Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Syllable's Kristian Van Der Vliet Interview

Posted by Hemos on from the write-your-own dept.

Andreas Louca writes "OSNews.com has a nice interview with Syllable's Project Leader, Kristian Van Der Vliet. Syllable is one of the teams that raised off the ashes of AtheOS. They talk about the future of Syllable and the current status. "

10 of 123 comments (clear)

  1. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A nitpick:

    This OS looks really cool, but I just want to know: years and years since LiteStep or AfterStep or Windowmaker or whatever the first attempt to make "a NextStep-like window manager", and the "open source community" still can't seem to produce a GUI that doesn't look exactly like a less-stylish version of NeXTStep.

    I guess that isn't *bad*.. it's just funny.

    Besides this, though.. I am firmly convinced that "open source" is going to go nowhere until the Community realizes that everyone except you absolutely HATES the way that Motif looks. No, saying "it has skins" is *never* an acceptable answer. If your product, out of the box, has that faux-3D, Motif/NextStep/Netscape 4 look to it *anywhere*, people will not want to use it.

  2. Sounds cool, but... by the+morgawr · · Score: 5, Insightful
    So we have yet another hobby OS with some very good ideas that will never end up going mainstream. After checking the site out, nothing they're doing couldn't be done on top of a BSD or Linux based kernel (with modification ofcourse). This would have solved their hardware problems, and given them a fully working OS to start from, progams and all.

    For Open Source and Free Software to succeed people need to stop making "yet another peice of software written from scratch". The strength of having the source is that you can modify it for your own use (like syllable is doing with the GNU tool chain) and not have to re-invent the wheel. The argument of "what's out there isn't good enough" doesn't fly either. You have the source to fix it and make it better!

    While this seems like a cool project, it is taking away developers who could be adding the same great features and abilities to our current systems. Then again, maybe I don't understand what they are trying to do.

    --
    The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
    1. Re:Sounds cool, but... by jabbadabbadoo · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "So we have yet another hobby OS with some very good ideas that will never end up going mainstream. After checking the site out, nothing they're doing couldn't be done on top of a BSD or Linux based kernel (with modification ofcourse). This would have solved their hardware problems, and given them a fully working OS to start from, progams and all."

      What's the fun in that?

    2. Re:Sounds cool, but... by kalidasa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For Open Source and Free Software to succeed people need to stop making "yet another peice of software written from scratch". The strength of having the source is that you can modify it for your own use (like syllable is doing with the GNU tool chain) and not have to re-invent the wheel.

      So in other words, Linus working on his own operating system kernel was just taking good developers away from HURD, right?

      If we follow your logic, we'll be stuck with Linux and BSD forever. Not that Linux and BSD aren't great, but they are not perfect, and at some point "making them better" won't be enough anymore. You need to have constant experimentation with OSes or you'll never know what's possible (and you'll never replace all those OS programmers with a new generation).

    3. Re:Sounds cool, but... by powerlinekid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fair enough.
      Well I am one of the developers from Syllable (Syllable-Net team leader to be exact) so maybe I can answer your question.

      The argument of "what's out there isn't good enough" doesn't fly either. You have the source to fix it and make it better!

      Have you ever played with the linux internals? Or hacked on X or KDE? If you have, you know its a mess. Syllable is a consistent system built on modern ideas. We don't have 20 years of cruft to fight with everytime we need to make a change or add a feature. This alone is worth the effort.

      Now most importantly: Our main developers code on Syllable because its fun. I have a blast throwing ideas back and forth between Vanders, Rick, Kaj, and all the others. If someone has a problem with some specific widget (recently the tab issue in our terminal), we work together to fix it. I don't think any of us are working on this to get rich. For the most part its also the whole "scratch an itch" philosophy. Just because we work on this OS, doesn't mean we'd work on another one. Thats like saying that just because I pirated a copy of Windows that I cost MS $200 because I would of bought it anyway. The world doesn't work like that.

      We have a great community, a great project manager in Vanders and great developers. All of us keep our eyes on the user's needs, not on what we as developers want. As time goes on and more infrastructure is laid down, you'll see Syllable become more mature. Simple things that can be a hassle on Linux (gui consistancy, simple application notification through a central Registra, etc) will be in place.

      Anyway, don't give up on Syllable yet. In the future it will be much different from Linux, BSD, Windows or anything else. Remember we're not even a year old yet (although AtheOS has been around for a while).

      --

      can't sleep slashdot will eat me
    4. Re:Sounds cool, but... by syle · · Score: 3, Insightful
      While this seems like a cool project, it is taking away developers who could be adding the same great features and abilities to our current systems.
      I hate this type of arrogant mentality. The whole point of the open source community is that everyone should be able to work on whatever they want, NOT that everyone should be working on Linux.

      Yeah, I know Linux and BSD are great and all, but who the hell are you to judge what these guys should or shouldn't be spending their time on? Maybe you've read too many articles about the RIAA/MPAA, "For every CD copied, we lose a sale," -- "For every developer working on non-Linux systems, we lose a Linux developer." I'm afraid it doesn't work like that.

      I'm not going to bother arguing whether your assertation that they could use a Linux kernel is valid or not, because it's completely irrelevant. If the developers wanted to use Linux, they would. They chose not to. Do you imagine the thought just never crossed their mind?

      We may all be a team in the sense that most open source developers have similar goals, but not in the sense that you can refer to "our current systems" in any meaningful context.

      --

      /syle

  3. Hmm. by teamhasnoi · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Forgive me for asking, but what does Syllable deliver (or propose to) that some other os doesn't? (say linux, openBeos, QNX or *gasp*, windows?)

    I would love it if all the 'hobby' oses, combined forces and worked on one thing, like openBeos (soon to be renamed ;)

    I am not biased, either.

    OpenBeos High School Football RULEZ!!!

    1. Re:Hmm. by DrWhizBang · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Syllables featureset is not express in terms of what it can do, but what it will do ;-)

      Syllable does not use X or the linux kernel - it uses it's own SMP and fully preemptable kernel, it's own 64 bit filesyste (with attributes). and it's own alpha-channal-aware display server. It uses a C++ API that is similar to beos. And it is completely free.

      In the end, we expect syllable to be a os that is nice to work with - easy to use, easy to program. Since it does not use X as a display server, It provides its own toolkit. This will help applications maintain one look and feel. Although most posix apps can be ported (a la ./configure, make, make install), Syllable will be most powerful when native apps are written using the fs api's to store/index data, etc. It should compare more to beos and macos x than linux or qnx.

      There are other hobby OSes. Syllable just happens to be reasonably far along (thanks to Kurt Skauen) and seems to have a lot of momentum (thanks to Vanders.)

      --
      Schrodinger's cat is either dead or really pissed off...
  4. How do you maintain order and good design? by Nicolai+Haehnle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've been lurking on the AtheOS/Syllable mailing lists for a long time now. For a time I had the feeling that, given enough time, Syllable could really become a great operating system, because people were thinking in terms of clean design, looking at the big picture.

    In the last few days, there has been an explosion of activity on the mailing list, and maybe it's just my pessimistic self, but I think the focus has shifted away from clean design to features. If this trend continues, and Syllable falls victim to featuritis and coding without the big picture in mind, it'll simply end up as yet another operating system.

    Do you agree that this is a problem? If so, do you think it will be possible to keep this trend in check or even reverse it?

  5. Re:Commodity Hardware by kalidasa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. Do you think that hardware interfaces haven't been increasing in complexity until USB came out?

    RTFA. He's talking about writing operating systems from scratch. Who do you think writes the abstraction layers?

    The point is that as each new hardware interface is developed, it is significantly more complex than the preceding one, and it becomes harder and harder for a hobbyist programmer to comprehend it.