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Win4Lin 5.0 Reviewed
uninet writes "About a month ago, NeTraverse contacted OfB Labs with an early release copy of Win4Lin 5.0, the follow-up to the already impressive Win4Lin 4.0 released in May 2002. Win4Lin, for those not familiar with it, offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box so that one can run Windows 9x (95/98/Me) inside GNU/Linux."
I didn't have the patience to create an account at win4lin.com - is there a free downloadable version available?
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
yet you think it's unreasonable for people to criticize these coders who blatantly copy Windows
This is a virtualization program. A bit like VMWare... you still have to obtain (ahem) a copy of windows.
why would I want to run the any of the 9x-based Windows? 95 is pretty aweful (compared to what is available now); both 98 and Me have a pretty bloated feel. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to mention any of the new Windows, XP and 2K, which are arguably the best and therefore most desireable. Does anyone know if 2000/XP can be run?
How about running Linux on Windows? Then maybe people would be more inclined to test the waters of the Linux world. Think of it as a way to migrate users off of the M$ titty.
Life is not for the lazy.
Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need.
Except for Windows applications.
What's wrong with Wine?
I believe applications such as this do not include windows... they simply give you a virtual system where you can install and run windows on. no one is copying look feel or function, they are simply allowing you to run a licensed copy of windows on top of Linux.
cygwin...! I use it everyday!
There is no god
Since you can't run the newest games on any of those, it's not really an issue. Native ports won't happen until there's enough of a market and there won't be enough of a market until there's enough users and there won't be enough users until there's enough apps and so on in an endless loop.
The above-mentioned apps are to break this unfortunate cycle and get people on to Linux, which must be a good thing.
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
Win4lin needs to be free, as it is important for people switching over to Linux. Something similar to the "free blender" campaign may be in order... I know I'd donate quite a bit to the fund.
VMware at least boots up a virtual machine (like another PC within your PC) that runs the OS. VMware runs on windows and linux and can boot many varieties of DOS, windows, linux and *BSD on either OS.
As far as running linux apps on windows without a VM... many linux apps are cross platform and can be run on windows with a recompilation, since tools like Cygnus have a version of gcc and the headers etc for windows. There's many examples - gaim, the gimp, etc etc. This doesn't work the other way as most windows apps are binary-only, and we don't have the source code in order to port/recompile them on linux.
There was even an effort a while back to allow linux binaries to run on windows by emulating the linux system calls (kinda like the opposite of wine). I don't think there's much point to this really though as most apps can just be recompiled as the source is available.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of things people need Windows (or other specific operating systems) for.
There's no Linux equivalent to Microsoft Money, for example -- not something that can connect to my bank automatically and get statements and process transfers without having to import and export qif files. Same with Microsoft Streets&Trips -- there's simply no equivalent.
I can't connect a Linux box to my work's VPN either -- there's no working client.
And if I managed to do so, what would I use to connect to the Exchange server to get my emails and appointments?
Then there is, as the previous poster stated, the issue of games. Linux games are few and far between, especially 3D games.
Oh, and watching DVDs? (Legally, that is)
That said, there's similar cases where Unix-like systems can offer what Windows can't. cygwin helps, sure, but that's just like running a Windows emulator under Linux.
The real problem I see with the product is that Windows 9x isn't going to be supported for much longer, and new software more and more often require an NT5+ based OS (Windows 2000/XP/2003).
In which case Windows 9x compatibility won't help too much...
Regards,
--
*Art
I stopped reading right there. No thanks. I left my kernel patching days behind me when I tossed Slackware in favour of Red Hat four years ago. I don't want to deal with that shit any more.
an i say this in all seriousness.. why? why do you need this? seriously if you are going to use windows apps in emulation mode, either install windows or go for the better althernative OSX.
I switched to osx from linux 2 weeks ago, and it is wonderfult o be abel to use my linux apps under X11 while running word, ie and a bunch of commercial games. OSX is the best thing to use if you want unix and commercial app and game support.
Why emualate a third class OS when you have option of using it natively under *nix?
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
This 5.0 release seem pretty pointless to me. Win95/98/Me has never been in use in any sane production environment. Either people are still using NT or they've moved on to 2000/XP a long time ago.
If this should have been useful it would have had to emulate 2000/XP as well. IMHO this is near pointless software.
Let's admit it, Gimp ****ing s***s
Hmm, not to kind to the GIMP development team and I happen to know a lot of GIMP users who disagree with that statement. It works for me and many others. Maybe you should read more, or just be happy with using your own tools, or in the alternative convince the software makers of the applications that you want them on Linux? Seems like that could get you what you want better than criticizing the GIMP team, which doesn't get you what you want.
Not a flame, just a comment.
All Ad hominem replies happily ignored as the sender shall be deemed to lack the faculties to comprehend the equation.
Uh... hate to break it to you, but game developers aren't going to release their games for Linux regardless. The market is just too small. Every developer who has released anything for Linux has done so for one of two reasons: 1) to provide a dedicated server package only, since Linux makes an excellent server platform and you don't have to deal with graphics in a dedicated server, 2) Because they want to.
It makes absolutely no financial sense to release a game for Linux -- the market is too small, the market you're going after (individuals running Linux as opposed to corporations) is too hostile to commercial development, and the graphics support is generally completely different from what you have available in Windows (yeah, it's the same if you write for OpenGL, but there's a helluva lot more support for writing DirectX).
Yes, I run Linux. I also run Windows. Linux makes for an excellent server, an incredible development platform, and it's just fine for web surfing, but I still wouldn't recommend it as a desktop replacement to the average user, nor as a gaming box. Windows is a mediocre server, fine for web surfing, a decent development platform (obviously better than Linux if you're developing for Windows exclusively, but I'm a Unix coder so I'm biased), and a great gaming platform. Use the platforms where they perform well... if you want to use any single platform for all tasks, well, you're going to have gnashing of teeth whenever you hit the weak spots.
The obvious question is, how do you solve those weak spots, and I don't have a really good answer. But as far as gaming goes, I do suspect the answer will be improve Windows emulation, not try and woo developers over to Linux. It's a harsh reality.
to run win4lin you have to have a windows distro cd. at that point you might as well just run a dual boot system or even a separate box. plus, after using linux for years, i have yet to find a reason to have to go back to using windows (sure there are some win exclusive aps out there, but you can dual boot into those if you need to). all i see win4lin as is a nice hack, but a rahter bothersome and slow way to run windows if you honestly have to.
-Cnik
I am astounded at the backlash the readers of ./ have vented at Netraverse. You people have never tried the product, but are willing to make unfounded claims about its speed and ability. I have used Win4Lin since the release of version 4, and I can tell you why you would use it, how it runs, and why it is cool:
I use it to encode videos in DivX format. DivX.com is the partner with one of my clients, and they do not have a encoding app for my mac, and the linux version is not as flexible (CLI) as the windows codec. So I run Adobe Premiere, Virtual Dub, and DivX 5.0.2 from within Linux! Prior to Win4Lin I had to reboot my machine to get into win2k for encoding. This has saved me so much time and frustration it is amazing. Also, I can simply back up the windows related directories (which are installed in my home folder on linux) and then I never have to install windows again, I can just install Win4Lin and restore the directories complete with programs, file associations, and serial numbers!
Win4Lin is fast! I noticed an incredible speed difference with windows 98 on a PIII 533 with 512 MB RAM! The OS booted in seconds even with Linux running with all of the bells and whistles of KDE (most of them anyways). Windows 98 is much, much snapier. And if it crashes (win98), I can easily kill the process and restart it in seconds! No rebooting, no headaches.
Finally, if you, as a geek, can not see the inherent coolness of running a virtual OS at higher than native speeds from within Linux, then you are no geek of mine... I have messed with WINE for years, hours of frustration to get the most basic apps working... but for a nominal fee (sometimes closed source is okay) I can get more work done, spend less time in windows, save my uptime, and forget about rebooting headaches! Have you ever tried to emulate win98 with VirtualPC on a mac?!? If you need windows, and your apps require speed, Win4Lin is the way to go. Period.
Ideally, Win4Lin would be open source, but these people have coded an incredible piece of software which was, to me, well worth the licensing fee! I don't need the true bloat of win2k or XP (nor do I need the EULA headaches!) all I need is a few win32 apps (for encoding video) and win4lin pulls this off for me with relative ease. No you can't play games, but shouldn't you be working anyways? Honestly, the waste of doing this with win2k or XP is obvious. If you just need the apps, you usually won't need all of the services and overhead that come with the latest versions of windows. Win98 runs most programs (albeit somewhat unstable) very quickly, it is solid in the sense that Linux isn't going to be brought down with it, it boots like a madman, and it does just about everything I need.
Quit being cheap, buy a copy and try it out. The support is very responsive, they have an active mailing list, and it actually does what the company claims. A successful Linux only vendor who provides support, upgrades, and a useful product. This is a model for other vendors regardless of OS!
..but I still can't sell this to the Big Wigs upstairs.
Why? Because Windows 98 is on its way out. All of our proprietary software runs in Windows 95/98, but the new version coming out next month uses Windows 98 and up ONLY. I expect next year (or maybe 2005) it will be phased out much like Windows 95.
Let's face it, not one new machine built today comes with Windows 98 SE. And let's not get into the train wreck that was ME.
What I'm saying is we can't deploy linux on a large scale, even if it will run on our propriety software, until I know it will last at least 3 years (the usual PC-replacement development cycle).
So while I'd love to get this up and running for The Powers that Be, until something that's even more advanced and is guaranteed to support Windows 2000 or XP only apps comes along, no endorsement here can be made.
Of course, the irony is that were we to support this and purchase it for our organization that it would fund the win2k/xp only program support, however, just giving it the once over, what about USB devices such as WinCE devices (yes, a lot of execs do use them...my Tungsten T is the one palm of the whole place), printers, et al. Plus all the weird hardware that my org. relies on, such as high load scanners.
And if you've had any time in sys admining, vendors love to blame things like odd operating systems if their buggy software doesn't work the first time out.
Sigh. I push Linux every time I can around here (I'm the resident Linux Guy of the IT dept.), but it's just not there yet.
The issue isn't entirely about simply getting around the Windows license (that's part of it, don't get me wrong). The issue also includes the fact that I want to run some Windows apps while still doing Linux stuff. This means that some sort of sandbox/emulator is necessary (wine, win4lin, vmware, etc) so that I can run IE on rare occasion to test stuff while not having to reboot into Windows mode. As an added benfit, if the emulator is written correctly, my machine won't need a reboot simply because Windows crashes -- only the Windows apps would.
Besides, emulation is important for legacy applications.
Bingo.
A lot of folks are happy as clams running their small business on 5-15 year old versions of Windows.
MS is using every means it can to force those users into buying new versions of the OS, new versions of applications, new subscriptions to ?
If a Linux box can allow them to extend the life of their legacy Windows system, that's a benefit to them.
Then, because the basic platform is Linux, they have the opportunity to write new apps on that platform, instead of being restricted to Windows only.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I don't think there will be a native port of MS Office very soon. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mac version's days are numbered, what with IE being cancelled.
What you are forgetting here is IE was free. MS Office for Mac was never free. Microsoft is the leading software manufacturer for Mac and I doubt they would do anything to loose that market.
Microsoft may never choose to release MS Office for linux but that has nothing to do with their Mac Software division.
Wine already does this for some DirectX stuff, including 3D (Transgaming). I don't think it would be that hard to make VMware (or Win4Lin if you really feel that's what you want) do something similar.
;)
The only reason I can think of as to why it hasn't been done is because the market is too small. Lets face it, this is really only for gamers and are gamers gonna pay $300 for VMware just so they can run games in Linux? Or even $100 for Win4Lin? Not likely. At least with VMware it's going to take a fairly large effort to virtualize an entire 3D accelerated graphics card. It's not impossible though.
I'd really like to have that functionality myself so I'm hoping one day we'll have 3D support. I'll continue to push the "VMware needs to support the 3D modeling and CAD market" suggestion.
And nobody ever said they wanted full performance in a virtualized environment. I mean there is some overhead, but even so, with modern hardware it's quite fast.
Virtualization is fine while we're in this transition state (you know, everyone transitioning to Linux
The ratio of people to cake is too big
I'm just wondering: Couldn't you push Linux for the things that Linux is good for? Get two or three machines for starters, just running the servers?
Then get one to two for work, and on those put Win4Lin. Argue that as a supplement, it's better. Then when someone wants to be using MS Word, they'll think "Fast or slow? I'll pick fast."
Next, start pushing hiring decisions in favor of those who know how to use and program Linux, where their spare time could be used to help script and such.
Doing it this way, you could argue that the company depends less on any one system, and is more resilient for surprise customer requests.
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