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Do Online Schools Provide A Quality Education?
"After the dot com 'boom' settled down a bit, and I was no longer required to work 80 hrs a week, I decided that after ten years of being absent I would go back to school and finish up that elusive CS degree. Well, after shopping around a bit I found a very good, well known, University that was offering the degree, online.
'Cool,' I thought, no classes, all on my schedule, save gas, and I could work at 2 am if I wanted. I thought I had found the perfect way to learn.
BUT, after just one semester, I am starting to have my doubts. I am sure this is the way to go in the future, but I'm not so sure that the schools has got all the kinks worked out and I am beginning to believe that the professors, and possible even the schools, see this as a way for them to teach a class with a minimal amount of effort and cost.
You basically have a public conference area (a web based discussion group for comments) that you, the other students, and the professors participate in. This works very well because your assignments are given out on a weekly basis and you have a whole week to post comments and complete your assignments. You are required to participate in the discussions and then post your answers to quizzes in a private portfolio where it is graded by the professor and then returned to you.
Most of the professors participate in the conference like you are in a real classroom; with student asking questions and the professor responding, though, it is not real time.
But some of the professors only want you to post to the public discussion groups and never have you post to the private portfolio, basically this means they don't have to do anything accept scan the conferences and give out more assignments. They don't have to look over your work and give you any feedback. I bet it takes less than an hour a week to do this. Also, this allows other students to see the answers and just repost them.
The only thing this person seems to be doing is sitting on his butt all week; telling the students to just follow the syllabus for reading; and occasionally surfing the discussions groups to see who is there. That sounds like a very good deal for them, but I am not getting much out of this.
I also feel that ALL of the professors are very behind-the-times when it comes to IT. Just today I had a professor tell me she would not allow me to post a PDF file to my portfolio because she was worried about getting a virus when she read it?!
A few questions come to mind: Is this a quality education? Should the professors be required to show what they have done because they don't have a real classroom to attend? How much effort should a professor put forth for an online class? This has always been an issue in a real classroom, but now we have a whole new twist. Shouldn't professors be required to be a little more techno savvy before they give a course like this? Shouldn't the schools be reevaluating the 'new teaching style' and making some adjustments?
I am so angry with the way the school has set this up I will probably return to a normal class environment here at a local college, at least I know the guy is going to show up!
Has anybody else been to an online college? What were your experiences?"
I had an excellent experience at university of Phoenix Online. While I did experience a couple lazy instructors, there were requirements for daily discussion and interaction with other students about the material. This led to a situation where the material was covered in great depth almost in spite of the instructor.
With online courses you get exactly what you said. The biggest thing you are getting is credit. I have read lots of books, just reading them doesn't mean I learned anything. Credit is good.
It depends on the course.
Calculus - yeah, read the book, do the assignments, complete the exam. Hooray, you know calculus - you pass.
Literature - much more subjective, requires more work on the part of the professor/TAs.
It's important to note that many professors "skate" in real life university as well. They give the lectures, and the TAs do all the actual work. Some make themselves available between classes, some dont.
Quit whining.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
...which was interested in moving a few of their courses over to the web. I was hired to do much of the programming. At the end of the year when they did standardized tests and satisfaction surveys they found that the courses where they cut the in-class physical face time down to 20% of what it had been before and replaced that other 80% with interactive web content, the knowledge acquisition was almost identical and student satisfaction actually increased.
On the other hand, for the courses that they offered entirely on-line both knowledge acquisition (by performance on standaraduzed tests) and student satisfaction declined (something like 15 and 10 percent respectively, IIRC).
Now they have switched several other courses over completely to the 80/20 format, but offer fully on-line courses only as correspondence alternatives.
lysergically yours
Basically, in addition to the book, the sylibus, and the final exam, an online class should provide you with work (which you are supposedly motivated to do) and rapid responces to your work. Therefore allowing you to quickly learn by example and understand your mistakes. If you are able to motivate yourself, and already know enough about the subject to find your mistakes, you would be better off simply buying a book.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
I have looked into the on-line thing a bit, but the ones I have encountered are pretty high. In the range of $375 per credit hour, so a single course ends up costing about $1125. Thats a lot to take a course. What kind of prices is everyone else paying?
For example, my last class was a law and ethics class. I probably spent 20 - 25 hours a week working on my papers for that class. However, I was greatly appreciative of my professor of that class because he provided me with detailed homework assignments. In addition, when I got feedback from him, it was on the order of 3 pages long. However, my class before that was not as good. The professor in that class would just give me a grade and not tell me why I received that particular grade. However, all the of the professors that I have had have been very open about communication. In fact, my current accounting professor and I have talked every weekend since the class has started.
Maybe some schools take it seriously and others don't? But, I can tell that I am working my butt off. I haven't had a whole lot of slack time.
I did a C++ class on line. I withdrew and got a refund when I could.
My problems were partly due to the way the class was run and partly due to my own nature. I had a tough time getting work done because there was no 'scheduled' time for me to show up any where. Rack this up as a failure on my part but I just tend to be more successful at getting work done when I've got to show up to class and turn it in.
The lack of in class time was tough because I couldn't sit and look at examples while the instructor was there to talk about how things were done. I missed that time to discuss with the instructor and other students. I know I'm not the only one who struggled in that regard. I did meet up with another student early on and help her learn how to set up and use her compiler. (free borland compiler)
On the class failing side- when I emailed the teacher with questions, responses were not prompt. His lectures were posted and there was no good method for getting further information to clarify points made in the lecture, etc. It was basically as you describe. Read a book, do homework, take a final.
There may be some who can use the format to advantage but it did not work well for me.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
I do have some complaints, though:
- The whole curricula was the standard texts and notes "grafted" onto an online interface. The material and method of moving through it was a "transplant" of a traditional class lecture, lifted onto an online format. This does not work well - kind of like taking a book, scanning each page into a graphic file, then posting this as an online version.
- We were provided PowerPoint lecture notes taken from "live" lectures, though without the benefit of seeing the lectures (my suggestion : record the "real" lectures and have online students purchase as DVDs or VHS)
- I missed office hours and the ability to chat with knowledgeable graduate students when I got stuck. With some conceptually difficult material, you really have to hash over it with a live mentor to understand how it works.
- No real socialization with other students, owing to geography.
- "Group" projects were a nightmare of conference calls, online chats, emailing drafts back and forth, etc.
The good side is it allows folks with full time jobs to get degrees. It also allows folks to get specialized degrees that may only be available at a handful of institutions."dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
I only took 2 courses so far, and I am very impressed with how they handle and treat the program. Everyone invloved is very professional. The teachers actually go out of their way to accomodate both on and off campus students. My experience has been extremely pleasant, and I'm very satisfied with what they offer.
I took the traditional route and went to a brick and mortar school for my CS degree. While there, I met a number of very interesting people. Some of these people asked me to help them revive the school's sailing team. A boatload of CS and physics students engaged in a non-profit startup in the middle of the Hudson river is hardly what I expected, but I'm very glad that it happened to me.
Along the way I learned that graduate work is fun and picked up an MS degree as well.
While my education allows me to check the "has a BS" and "has an MS" boxes on job applications, the real benefit came from the faculty and students I met over the course of my four years.
That having been said, I think there is an enormous opportunity for online education. My education was expensive, and in this economy there is no guarantee that you will have a job on graduation. High quality schools have can accept only a limited number of students. The Internet is an incredible way to inexpensively disseminate information to a large number of people.
The original universities expanded substantially as books and paper became more and more available. Surely the internet will change education to an even greater extent.
Is anyone aware of a website that compares and contrasts various online university programs? Or allows people to discuss their respective experiences in some sort of forum? It seems that would be useful. But that could also be extended to "real-life" colleges as well.
This post was generated by a Cadre of Uber Monkeys for Monkey-Man2000 (603495).
I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about the amount of effort that some of my professors are putting forward in my courses. I feel like some of them are "skating"
Likely those professors feel exactly the same way about the students taking online courses.
There is an ongoing conservative perception in academia (not without merit) that, quite simply, people that are dead serious about obtaining a quality education are willing to make time for classes and all the homework they entail. I have spoken with a few of these teachers myself; they all felt that anyone whose schedule was already so packed that they couldn't find time to physically attend lectures and discussions was probably better off postponing their enrollment altogether until a point when they had the time and resources to properly devote toward a formal education, rather than risk acquiring something of potentially lower quality.
One of them went so far as to speculate on the much more involved feeling one gets when actually sitting in a classroom surrounded by dozens of students and with the professor lecturing authoritatively at the front. Basically, such a setting makes it all seem more real and therefore adds unconscious pressure to the participating students to take the class and its material seriously--as opposed to viewing absolutely everything to do with the class on your own comfortable monitor, in your own comfortable home, where any pressure to succeed in the class has to be entirely self-generated. And don't kid yourself: motivation can often be totally unreachable without a kick in the pants. Hence why some instructors penalize for non-attendance. They don't do it out of meanness, they do it because such a policy helps students to learn when the students are not willing to help themselves.
The coolest voice ever.
I enrolled at Mississippi State University through their distance learning program. There's a good chance someone you're watching on TV has been through this course. It's three years, 17 courses, 50 some odd credits. Until I'm totally finished, there's no need to go to Starkville, MS or anywhere close.
I am impressed with the idea and execution. My lectures are delivered on both VHS tape and DVD (I watch the lectures on DVD, though at double speed!). My textbooks are standard issue, same as are used at brick and mortar colleges. Each course features weekly untimed quizzes (10%), quarterly timed tests based on homework (30%) and a timed midterm (30%) and timed final (30%).
The lecturers/professors aren't polished TV people... but which of your profs were? There are different instructors/proctors online who monitor a bulletin board, answer questions and ride herd. They are mostly attentive and helpful.
The tests and quizzes are administered online and are multiple choice.
The courses are run using WebCT software, which I am told is pretty standard with distance learning.
As in "real" college, sometimes I have to study, other times I do not. I have learned some interesting things (having gone most of the way through my first year)... even one or two useful things.
After the first semester, my wife asked if I had learned anything? I said yes. But, she noted, "how important could it be if you didn't need it in the last 20 years?" And, of course, she was right.
I found it interesting that before I was accepted, I had to send my transcripts and SATs to MSU. I was surprised the College Board still had my numbers, taken in December 1967 (back when SAT scores ended in single digits and not tens). I'm curious what these ancient records could possibly say about me now? It is living proof that when your teachers said something would go on your permanent record, they weren't kidding!
As a 52 year old, in the middle of my career, with a wife and family, this is the only way to go back to school. I'm a proud to say I'm a straight "A" student, something I never even approached during my first, ill fated, trip to college 35 years ago.
I talk about some of these subjects from the instructor side on my own weblog, The Intuitive Life, in particular you might want to check out I thought students had lots of opinions? and Lazy students, a rant, both of which address the same basic question of student interaction.
If anyone has further questions that I can answer, please feel free to drop me a note!
I've never taught an online course before, but from talking to a lot of my colleagues (and my wife, who's a teacher), reality seems to be exactly the opposite of what you're saying: it's typically much more work for the professor to teach a course online. Look, teaching a traditional lecture course is an easy gig, if you don't care about doing a good job. You have a set of canned lectures that you deliver every semester. You drone on and on, pausing to ask for questions, but never pausing for long enough that anyone will really go ahead and ask one. If you want to, you can also engineer things so that you don't have a lot of grading to do: don't grade homework, don't require papers, make all the tests scantron, etc.
Teaching online is a huge amount of work the first time you do it, because you have to create a cr--load of stuff on the web.
At my school, people seem to have had very mixed luck teaching things online. A lot of them report that they end up getting all the worst students in the online sections, because the students perceive it as an easy way to take care of the course -- you don't even need to show up for lecture? -- kewl! It also tends to be more reading- and writing-intensive, which is a problem for a lot of students at less selective schools, who are operating at a remedial level in English, or who may not be native English speakers.
Find free books.
I actually had a horrible time in an online economics course I was taking for my university. I really hate driving for thirty minutes to get to my classes and I figured I'd knock out some of the easy courses online and work with my "own" schedule.
We had a similiar online forum or web board to discuss with other students and get help from the teacher. The problem was the teacher was supposed to answer any questions and reply to each of your posts, ours never bothered. This wasn't too bad, as some of the students had a better grasp of the subject than others.
The worst problem I encountered, was that our teacher was not computer literate. She had problems opening my RTF, TXT, and PDF files. Claiming they were "too large" for her computer or giving her "virii." These are only little paltry 100K files, and she's griping.
She would assign 0's for these assignments without any dispute because they violated her "on-time" policy. Out of all the worst experience I had with her was with deadlines. When Christmas vacation rolled around, I synced all of the January dates in my PDA and on my wall calendar so I could do them on-time when the break ended. When I came back to turn them in, the datches were mysteriously changed to the last day of the break.
Now assignments are always spaced by almost three days a piece, and these were too before the change. When I tried to contact her about the late assignments, and why the dates were changed (especially why I wasn't notified) she said I should have been checking the calendar during Christmas when they were changed. Sure. An email would have been nice.
Finally she gets feud up of my complaints, and writes my course liasion (the guy who sets you up for the course). The irony is that she forged the date on the email to look as if she sent it a week earlier. Sadly headers proved her horribly wrong and caught in a lie. I showed the liasion and he called the "school." Her claim was that she doesn't make sure her rig's clock is set appropriately. Sure. Her clock magically jumped a week back.
When the course ended, I had failed miserably, I would get the correct answers but 0's for her inability to open (or willingness to do so) my files. I called the school and asked for a refund to which they complied.
Sadly to this day she still spams me with "You are late," emails...
Just finished my Ph.D. at an on-line University. As some have said, you get what you put into it. With this particular uni, there were no semesters, but you were given a time limit to finish all the required courses and final paper (dissertation in my case).
Some of the courses were easy, and related to my interests, others made me get out the Calculus and DiffEQ books from 20+ years ago when I went the formal route for my BS/MS.
While its true that there were no formal classes - the professors/tutors were available upon request, and there is an on-line chat capability for others taking the same course.
I busted my butt harder in this program than I had in the two previous ones where I was attending meat-space classes. Of course, this time I was working full-time with a wife and a 4yr old son (at the start).
My biggest complaint is that my employer would not reimburse me because their policy was if a local uni is available, they don't pay for distance learning.
jerry
"Software is the difference between hardware and reality"
HSD official obtained Ph.D. from diploma mill
A high-ranking career official in the Homeland Security Department apparently obtained her doctorate from a Wyoming diploma mill.
Laura L. Callahan, now senior director in the office of department CIO Steven Cooper, states on her professional biography that she "holds a Ph.D. in Computer Information Systems from Hamilton University." Callahan, who is also president of the Association for Federal IRM and a member of the CIO Council, is commonly called by the title "Dr."
Callahan's resume says she began her civil service career in 1984. Before joining HSD, she was deputy CIO at the Labor Department.
Hamilton University, according to an Internet search, is located in Evanston, Wyo. It is affiliated with and supported by Faith in the Order of Nature Fellowship Church, also in Evanston. The state of Wyoming does not license Hamilton because it claims a religious exemption. Oregon has identified Hamilton University as a diploma mill unaccredited by any organization recognized by the U.S. Department of Education.
[...]
The big public (i.e. they have listed stocks) companies are DeVry (c'mon, techies should know this one), Strayer, Corinthian College, Career Education Corp, Education Management Corp, and Apollo Group (owner of UoP) and parent of separately-listed UoP Online.
UoP is the "gold standard" because they only do degree programs. The rest have greater or lesser participation in "diploma" programs, which could be anything from art school to diesel mechanics. (Think Sally Struthers, and I'm not talking about hungry kids.)
Two-thirds of the all the for-profit enrollment goes to these institutions. The rest mostly go to numerous privately-owned for-profit colleges.
The big guys all have online programs to some extent, while the little guys are also developing them thanks to online service providers like microcap EVCI, which used to be a videoconference company but now licenses software and acts a service provider for online education to many colleges, including some of the big ones.
All the big colleges are expanding by buying up the smaller institutions. However, already owning 2/3 of the space, they are now finding it tougher to expand profitably and have started buying things like Caribbean medical schools (Ross U.). Because of the way Title IV federal funding for education works, it is much more favorable to by a branch already in operation that to open a new one. To continue to expand, they have to gain students from the non-profit colleges, namely the community colleges.
At quick glance one can't tell a for-profit from a non-for-profit unless you check it out. And it's not clear that you should care too much--many non-profits are run basically for the benefit of administrators and faculty--that's who gets the economic profit!
The big difference used to be the aggressive recruiting by the for-profits, which has since been disallowed because the institutions would price whatever program (degree or diploma) at the level of the government loans and just sing people up, telling them that they didn't have to front any money. Then the poor bastards would graduate (or more often, not) 18 or 24 months later none the wiser, default on their loans, and the institution would still get paid, because the loans are government guaranteed (besides which, they already collected their money). New York state is now changing the law to at least withhold 1/3 of funds until the student actually graduates; it's a small hardship for students to raise the cash ( a few thousand) but will make a huge difference in eliminating the "no-money-down" type programs that really take advantage of people who believe everything they read in subway advertisements.
As you would expect, the for-profits are quicker to sell what they know people want to buy. And many people want cheap, easy degrees. Particularly in government service, it doesn't matter where you get your degree, as long as it's from an accredited institution, which almost all institutions aside from pure diploma mills (and a number of law schools) are. Like people said, I'm sure you could learn a lot online if you were really excited about the material. But most people aren't paying for the material; they are (or should be) paying for the structure and feedback that they need to help (force) themselves to learn the material, just like hiring a personal trainer.
The online degrees may be a great deal for the first people to get them, before employers get wise to the average level of learning completed. Then the backlash will come.
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a big part of going to school is learning to do new things--getting better at the things you're not already good at. Focussing on the stuff you already do well kind of makes the whole exercise moot.