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Pentagon Soft-Pedals Total Information Awareness
PizzaFace writes "Congress was concerned that the Pentagon's 'Total Information Awareness' program would invade citizens' privacy, so it gave the program the red light until the Pentagon addressed Congress's privacy concerns. DARPA, the Pentagon technology agency that brought us the Internet in more innocent times, showed its Total Marketing Awareness by renaming the TIA program, 'Terrorism Information Awareness.' The gist of its report seems to be that data may be collected from everyone, but it will only be used against evildoers. You can read DARPA's report and a background story from the Washington Post."
What they are trying to do is make us believe that this is a feature, and not a bug? Are members of our government actually human? Or is this a ploy to steal all of our freedoms right out from under us. Next thing I know I'll be sitting alone in my room afraid to say anything because they might be listening. My TV will always be on because there will be no way to ever turn it off, and my name will be changed to something lame like Winston.
Remember that it's the State who will define who an "evildoer" is, and what constitutes "evildoing".
Doesn't matter what it's called, Orwellian surveillance systems will always be a gross breach of a citizen's right to privacy, and will always be open to abuse by those in power.
but it will only be used against evildoers
You don't say. Whom did they intend to use it against if congress hadn't stopped them? Anyone who changes sides because of an argument like that deserves to be deported to a police state where, of course, all laws are for the good of the people, too.
While they're at it, maybe they should change the logo as well to something less sinister, and appoint someone who is not a convicted criminal to run it.
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
but it will only be used against evildoers
Should the government be trusted ? I don't think so, given this and this I don't think their history is so clean.
oh yeah, that whole arresting thing is going out the window too. It's become unfashionable to arrest people, now you just throw them in a cell forever in connection with another case, one which you are not required to mention.
The phrase, "May you live in interesting times" never sounded so scary...
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?
Heh heh, of course they don't think we're that stupid. Why, it'd be stupid to think the good ol' US Public is that stupid!
Now, let's see, what percentage of Americans believe in Creation Science...?
Ooooooooooooohh.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if, behind the scenes, DARPA says something like "well, members of Congress will, of course, be exempt!", at which point Congress will immediately approve it.
I really wish, in this race to the bottom, some country would get there first in time to allow other countries to finally figure out that shit like this is really a very bad thing. But it looks to me like all of the countries are more or less operating in lockstep with each other, so they'll all hit bottom at about the same time.
Still think I'm full of shit when I say that the world is going to turn itself into a police state and that the end result will be a stable form of government capable of lasting thousands of years?
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
This is 1984 coming 20 years later than planned. What a horrible, horrible government.
Personally, the following bugs me a little bit:
*snip*
oversight board composed of senior representatives from DoD and the Intelligence Community, and chaired by the Under Secretary of Defense (Acquisition, Technology and Logistics).
*/snip*
How about some civilians or "average joe" types to be appointed to that oversight board? The composition of this "oversight" board seems to be all intel and DoD guys... a bit too much agency inbreeding there. How about a joe citizen to give some civilian "little guy" perspective?
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
You know, shortly after the main conflict in Iraq recently resided, there were lots of news reports stating just how much information Saddam Hussein's regime kept on the populace. One of the soldiers was quoted as saying, "Jesus, they've got files on everybody! The whole freakin' country is in here!"
Do we really want to be like Saddam Hussein's Iraq, or Nazi Germany, or Stalinist Russia for that matter? Subtracting privacy almost never adds security. Even if you watched everyone, all day, everyday, there'd be shit that slips through the cracks. Just look at how often Palestinians suicide bomb Israelis...and Israel brags it has the most stringent security in the world.
The best repsonse to this is to demand the database be 100% realtime public-access (r, not rw) over the internet.
It's asymmetric information avialability that is the problem - a system where all the data is only available to a control-freak elite is terrible, but if everyone has access to the information, the playing field is kept level.
No, it's not nice the database exists. No, it's not going to go away. Better that it be open to all then in the hands of a secret few.
Freedom should always trump Privacy.
dont get me wrong, im far from the ancient european critising the USA.
But there are times when living in the UK is sooo much more attractive than living in the US, at least we have a strong Data protection Act that gives us access to any information gathered by us.
And shamefully (being a privacy crusader myself) have even been put off travelling to the USA now as my information is already passed to airport security (my name, visa card number, what meal i had on the plane (true) etcetc) before the place has even had time to taxi down the runway.
I know that this will be flamed or trolled out becuase of the patriots within the slashdot crowd or i will have many responses based on the, but we are America and better, but bear in mind this is not supposed to reflect on the nation as a whole (paranoid although it is) or the poeple just a simple statement based on the privacy of the people.
A
Kingdom of Loathing (www.kingdomofloathing.com) Addicted is me
Welcome to the nightmare...
the more insidious Government's intentions. Whenever someting has "Security", "Peace" or "Freedom" in it you can reliably predict they are about the opposite, from an ordinary citizen's point of view.
This thing is inredible in scope! It will be limited only by the amount of data available. Of course, that's infinite. What exists to stop this program from gaining access to all records of all conduct by all people? I can easily imagine a time when all communication is monitored and probably recorded. All transactions of any type will be logged and entered into the database. All public movements will be captured by electronic eyes, analyzed and stored forever. The location of each car, phone, and every piece of currency will be tracked by satellites. Birds will have cameras implanted and flies will carry tiny microphones. There seems to be no way to stop these things from being developed. Bankers and businessmen will build bunkers below ground, eventually forming a race of subterranean rulers with absolute control of the surface dwellers. I'm sorry, it's too difficult to read about the TIA and not drift into psychotic sci-fi paranoia. /endfile
Senate Scraps Low-Yield Nuke Weapons Ban
please make it stop
It is your global duty to make sure Bush and his cronies do NOT get re-elected, an arms race + 1984 doesnt sound like a world i want to live in.
i will be glad when i die, but my children im not so sure.
Well, so is Kevin Mitnick but most Slashdot readers hold him in close proximity to God.
One has to assume that any politician is always seeking as much power as possible. It is not even a criticism - political systems specifically select those individuals who want power and are good at accumulating and trading it.
It's always cute to see how people are surprised when their "democratically elected leaders" turn out to have just the same tendencies as self-elected tyrants and dictators.
I believe the current tendency towards a centralization of power in the US is a self-defeating gambit, pushed by Ashcroft, but against the deeply ingrained beliefs of the political wing that put him into power, which has always distrusted big government. The attempts to turn "terrorism" into citizen control is a bit sad, really, since the minority views of the right-wing consituents in the US depend for their very existence on a open-minded and liberal democracy. Today, a register of information on everyone. Tomorrow, a national policy on morals. The next day: revolt from the conservative right-wing and fragmentation of the Republican party.
The point of democracy is not to elect the best leaders - this is a laugh - but to allow every policy, no matter how "vital to the State's interests" to be debated. Eventually such instruments will become the subject of discussion (allow 5 years for the Sept.11 trauma to wear off), and someone, somewhere, will be elected on the basis of protection of privacy. At which point we will see a swing back to smaller government and dissolution of the more blatant links between business and power.
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
Even in the time we live in now, you will still hide behind other people's problems instead of facing your own hard truth. It's the american way isen't it? If someone does it worse, it makes you feel a whole lot better about yourself dosen't it?
That's why americans don't want to help themselves, that mentality has seaped in so deep it won't come out.
Someday you will realize that there will always be someone worse off than you, no matter what, wasting your time pointing out other people's problems won't get you anywhere. And continuing down that path will eventually lead you to being worse off than everyone else. Seems like my theory is in the process of being proven with the path of the US. Always saying "It's not that bad, look at them they are far worse" and bam, another liberty gone.
Great Minds talk about Ideas.
Average Minds talk about Things.
Small Minds talk about Other People.
Seems that everyday the scale keeps weighing down towards the latter.
Posting useless rant since 2003.
One of the problems is that the government can do this because there is no Constitutional right to privacy.
It is long past time for an amendment to grant one.
Yes, I'm well aware the US is and historically has often been far better than many other nations in its treatment of people. That still doesn't make it exactly exemplary. Perhaps you think when it comes to mistreating its citizens, anything the US does is Ok as long as it doesn't exceed that done by some other nation, but some of us envision a somewhat higher standard.
BTW, the hair-splitting over the definition of "native Americans" is a crock. Like it or not, there were non-European peoples here thousands of years before Europeans arrived, and attempts to downplay that fact by saying they weren't "native" (only in the sense that human beings as a biological species didn't evolve here; their cultures and languages did) smack of an intent to reduce or dismiss the legitimacy of their claims. And what else should one call them? If mere accuracy is your goal, you should note "Indians" is profoundly less accurate than "native Americans."
Why not? Really? Are you serious?
Let's look at it like this. "Terror" is not a crime. "Terrorism" is not even a well defined act. When a person commits a "terrorist act," it could be a shooting, or a bombing, or a hijacking, etc. It's only someone's assessment of the motivation to commit the crime that labels that crime as "terrorism." So how is the database going to be limited to terrorists, or even potential terrorists, when all you need to have is a gun or some explosive material? That's a pretty wide group of people in the U.S.
And don't forget that drugs support terrorism. And don't forget that people with large amounts of cash are considered drug dealers. So if you carry large amounts of cash, you are supporting terrorism. So you're in the database simply because you cashed your paycheck and you don't like banks.
Terrorism can be redefined at any time. If you have private software on your machine which could have illegal uses, perhaps you're a terrorist. If you give to the wrong charity, maybe you're supporting terrorism. If you travel to a country "on the list," you're tagged as statistically more likely to commit a terrorist act. If your telephone records show calls to Colombia, you might be a terrorist. If you purchase a copy of the Koran, you are a potential terrorist. If you vote for the "wrong" party or person, you're a terrorist suspect.
THAT'S WHY NOT.
I don't think the post was anti-American. Americans who care deeply about the country and their freedoms have a strong interest in making such comments and observations. Perhas you think we US citizens should just lie down and take whatever the government or the prevailing social climate dishes out, but speaking as an American who is grateful for the freedoms guaranteed me and who cherishes the country's stated ideals, I'm very interested in seeing those freedoms and ideals preserved, and quick to criticize whenever I see those freedoms and ideals assailed or ignored, as has happened from time to time, whether you care to admit it or not. I strongly suspect the original poster ("Innocent times like the good ol' 50s," etc.) feels the same way.
Exactly. Americans are too comfortable. As long as "the trains run on time" we'll probably sit here fat and happy while our freedoms go the way of the dodo. We'd have to be much more oppressed, or have deeper religious convictions about right and wrong, before anything will happen. Unfortunately.
Constitutionally Correct
The reason they are pissed off is because we are free..
..because we stand in the way of their goal of extermination/subjugation of Jews in the Middle East.
Uh, no they're really not. They're pissed off because they see the U.S as secular and immoral when measured against their version of morality. Plenty of groups in the U.S do this with each other, too. Would you argue that an Anti-Abortionist is pissed off at a Pro-Abortionist because the Por-Abotionist is Free?
I guess you mean Isreal. This is a country that was formed by taking land from Arab states to build a Jewish state. A state that started a war on its first day (Really. I guess being given a whole country wasn't good enough, they had to have more.) A state that practices segregation and subjection of its non-Jewish population. A state that has its own non-disclosed nuclear weapons program.
Yeah, Isreal is the poor victim in all of this!
Isreal needs to stand on its own two feet and play nice with its neighbours. Most Arab states that directly border Isreal wouldn't care too much about these days, if it would just stop throwing its U.S-backed weight around like a spoilt child.
DARPA dreams up futuristic technologies it thinks might be useful and gives money to North American universities to look into those idea. Any Orwellian references here are so far off the mark its laughable. This technology is nowhere close to existing, but reseach into the fundemental technical problems it poses is actually quite interesting and will undoubted find commerical application before the military can use it.
Anyone who thinks DARPA is in the business of deploying military technologies has it all wrong. DARPA is in the business of rseaching interesting problems that may have military applications.
An example should help to clarify my thoughts. A system capable of "connecting the dots" the way DARPA descibes would be applicable to an immense range of problems. Consider an operating system that could fiqure out why it is crashing and fix the problem. Or how about program that could analyze your purchasing and find you ways to save significant amounts of hard earned cash?
The implications of DARPA research go way beyond the Pentagon. Prejudging this type of reseach is simply foolish.
Then why make "Terrorism" another crime? They already have you on bombing, shooting, etc...
"such as the NSA, CIA, and FBI, have become global police that operate mostly in secret, without control or oversight by the people."
This is misleading. These executive departments have the same sort of oversight, or lack of it, as the FDA and Ag Department. They are controlled by elected representatives.
As for the list of countries, many of these are true. The US bombing of invader forces in Bosnia to liberate this place is well documented. The rest of them involved for the most part attacking the invaders of those countries. I see your list did not mention "during WW 2", where I suppose it was terrible that the US bombed those nice Nazis.
However, what is disturbing is that you pepper your list with links to fringe web sites and extremists magazines, and the made-up "US War Crimes Against Iraq", seemingly composed by Bagdad Bob. Do you have any credible sources?
As soon as you rock the boat to any effect, your life becomes interesting. As long as you remain "sheeple" and go along with what they say, you are not interesting. In the military, we called that being in name tag defilade, such a low profile that all that was visible of you is your name tag (below notice). But, when you start to disagree with those that know better, or argue that the Bill of Rights should not be arbritrarily suspended for the emergency du jour, they want to know who you are and start collecting against you. They need to know how to handle you and hence, need to collect information against you. After all, if you had nothing to hide, you wouldn't be raising such a stink. You must be one of them or you'd understand that REAL AMERICANS understand the need to make sacrifices.
Tip O'Neal said that all politics are local. So, all it would take to become a threat is to piss off the local town council by opposing any of their pet projects. They call the sheriff or local constabulary who look into you and/or let law enforcement highers know that you exhibit anti-American tendencies and you pop up on the screen for further investigation. In the UK they've already discovered that the people manning the local cameras spend their time following attractive women or "the wrong sort" as they walk the streets. In the U.S., many employees of the IRS were fired after it was finally made public that they were looking at the tax files of celebrities because they were curious about them. None of the cameras in the London financial district have caught any of the terrorists they were placed there to catch. None of the celebrities had any tax problems that would have necessitated the look at their records. In each case, the people with power to snoop abused their power for personal reasons. Let alone Watergate. In an administration where the President's press secretary feels that it's un-American to disagree with the President, what will it take to become interesting enough to be collected against?
Having said all that, we do need to do something to protect ourselves. The issue is to protect ourselves without compromising who we are in the process. Traditionally, insurgents have always had the advantage in this respect. They don't have to balance anything nor respect any rights. By getting the government to repress it's own people, the government will cause support for the insurgents to grow as resentment of it grows. It is an incredibly difficult position for a government to be in and easy for the government to get the responses wrong. I'm sure that the U.S. can protect itself and respect the rights of its citizenry. But we have to stand up for our rights while we do so.
If we have no privacy, we have no freedom.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi
The USA made it's greatest mistake in allegedly 'electing' (allegedly because it was stolen in Florida with the help of -gasp!- his brother! and allegedly rigged prior to that elsewhere) a halfwit who makes Dan Quayle look like an intellectual.
Then it let him use 9/11 as an excuse for any sort of travesty he wanted to carry out on the world - Camp X-Ray and it's illegal detention of war prisoners (call 'em what you want, that's what they ARE) including children, and then the whole Iraqi thing.
If it was for freedom and the safety of the Western World, why hasn't he piled into North Korea with their PROVEN nuclear capability? (Note: no Weapons of Mass Destruction yet found in Iraq? Well hidden? Or never there?) Could it be because Korea has no OIL?
George W. Bush is a moron and the sooner he gets out of the White House the better. At the moment he's alienating the US to the rest of the world and screwing your economy to boot. £300 billion deficit?
Good grief. If he wins again you're doomed. Hello Depression, tonight we're gonna party like it's 1929!!
S.
"Like it or not, there were non-European peoples here thousands of years before Europeans arrived, and attempts to downplay that fact by saying they weren't "native" (only in the sense that human beings as a biological species didn't evolve here; their cultures and languages did) smack of an intent to reduce or dismiss the legitimacy of their claims."
Of course it is an attempt to delegitimize their claims, the term Native is politcal, since most areas of this planet have been populated and repopulated several times over by various different types of peoples mixing their cultures and biology. Are the Eqyptians of today really the Egyptians of history? Are the Russians really the Natives of Russia? Heck the British Isles are a mish mash of a few thousand years of invasion and rape by various Kingdoms and empires. Don't even try to begin to think of Israel in terms of Native and non-Native. So, what of it? Are we willing to return to a philosophy when historical injustice is used to justify injustice today? When one people can claim that they have been wronged in the past, so that they are somehow immune to the moral responsiblity of their actions today.
Yes, people fear the term Native anything and rightly so. It has been used to take people's land. In America, it hasn't been used to take back Manhattan or the National Mall, but rather it is used to take land of rural peoples, those that are unable to defend themselves. Especially in America, where so many of our ancestors came here to flee those that would use history to steal the future through wars and oppression, can anyone not see that history must be studied dispassionately and learned from. Not be used to justify the whim and avarices of today.
So, I won't tell another person how they should regard themselves or how they should associate, if you wish to call yourself Native American, so be it. It does not give a person a right to theft, just as I would not seek to justify the sins of the past.
Just no one call me a "European."
What bothers me, in addition to the purported use this huge database will be put to (even if only done with the best of intentions, and we know what road is paved with those) is the security of the damned data once collected. When IRS folks "just take a look at" celebreties' tax returns, when policemen regularly skim through data unrelated to any active case ("Wonder if my ex-wife's new boyfriend is in here?"), when hackers can get 10,000 SSNs or credit card numbers, so why not a quick download of info on random citizens, then I worry. I worry a lot.
We all know that no widely-shared data is safeguarded very well, and the wider the user base, the less security (how many does it take to keep a secret? -- one, of course). So the mere collection of this stuff will lead to leakage of the stuff.
And if it's no more accurate than the records they keep now, well, need I say more?
Can you spell "recipe for disaster?" I knew you could. Next week, we'll learn how to say, "I hold in my hand the names of 26 known Communists in the State Department."
Ed Drone (been there, done that, and the T-shirt doesn't fit any more)
"You are a member of the Democratic Party because you are either mean-spirited, or ignorant about the issues."
Your insulting message demonstrates what the Republicans are about, and shows exactly why we should all be nervous about the Republicans having this kind of tool to spy on us. Even if you are a Republican, you might not be a "good enough" Republican for them - like the ones they currently say are "moderates" and are trying to rive out of the party.
Anyone who remembers Nixon KNOWS that this tool is for political use. This is what Republicans have always done - from McCarthy to Nixon to Reagan's Iran/Contra. In fact one of the guys convicted of political crimes for Iran/Contra is IN CHARGE of this spying operation!
"Well, of course, we could use it against anyone we like, but we promise to only use it against bad people....[mumbles something about definition of 'bad' people.]"
No, I, for one, would not have preferred to live in one of the places and times that you mentioned. You are correct: what those people did was wrong.
That does not excuse or whitewash the wrong that Americans do now or in the past. The McCarthy witch-hunts, persecutions, and outright mass murder kahei mentioned are against every principle set forth by the Declaration of Independence and by the US Constitution. Such wrongs are truly un-American. They should be remembered so they are never, ever, repeated.
This nation was founded on a beautiful ideal of liberty and justice. This ideal is symbolized by our flag, and is the bright beacon Lady Liberty holds aloft. This ideal also needs to be remembered, so we can better live up to it.
BTW, if any of you are flying the US Flag, go check on it for me. If it is like a lot that I have seen, it is probably tattered and faded. I have seen more poor abused flags since 911 than I have in 40 years of news footage of flag-burning protests. Learn to take proper care of your flags, and grow the sense to bring them in out of the weather and night dew.
"[America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice."
President John Quincy Adams, 1821
True security is not found in the military. Look at Israel, do they live in a secure state? How do you feel about security in the US and abroad these days now that we've asserted ourselves via our military.
The best way to be secure is to be on good terms will ALL your neighbors, respect their ideas and their rights to express them, treat people fairly as if you would like the same treatment, and remember that the use of deadly force is a last chance means of survival.
M
Well god damn. Seems like we have a lot of experts here. Experts on things like civil liberties, civil policy, privacy rights, terrorism, policing a society, etc. I think all of you complainers should just quit your jobs and seek public office. Like assholes you all seem to have opinions about what SHOULDN'T be done but few solutions concerning what should be done. How typical. I suppose we should just go back to the way things were before September 11th. Weak airport security. No databases containing information about our credit, spending habits, etc. (if you believe these are new, you're an idiot.) I'd like to see some of your suggestions for protecting the 291,028,179 citizens of the United States. No, really , enlighten me.
After reading many of the posts on this page, I wrote something similar to the above, but then thought "Aww forget it, just wasting my breath." (Some of you will no doubt agree.) So I deleted what I had written. But after reading some more of the comments posted here, I just couldn't help myself. I had to get this off my chest.
How many of you voted in the last election? How many of you plan on going into politics to try to make a difference? How many of you just sit behind your computers on your asses all day long and don't do shit but complain on Slashdot? Certainly, I'm sitting on mine right now, but you don't see me complaining about shit I have NO idea whatsoever about.
So, once again, I challenge you. Instead of saying shit like, "The government is fucked." "Politicians are idiots." and comparing the government of the greatest nation on the planet to the fucking Nazis for fucks' sake. Just pose a few solutions to terrorism. I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE to hear the shit you idiots would come up with. Hell, I need a good laugh!!
Oh, but it's probably far easier to mod me down than to actually think constructively instead of so damn critically.
Co-founder and designer at Music Nearby: http://musicnearby.com
there's a certain point when violating one's morals becomes a justified reason for refusal...i would like to think that that time has come in your system's case.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
You are exactly the problem of which I speak. People that wish to hide behind history and not learn from it.
I've studied history. My relatives are Cherokee. I've been to the reservation. I know that the reservations are sometimes the worst pieces of land in the US and that people often do poorly there.
No good can come from blaming eachother for the mistakes of someone that we never knew. It is irrational and wrong. Just because people have hurt eachother in the past doesn't mean they should do so today.
Dude, seriously, I've thought of petitioning the UN or some of our European allies to do exactly that. Trouble is, they're just as bought-and-paid-for as the rascals that got appointed to be in charge here in the US.
You think Fiji needs any IT help?
Oh and to the moderator who wasted a point modding down the parent as overrated... Dude, turn off Fox news and go outside for a while. Better yet, try to meet the seven out of ten who think Emperor Bush is doing a good job. Seriously, ask around. Ask everyone you meet and do your own poll. You'll be surprised, I guarantee it.
I was going to write about how it was your moral duty to make sure this never quite works right, like it accidentally includes the names of every top person at Treasury or something.
Then I just broke down and started to cry, so never mind.
Trusting a renamed TIA to protect our privacy is like trusting a repeat child molester to babysit your 6 year old daughter after he changes his name
to Alice the Babysitter.