if you need Solaris X86, it does matter. Thanks to SCO, Sun's importance is even higher. This is number one difference between DEC, SGI, HP migration to PC and Sun's.

SGI also didn't have SGI proprietary software installed free on their x86 boxes. OTOH, Sun includes StarOffice, JDK, App Server etc.

SGI was more expensive than Dell, HP etc... I just compared Sun offering and found that they are cheaper than even Dell.

SGI x86 hardware (initial) was proprietary. I remember stock Linux would not install on them. Sun hardware is same as rest of X86.
Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by iomud · 2003-05-20 05:55 · Score: 3, Informative

I agree, it will even be a more compelling product once the 970 comes out and we see improved io with very large memory configurations.
Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by CatOne · 2003-05-20 06:30 · Score: 3, Interesting

The IO on the box is already amazing, for large file transfers/etc. And if you want disk speed, hook up an Xserve RAID and run a 7 disk SCSI 5 array. Benchmarks are showing 210 MB/second *sustained* for reads and writes.
Re:Sun is taking the same route as SGI by joeykiller · 2003-05-20 07:07 · Score: 5, Informative

Because people in purchasing and management are stupid. There hasn't been a Sun worth the premium since the SS20.

Actually, I don't know if I agree with you about Sun not being worth the premium.

We run a very large web site that mainly consists of cheap Intel based hardware. But at the core of it all we've always used Sun servers with Solaris. Sure, the Sun servers have always cost us 10 times the price of comparable Intel hardware, but the Sun hardware comes with two things the Intel hardware does not:

1) The hardware (and the OS) is remarkably stable. One server ran for five years under heavy load the entire time without needing any maintenance. In the same time period we had to replace a lot of the Intel hardware.

2) In the unlikely event that something actually breaks, even if it's at 2AM in the morning, a guy comes rushing in and repairs the machine. The most amazing thing is that he always seems to have the right spare parts stored away, just in case. It's a fantastic service, and when you run a large scale, business critical operation, that kind of service is _extremely_ valuable.

And although this has nothing to do with hardware, there's (for me) an important point that concerns the OS too:

3) Even when upgrading the OS from 2.6 to 9, old software and strange old Apache modules (which we have to continue using, even though it's developer has stopped supporting them a long time ago) keeps working. I can't think of many Linux binaries from 1997 that would work for me out-of-the-box on a modern distribution today.

I'm not saying Intel hardware or Linux is bad, but I say that there are a few cases where the safety that overpriced Sun hardware can give you, gets more or less priceless.

Why not.. Follow SGI by acomj · 2003-05-20 05:06 · Score: 4, Funny

Wow.. I mean it worked so well for SGI, its a wonder everyone doesn't realease servers like this..

This could make life easy for redhat users by sisukapalli1 · 2003-05-20 05:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

Having the latest versions JDK and also J2EE SDK built in with the system may mean that the Apache Tomcat/ant and other things will also come bundled with redhat (and most likely pre-configured just like mod_perl and mod_php).

A brand new installation of redhat can then run things like servlets, jsps, etc., just like we can now run mod_perl and all that without end users having to build and install it.

S

Price Comparasion by Deathlizard · 2003-05-20 05:23 · Score: 5, Informative

IBM's 1U Server
Sun's 1U Server

At least they are price competitive with IBM. I'm not too sure about Dell but it's a start.

--
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!

Re:SGI didn't see the signs by Anonymous Coward · 2003-05-20 05:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

Actually it was the incompetent management of Mr. Beluzzo who wanted to force feed NT down SGI's throats. SGI had long moved from the "graphics gravy train" and were making inroads in the Super and server markets. Mr. Belluzzo or whatever the spelling of his name is tried to move towards NT when SGI still had a technological lead, plust it made disasterours alliances with Microsoft (they gave tons of IP to Redmond for mere peanuts).

Incidentally Belluzo left SGI after almost running it to the ground, and jooined Microsoft right away, some people think that he was on M$ payroll even while he was destroying, er I mean managing SGI. Coincidende?

Every major company that has got in bed with M$ and based their business on NT offerings is either dead or dying: Intergraph, DEC, etc. etc..

RedHat + Sun Java = w00t by Znonymous+Coward · 2003-05-20 05:27 · Score: 4, Funny

RedHat will also start shipping Sun's Java with their distribution

w00t. One less thing I have to do after install.

--

Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.

But how could this be??? by SashaM · 2003-05-20 05:28 · Score: 4, Funny

Wasn't it a well established fact that Except for SCO, none of the primary UNIX vendors ever developed a UNIX "flavor" to operate on an Intel-based processor chip set.

Sun cheaper than Dell? by u19925 · 2003-05-20 05:30 · Score: 3, Informative

for the first time, apple to apple comparison shows sun cheaper than dell. i selected sun v65 and tried identical system at dell. dell doesn't give 3.06 GHz in 2U rack, so i selected 2.8 GHz. This is 600 cheaper. However, Dell charges $600 for upgrade from 2.6 to 2.8, so their upgrade from 2.8 to 3.06 would have been higher than 600 (upgrade from 2.4 to 2.6 is 200, 2.6 to 2.8 is 600). dell comes with customer installed RedHat Advanced Server while Sun comes with Solaris 9 and both are atleast comparable system (to be frank, RH profession is cheaper. but i am aware of several server apps which require RH AS patches and won't be certified on RH Pro).

Stop the presses, misleading info... by Znonymous+Coward · 2003-05-20 05:35 · Score: 4, Informative

I just read the fine print... Suns JVM will only ship on Red Hat's Enterprise Linux Product.

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Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.

Might help get x86 into Sun-only shops by djh101010 · 2003-05-20 05:37 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'm in a corporate environment where trying to get Linux or *BSD into the data center is an uphill battle. If the box comes from Sun, and runs Oracle, that makes that argument a whole lot easier for me. Even if it's more expensive than commodity hardware, they do have a deserved reputation for solid hardware, and I can use the logic that if Sun is willing to put their name on it, they're willing to back it up. I'm building a support system that's going to need it's own database; this box is worth looking into, for me.

Re:Might help get x86 into Sun-only shops by crotherm · 2003-05-20 06:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

I work for a rather large aerospace corp whose name name starts with a B, and we still do not have a real linux road map. With SUN putting its name on low cost servers, hopefully this will make it that much eaiser for me to get linux in here and stop the windows server advance in the machine room.

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The One Vendor Solution by Greyfox · 2003-05-20 05:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

Folks like to stay on one vendor whenever possible, since it simplifies accountability issues. If you're buying big iron from Sun anyway, it may be worth picking up the mid-range and desktop from them as well. Chances are, that'd lower support costs, make it easy to find the phone number to call when something breaks and normalize quality of support. If Sun's support desk is better than Brand X (And I can tell you first hand that Brand X support sucks,) that alone might make it worth dropping a couple extra grand per machine for the brand name.

Of course, they will be trying to beat both Dell and IBM at their own game. SGI was at the last Linux Expo I went to (A few years back now) and during their presentation I was struck by the fact that they were trying to beat IBM at their own game, and I knew IBM was going to end up being the better player. Sun has more market share, extreme java expertise and a full range of machines to choose from, so I think they have a much better chance than SGI did.

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Re:sun becomes a commodity vendor by teeker · 2003-05-20 05:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

Because not only is Sun competing with similar hardware, they are selling it for a good price. After owning examples from both manufacturers, I would bet on Sun's hardware quality (x86 or otherwise) over Dell's any day of the week. For the same price, I'll pick Sun every time.

HP/Compaq? They're in the same league as Sun (HW quality-wise), but just spot-checking one of their ProLiant servers against the v65 configured similarly, the Sun machine is a little cheaper (no OS selected on the Compaq). Close enough to consider both. Again, after working for a company that has owned both, I still lean towards Sun as far as general hardware goodness. Hopefully this new kit lives up to that reputation.

That's what makes Sun able to compete in this market. Good hardware at a competitive price. Obviously the rest of the "commodity vendors" find it worthwhile to be in business.

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teeker

Re:wow by andy1307 · 2003-05-20 05:43 · Score: 3, Funny

they had the "One" platform

Sun-One as in Sun and their stock price a year from now...

Unfortunately... by moogla · 2003-05-20 05:49 · Score: 4, Informative

While it is a very cool system... (incl. the 4 network interfaces), 1 GHz UltraSparc IIIis are slow, and they don't have the extra benefit of tons of cache compared to the regular US3. The RAM is only SDRAM (still), and 72GB of space is paltry.

So, if you absolutely need a SPARCv9 architecture rackmount, this is the way to go. But featurewise it falls short of say an Altus 140 from Penguin Computing, or even a 1000E if you want 64-bit. And Peng. Comp. is expensive as far as that kind of thing goes.

That being said, the small Enterprises are quite cool, but they aren't as cost effective. It helps if your organization has a pre-existing agreement, and can get you a break.

--
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE

Re:Ahh, the final nail in the coffin called Sun. by stratjakt · 2003-05-20 05:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

Sun, like others, looks to be making the switch towards a more software and service oriented company, and less on the hardware. I've had no first hand experience, but from what I've heard, their support is second to none.

So these things are competitively priced, and if they come with useful support by people who actually know what they're selling and building (unlike Dell who no doubt has those moronic interns answering the phone), then they could definately make a go of it.

But the writing on the wall is that all of these specialized architectures are doomed to obsoletion. Commodity hardware is ever faster, fast enough to handle what were previously 'big iron' chores.

--
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!

Re:They don't care that Sun Java is non-free? by Wesley+Felter · 2003-05-20 06:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

Red Hat only cares about open source for their regular distribution; for Enterprise Linux they're willing to make an exception. I wonder if they're going to continue to include IBM's JVM in RHEL, though.

Routeness by fm6 · 2003-05-20 06:20 · Score: 4, Informative

You're picking up on one little parallel (both sell x86 boxes) and inflating it into a grand paradigm. The differences are more to the point:

Sun sneers at x86 workstations. SGI would like to sell x86 workstations, but waited too long to enter the market.
Sun used to talk about doing Itanium boxes, but lost interest. SGI's put a lot of effort into its Altix servers.
Sun has an x86 rackmount business, SGI does not. Though I often wonder how serious Sun is about this business. I've noticed that people who were customers when it was a separate company called Cobalt are not happy with the new management. And you'll notice that Sun has two or three Sparc rackmount models for every one x86 model.
Sun still has a huge Sparc development operation, and still uses Sparc exclusively in most of its products. SGI has spun off MIPS, and supposedly plans to give "commodity" systems equal priority -- though MIPS-based systems still dominate their product line.

Re:Ahh, the final nail in the coffin called Sun. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-05-20 06:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm so bored with this same theme over and over again. Why don't you all stay in your own thread and keep your comments to yourselves.

Sun selling x86 has nothing to do with competing with Dell and everything to do with selling big kit. It's about competing with HP and IBM who can offer more flexible solutions, i.e. small web/app servers talking to huge database servers. Big kit is Sun's core business now. This is what it has to protect.

Likewise, as another writer writes, it's a way to keep Sun only shops from straying away. More and more companies are installing Linux in the low end - fact. Sun doesn't want another vendor in there selling Linux boxes, which might mean losing other sales later in the mid/high end.

Two Words by jtharpla · 2003-05-20 06:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

Hardware RAID. Dell sells Intel boxes with it, HP sells Intel boxes with it. Why should I consider Sun without this? I know Dell's Hardware RAID isn't the best performance, but it's great for availability--actually I prefer's HP's (er, Compaq's) RAID controllers the best. What does Sun bring to the table to compete?

Re:wow by adam872 · 2003-05-20 06:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think this is actually a smart move on Sun's part. For several years, Dell, IBM, Compaq have been taking away market share at the low end from Sun. Now they at least have a product that can compete in the commodity space, where price is the overriding factor. It also means they have products all the way from the low end to the mainframe class like the E15k. Even if they only sell a small number of boxes, it will be better than they have been getting before.

As an IT manager, this is great, because I can buy Sun everything if I want to, which makes purchasing and maintenance easier. I can also push for a better volume discount if I want. Better still, at the low end, there's no vendor lock in, as I can run Open Source software under Linux. I also get the choice of Solaris x86 or Redhat. My experiences with the build quality of Sun equipment would give me some confidence too.

I think this is good for the customer and Sun. About time, I say...

Competing Solaris against Linux by HighOrbit · 2003-05-20 06:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

are we going to see the end of solaris soon?

Absolutely not the end of Solaris. Sun is shifting some of their focus (if not most) from producing hardware to being a software and services company. Although this was announced along with the Red Hat deal, this is actually an attempt by Sun to compete Solaris against Linux at the low end. Sun is basically admitting and re-acting to what people have been saying for months (if not years) - Linux has been eating at Solaris by replacing high-cost sparcs with low cost x86.

The Red Hat deal is an obfuscation. The real aim here is to co-opt Linux by having current Solaris shops stay with Solaris. Lots of these shops that would have replaced the Sparc/Solaris platform with Linux are now going to be induced to stay with Solaris on x86. Sun figures that it is better to sell Solaris services without Sparc than to sell nothing at all.

Up until now, Solaris on x86 was always a "redheaded stepchild" at Sun. The hardware support was terrible and limited (very few video cards, for example). Hopefully, Sun will now give x86 good hardware support.

Re:Competing Solaris against Linux by akuma(x86) · 2003-05-20 09:32 · Score: 4, Informative

I agree that this is a good way for Sun to make money in the computer business. Solaris is better than Linux at certain things and that will differentiate Sun enough for customers to go with them.

Beware the Linux distributions that come out of Sun. It is in their interests to make it look bad compared with Solaris. They tried the same thing with x86 Solaris. They made it so crappy to try to convince customers to switch their hardware from x86 to Sparc.

Hardware (servers in particular) are becoming more and more commodity-like as standard components work their way up the enterprise stack. Sun can't play there, they're too inefficient compared with a company like Dell that has much lower overhead - Dell has minimal inventory and just about 0 R&D cost. In a commodity market the leanest players win and Sun is a big fat pig.

Go with software and services. It works for IBM.

Re:Why Oracle? by NineNine · 2003-05-20 07:10 · Score: 4, Funny

And people don't need Oracle databases. Most of the free SQL flavors work just fine, thank you.

Give me PostgreSQL or MySQL any day over Oracle crap

Let me guess... you're 18 and haven't had your "introduction to Relation Databases" class yet, right? Kid, go away, you're bothering me.

This is only for RedHat Enterprise Linux by miniver · 2003-05-20 07:58 · Score: 4, Interesting

If you look at Sun's press release about Red Hat you'll see that Red Hat will be including the JVM with their RH Enterprise Linux distributions ... not with Red Hat Linux, and that Sun will only be supporting RH Enterprise Linux. Why? Because Sun still won't license the JVM for redistribution. I'm not saying that Sun is wrong here (it's their toy, they get to choose the license), but this is what has been slowing the acceptance of Java on Linux with many developers. (Except for corporate Java developers -- they love it, and thus, so do I.)

Sun's trying to balance control of Java against market acceptance, and Solaris against Linux. Sun obviously thinks that anyone who wants Java for Linux will go to the effort of downloading it from Sun, while at the same time they get to differentiate Solaris from Linux by including Java. On the other hand, Sun could hardly sell & support Linux on Sun servers without also including Java; this agreement gives them what they want without letting go of their (perceived) control of Java.

--
We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.

Uh-Oh...Sun is going down the SGI path.... by zerofoo · 2003-05-20 09:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

A few years ago SGI decided that the Wintel market was where they had to be. Soon, they were peddling commodity Intel boxes running NT....and it was almost the death of the company.

I see Sun going down that road. Sun needs to learn from SGI's mistake. Their bread and butter was the high-end stuff. The stuff that makes scientists drool. These guys will pay anything for massive number-crunching ability. SGI realized this and decided to drop the low-profit commodity business.

Commodity Intel-Red Hat-Oracle boxes are NOT a way to build a profitable business.

-ted

It's not about the low end. by fleabag · 2003-05-20 10:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sun does not really compete at the low end. A 280R at 17,000 GBP (discount yadda yadda) is not really competitive with a Xeon whatever, but that's not the point. It is binary/OS/Firmware compatible with the F15K/6.8K that I will deploy on, and that's why I will specifiy if for a dev box every time.

Granted an x86 box will blow a 480/3800/280/240 into the weeds (probably) - but an x86 does not deliver the power of 72 CPUs on a 15K - or even 24 on a 6800. This is not about the back end - deploying a stateless web farm on x86 is cheap and good - but the back end DB/App server needs power (>24 CPU) and resilience (zero transaction loss fail over), and x86 does not offer the power at this stage.

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