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School May Turn Down $43K In Free Macs

Posted by timothy on from the hobgoblin-of-little-minds dept.

Longfeather writes "Tukwila, Washington's cash-strapped Foster High School may have to turn down US$43,000 worth of free Macs because of a PC-only IT policy already in place. Read here(1) and here(2)." Surely some school would be willing to bend (or rethink) policy rather than turn away new computers.

18 of 203 comments (clear)

  1. Another deal with the Devil goes bad by Gruturo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I foresee that, as a result of this brilliant strategy, many of the parents might move their kids to other schools, and this story will add to the long list of people who signed a deal with the Devil and ended up pretty badly.

    (Hint: as the article says, 2 years ago the school won a $427.000 grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. Sure, this is totally unrelated and I believe it)

    The fun part is that it says the refusal is due to the school's policy of only having Windows PCs in order to keep maintenance costs and staff down. Too bad they already have many Macs around.

    I hope Apple makes this story very, very public

    --

    Vacuum cleaners suck. Kings rule.
    1. Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad by Zelet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I did a study at my university because the Science department had to eliminate a lab. We had two Windows PC labs and a Mac lab. Part of this study was to find TCO for each lab. In short we found that the Macs were significantly cheaper in the long run. This was for a couple of reasons (there were more but these were the most significant:
      1. Longer lifespan for both hardware and software for Macs
      2. Administration costs were lower (hours of tech needed for each lab
      3. Licensing was cheaper

      We found that once we purchased the Macs the actual cost to maintain the Mac lab was almost nothing. A single tech could take care of the unix servers and the mac lab while each of the other labs needed two techs a piece.

      They got rid of a PC lab.

      --
      ...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
    2. Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad by Ioldanach · · Score: 2, Interesting
      2) The article also points out that the Macs in use are for teachers who prefer them. Presumably, a teacher who is familiar enough with Macs to have a preference for them needs little in the way of tech support to maintain his/her personal Mac.

      Careful with those assumptions there... I have a friend who works for the local school districts. Apparently teachers are some of the worst problems on the network. They mess with settings until the computer is all out of whack, and expect tech to just fix it. Heaven forbid, though, that the tech should happen to lose any of their data in making it work again. Most don't know the difference between a local disk and the network disk, so when their computer crashes and has no backup they blame the tech. Of course, if they'd followed policy and numerous repeated instructions, by saving to the network drive, it would all be backed up.

      And that's just the stories I can think of off the top of my head, they do get worse than that.

    3. Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad by Zelet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I was going to reply but you hit the nail on the head. There are a couple of things I would like to add.

      High school students are going to be a LOT tougher on equipment than students at university, so in terms of hardware longevity a comparison between the two is invalid on its face.

      Even if they are tougher the comparison is still valid. If two people beat equipment the same way the poorer equipment is still going to fail first. That is the reason we saw 2 year turnover for our PCs and 6 year turnover on the Macs. We still have a Mac from 1984 running as a server to collect weather data from accross the state. It hasn't been rebooted since the last tech took over. That was two years ago. Another reason is that Apple works hard to make sure their software is backward compatible. We could run Macs for 6 years because the software would work seamlessly with the newest Macs.

      There is talk of another round of budget crunching and we may have to merge the two labs. There isn't enough space for all the computers and the decision has already been made to get rid of the extra PCs and keep all the Macs. First because they are so much cheaper in the long run and second because of such high demand from both the students and the teachers. Not only that but our Xserve and Linux servers play nicely with the Macs and we don't have to worry about a service pack breaking everything with an undocumented change.

      --
      ...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
    4. Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad by mythr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I did notice the same trend at my university, where I worked as a tech for a while to pay tuition. I think this is mainly influenced by the fact that Mac's do not have floppy drives. I swear that almost 90% of the things we got sent out to fix on PC's were the floppy drives. Some idiot would try to pull their disk out the wrong way and leave the metal sleeve in the drive. The software problems were negligible because only artists used any of the Mac's, and the rest, for the most part, sat there at the login screen all semester. The other hardware (ie. not floppy related) problems were essentially equal between the two platforms, and both quite low.

    5. Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad by pi+radians · · Score: 5, Interesting

      A few years ago I was attending school to become a systems analyst. During that time we were all required to lease an IBM ThinkPad and soley use PCs throughout the time in class. We learnt how to program in VB and we were all taught the ins and outs of Office. When the opportunities for co-op came around everyone was competing against each other for jobs. Basically we all had the same skills.

      I had only one interview and it basically went like this:

      President (of the company): "Have you ever used a Mac?"
      Me: "Yes I have, for about 15 years."
      President: "Can you start on Monday?"
      Me: "Yes I can."

      Thanks to the fact that I am extremely proficient on both PCs (Windows or Linux) and Macs I got one of the best co-ops available. It is now my full time employment (I have since graduated) and I would have to be crazy to look for another job.

      Just so you know, thanks to a particular "dirty, weather beaten feather" attitude many people have today towards different computing platforms I am the only one of my peers that can travel and the drop of a hat (just got back from Alaska), afford basically anything I want and spend the majority of the time having fun at work instead of trying to sell cellphones at the local mall.

      Don't ever think that knowledge, in any respect, is a waste and never advise someone that only their skills on only the most popluar mediums will get them through life.

      Variety == Spice

      --

      sin(6cos(r)+5A)
    6. Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad by pmz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There isn't enough space for all the computers and the decision has already been made to get rid of the extra PCs and keep all the Macs.

      Just a thought: You could get a second-hand Sun SPARCstation 20 or Ultra 1 workstation...just to stir things up a bit. Just seeing that odd-looking beige and purple pizzabox on the corner desk would embed in the students' minds that there really are alternatives out there beyond Microsoft and Apple. Solaris isn't a bad first UNIX, either, and is a good stepping-stone to Linux, especially Red Hat.

      Another good option (and probably more feasible) would be putting Linux or NetBSD on a couple of the macs (maybe one of each!).

      --
      Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
    7. Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad by Basehart · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I still can't believe Bank Of America here in Seattle is still using Mac SE's. They are slowly being phased out (after what, 15 yrs) in favor of PC's but who could possibly argue that those particular Mac's weren't a good deal?!

    8. Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad by KU_Fletch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can back that statement up with my experience. I got to sit on a hiring committee for a new staff position that was responsible for being the technology "outreach" coordinator to students (letting them know about services, labs, computer deals through the university, etc). Because our labs are about 75% PC / 25% Mac and we have a good contract with Mac for shwocase technology, Mac knowledge was crucial. In the 400 something applications I had to sift through, I eliminated (by policy, not choice) 370 applications because they mentioned no experience with Macs.

      The job market wants students to learn as much as possible about as much as possible (to steal a bad marketing phrase). Teaching kids how to use PCs AND Macs will benefit them so much years down the line. Hell, exposing the kids to computer use benefits them PERIOD.

      As the teacher said "In a time of serious budget crunches in the schools, for them to turn down a gift of $43,000 just seems asinine." Couldn't have phrased it better myself.

      --
      It's not stupid. It's advanced.
  2. Fscked Up by fordgj · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work in the seattle school district, they are very PC centric, but they would NEVER do such a thing. I feel sorry for the teacher, it is his class and his kids that will be most affected on this. It is utterly rediculous for bean counters who don't understand technology to make this decision. Their tech support is scared, they don't understand the macs and don't want to. I personally manage a mixed platform school and I by far prefer maintaining the macs, my life is easier because of them. The fact is, there are studies showing that macs have a lower total cost of ownership. Plus, they are just better computers for education, hands down. They would be foolish to turn down this offer. The school board, for its pompous attitude should pony up the money personally to substitute other computers if they continue to pursue such a stupid policy. They are wrong, only the kids will suffer from their bias and incompetence.

  3. This doesn't make sence by zoloto · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Time to burn some karma


    But even without the 30 new Macintosh computers, Foster will have a stash of Macs around the school. A caveat of the technology plan allows teachers to keep their Macs at their desks instead of getting a PC if they wish. In addition, the library and a graphics classroom can keep their Macs


    THe article mentions this rediculous policy for PC only systems because of their IT staff and quite frankly it's foolish. IT departments, personel etc. are constantly updating their knowledge to better deal with emerging technologies, right? Why an IT department can't have 3 of those in-DUH-viduals learn about MAC systems?

    I've worked in almost half a dozen IT departments and we constantly were exposed to systems that were good for various reasons, and we had to learn. Failure to do so resulted in eventual 'replacement'. That included MAC systems. And it didn't cost the department any extra, for us to learn and actually use with some degree of success these systems. Sure we brought stuff home to learn with (including a handy g4 tower, but that's another story) but isn't that a part of the job??

    The ignorant attitude of the administrative personel (probably influenced by the IT depts. unwillingness to learn mac's for some biased reason) shows their competence in the field.

    just my 0.02Â - mod on!
  4. School Districts have interesting problems by stevew · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I advise my son's elementary school concerning all things that are computer related. School districts are interesting entities - There are so many dynamics running around (and different turf wars) it isn't even funny.

    1) Many teachers are computer illiterate. They don't like being shown up by their students who are mostly not computer jocks because they've grown up with them!

    2) Software used on campus has to be approved for use by students. This is required because teachers need to be trained on the software, hardware & OS compatibility needs to be assured, and the appropriateness of the application need to be accessed. All this usually costs money.

    3) The support staff has to know how to support the hardware and software that you already have. Someone earlier said - IT guys/gals are ALWAYS upgrading their knowledge. You probably don't work for a school district!

    4) School districts typically under-estimate the cost of an IT infrastructure by orders of magnitude. They have extremely in-adequate support for staff, software, and hardware support issues. Our district has roughly 50 schools at the K-12 level. Assuming about 100 computers per site you are talking 5000 machines. The district has 5 staff people to support all of this. Further, they don't budget for the up-keep of anything.

    These staff are responsible for the district internet infrastructure, the network infrastructure at each school (much of which was put in place by volunteers with no documentation), repair and up-keep of all computers both at each school site and the district office. Just 5 people do all this. Yeah -right.

    Let's say you get a donation of 20 Macs - that's great. These machines are going can be expected to have a 10 year life time. There are still Apple II'c in use on my son's campus!

    5) Planning a district infrastructure is a nitemare because school budgets are a moving target, you receive donations from all over the board. It's a true patch-work. It's amazing anything works!

    So - I'm not suprised they turn something like this down!

    --
    Have you compiled your kernel today??
  5. Unbelievable by chia_monkey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Unfreakin' believable. I'll admit, I've got a slight Mac bias. I've worked on PCs, I've worked on Macs. I know what's easier to fix. I know that studies have shown you need something like one technician for every 50 Macs whereas you need one technician for every 25 PCs. Downtime costs money too...

    But the main point...it's just dumb to say "you can only use one computer system". What if they said "you can only use Ticonderoga pencils" even if you got a whole shipment of Bic mechanicals for free? Or who knows how many other goofy scenarios could happen.

    Our schools are having a hard enough time as it is. To turn down free materials is just plain idiotic.

    --

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
  6. Re:If they don't want 'em... by nycroft · · Score: 4, Interesting

    but they will cost more in maintenance and training

    I disagree. Any IT person worth his salt can learn to support Macs on a network in about a day, probably just by himself, too. OS X makes networking really easy. There really is no need to map special folders on servers anymore. And besides, Macs are the king of cross-platform integration. Files, sharing, etc. are already taken care of.

    As for hardware support, the guts are pretty much the same as PCs. In fact, things like driver issues are not even a consideration. Therefore, switching out drives and PCI cards, etc. is super easy! Actually, the end user or lab advisor probably doesn't need even need an IT person for hardware support. They can do it themselves.

    It really boils down to Macs being alien to most people. They are afraid that if they use a Mac or if somebody gives them a Mac, their lives will be severely disrupted. But it won't. And again, the Macs are free, they don't have to keep them, they can trade with another school district, or sell them on eBay or something. If anything, they will save or even make money off of those Macs.

    --
    Mr. Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time is enemy action.
  7. Bi-lingual by tipbg4 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When I went to highschool long ago (2 years ago) we had a computer science teacher/system admin that firmly believed in being bilingual as far as computers were concerned. He himself being a Mac guy obviously knew what their advantages were, how easy they were to use and maintain. But he also knew that not every place in the world supported macs (including our own school board that forced him to resign after they had enough of him proving their purchases of large ammounts of windows boxes to be erronious and far more costly) However, while I was there, I did learn to be bilingual (and picked up his personal prefrence for macs) Now that I am out of school, I work for a web page company that runs totally windows boxes. This was fine, except that I had a far superior titanium laptop at home that was being largely unused while at work. So (with the boss's permission, I got a few help articles together, and brought the TI into work. within 5 mins my computer was connected to the server just like all the other computers, with one major difference. My computer has yet to be nearly as problematic as the rest... kinda funny considering its a windows server...

  8. Re:Ignorance and FUD by dtfarmer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's Washington state.

    Actually, it's not just Washington State. It's probably more Foster High School. An ex-girlfriend of mine went there back in the early 90's (she did the community college thing her junior and senior years because the academic programs at FHS were so poor).

    Anyway, I showed her the story last night, and she said "Figures. I thought they were morons then, and it seems they haven't changed."

  9. Anyone? by dacetone · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Pay taxes in Washington? King County? Tukwila even? Even bought a Washington lottery ticket? Feel like this is a waste of your money? Write a letter (Tukwila School District 4640 S 144th St. Tukwila, WA 98168), or email or call the Superintendent (Michael Silver, silverm@tukwila.wednet.edu, 206.901.8009). Sadly, the actual board members or chairman have no contact info listed, and email to lastnamefirstinitial@tukwila.wednet.edu bounces for the Chairman. As a person with a few years of tech support experience for Washington school districts (luckily, not Tukwila), I find it not unsurprising that this would happen, but it disgusts me nontheless.

    --
    Just follow the day, and reach fo
  10. 6 people on the IT staff!!! by gozar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    According to their website, they have 2,600 students. I'm the technology coordinator for a school district with 2,200 students and ~700 computers (97% Mac).... Guess how many IT people we have?

    One.... I handle everything from setting the machines up to networking to adding users. Every student gets a file server account that follows them from 1st to 12th grade. All students in 6-12 get an e-mail account. Every computer is networked.

    This district will be getting a call from me tomorrow, and a letter to the editor to the King County Journal.

    --
    What, me worry?