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PDD, Asperger, and Geek Syndrome?
brainWaves asks "Recently I found out I have some Pervasive Developmental Disorders, especially Asperger disorder or a 'PDD-Not Otherwise Specified' (PDD-NOS). Doing some research on the web pointed me to some Wired pages, like the Autism-Spectrum Quotient, or AQ (where I scored 35, average being about 16). At the end of the test, there is a link to a 6 pages article entitled The Geek Syndrome which basically discusses the Asperger Syndrome, relating it to geeks. The article is somewhat old, but in a recent news, autism in California has increased 100%. Do 'geeks' have a higher tendency toward conditions like PDD/Asperger? I saw a lot of me in the Wired article, and was wondering if others on Slashdot have the same problem in their life, or if they have been diagnosed with a PDD?" Note that Asperger Syndrome is not the same as ADHD but methods useful for coping with one may be useful in coping with the other. Also, please don't take an internet test seriously when attempting to diagnose any kind of mental instability. Instead, if you are worried about such results, share them with your family doctor.
My roomates and I took that test in Wired a while back(I have a subscription). They scored between 20-25, I scored a 32.
I think the test can help show autistic people(or those with asperger's syndrome), but I think it shows too many false positives. I'm a relatively social person, I live a pretty normal life, I'm just known as 'the geek' in my circle of friends.
I would expect such blatant racism on Fark, but on Slashdot? Mods please ban this asshole.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
I just took the test and scored 40 - yes I know that this is only a simple test etc etc however it does not surprise me as every test of that nature I take gives similar results.
.. and so on. I was always abysmally bad as reading social situations, and as a result was bullied a lot at school.
I believe that I have "Asperger's" which is a conclusion I came to this year after it was reported on in the press prompting me to carry out my own research - yes I am very aware of the self diagnosis thing, however it was one of those things that just explained everything. My directness (rudeness), my obsession with computers which I have had since childhood (my childhood memories include a lot of "FOR $%@%$'s SAKE WILL YOU STFU ABOUT COMPUTERS!!").
It's not all bad though - I get some extra abilities like the ability to remember every password and bank account number I've ever had, and once learned, I can play rather complicated Bach pieces (which naturally I can see patterns in..) on my piano from memory. I can also simply listen to any piece of music and play it.
I definitely identify with Aspergers, but I wouldn't want a formal diagnosis in case I end up with any problems as a result. For example, it I get classified as autistic, I believe UK law prevents people with autism from inheriting.
I scored a 36, but I'm nothing like autistic. (Geeky, yes, but not
in that way.) Raw scores based on simple questions are inherently
simplistic; the complexities of human character and personality
don't break down that simply. A given answer to one of those
questions can mean different things, depending on why you selected
it. If you really want to know if you have Asperger's, consult a
psychologist or two.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Instead, if you are worried about such results, share them with your family doctor.
Family doctors are generalists and are not qualified to answer specific psychiatric questions or, really, specific questions of most any kind.
I'd trust a doctor to provide misdiagnoses at least as frequently as correct ones. Doctors also have financial conflicts of interest that lessen their ability to provide honest opinions. Sometimes, especially at nursing homes, doctors will kill off less profitable patients, just because.
Now, I certainly do go for an annual physical, to the dentist, etc., but this article and the one about ADD, recently, just reinforce--irreponsibly--the notion that there are diseases where there usually aren't ones, that people should see doctors unnecessarily, and that people should consider prescription drugs needlessly.
People genuinely affected by this PDD and ADD stuff, in truth, are very few and far between. Most of you, believe it or not, are normal, plus or minus a little.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
You and the other Slashdot twits are all a bunch of whacked out nut jobs.
For God's sake just, don't breed! Oh wait, I forgot where I was. Nevermind.
2) Not to dismiss anyone's problems, but to offer perspective -- paying attention is HARD. Getting along with other people is HARD. Understanding people is HARD. Having relationships is HARD. They're hard for all of us and require a lot of work. Calling yourself a "geek" doesn't let you off the hook.
(Oh, and I got a 20 on the test. If being able to remember phone numbers and birthdays is a disease, I'm the picture of health.)
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
It is worth remembering that there is a significant body of opinion that if you have successfully made it to adulthood, hold down a job and are married (or at least capable of long-term relationships) then you can't really be said to have AS but Residual Asperger's Syndrome as an Adult.
If you are married and self-diagnose or suspect; get a diagnosis and if necessary, get counselling - it could save your marriage.
I scored a 40, which would be consistent with my Myers-Briggs personality type - INTP(introverted, intuitive, thinking, perceiving). It would seem this "tool", if you could even call it that, is biased against particular personality types. I certainly wouldn't consider my personality type to be a disorder. ;) You might actually find more relevance in taking the MBTI (Myers-Briggs Type Inventory).
FWIW, that's totally backwards. The question is if people with slightly different ways of thinking tend towards becoming geeks because of aptitude, etc. (Looking at it the other way might be an interesting sociological experiment w/r to diganosis, but it's certainly not the main question).
Sorry if that's nitpicking, but people getting hypothesis backwards like this is way too common in pop-science.
G
I work with a few students diagnosed as suffering from Asperger's Syndrome.
If you suffered from it, more than likely you would know it by now. The symptoms are not as obvious as autism, but they are not far off. The students I have dealt with were all diagnosed in early to mid childhood.
I have seen Asperger's described as a "workable form of autism." I would agree that is pretty close to the mark. Note that the people that suffer from this have to work to do a lot of tasks you and I probably see as normal.
Note also that most DSM diagnoses require the patient to have lifestyle problems as a result of certain mental problems. "Depression" is not DSM diagnosable until you start getting into problems where you do not do previously pleasurable activites and so on. If you feel sad but do not let it get in the way, it is not diagnosible. What that means is that a condition that does not manifest itself as hinderance from a "normal lifestyle" is not valid reasoning for a diagnosis.
This is a long way of saying that if you are living a relaticely healthy life right now, you are not going to be diagnosed as sufferring from "Asperger's Syndrome". I find that people that seek things out like that most of the time do it to brag about, or use an excuse for other problems (laziness, not wanting to socialize, etc.) If you were having actual socialization problems on the level of Asperger's, you would have seeked out professional help a long time ago.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
I personally find A Portrait of J. Random Hacker by Eric Raymond, especially the part entitled Weaknesses of the Hacker Personality, very interesting. A Portrait of the Hacker as a Young Man, from Free as in Freedom by Sam Williams is also certainly worth suggesting. Most of people don't know that, but Richard Stallman, the author of GNU, considers himself afflicted, to some degree, by autism, which makes it difficult for him to interact with people. I can honestly say I understand him.
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
...and I scored 40. I've never been diagnosed with asperger's, but I've been suspecting to have it, ever sice I read about it on everything2.org - it was just like reading about myself. After all the thing that matter is not what the doctor says you have, it's what you have to live with.
In the last few years I managed to learn how to read people's emotions, but I still have troubles with some of them, though - anger, for example. Not being able to "read" people, having strong interests, etc. are some of the things that made highschool a living hell, but that also forced me to learn a lot about people. I've become quite good at recognising whe someone isn't telling the truth, to name just one thing.
Nowdays I don't consider asperger's to be a bad thing, heck - I don't even know if I really have it, but I probbably wouldn't want to be what is considered to be "normal" by most of the people. But then, my worldview is also quite a bit dibberent than that of most people.
(btw. I'm 21)
One thing I noticed about the test was that it had a lot of social interaction questions on it. I would suspect someone with strong antisocial tendencies, and few other markers for autism et al, would show up as positive. That could include a fair number of geeks.
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
But,
"Eighty percent of those diagnosed with autism or a related disorder scored 32 or higher." != "If you score 32 or higher, you are eighty percent likely to be autistic."
Just a thought before you run out and take the test.
John
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. jya.com/ap.htm
According to my psychologist i am "contact disturbed". However, autistic persons can communicate perfectly with each other. I scored 32 points on the test.
Autism is a spectrum ranging from very slight autistic to severely autistic.There are different diagnoses: pdd, asperger, high functioning autism. The same person might get a different diagnosis from another psychiatrist, so it could be better to say someone "is on the autistic spectrum".
...so I guess he and I don't disagree about everything. ;-)
(Don't take this post too seriously, those of you who consider Stallman your messiah. I'm definitely not a fan of his and can personally attest to his difficulty interacting with people, but I do consider some of his opinions to be insightful.)
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
I've done a lot of research on the whole spectrum autism area recently. (By way of background, I've worked in the medical field for some years - I've authored papers, run clinical trials, and so forth).
Here's a short synopsis of what I've found, through reading journal articles and books, and interviewing psychologists:
Autism is a real disease, terrible and sad. However, it is wildly overdiagnosed in youngsters.
Aspergers syndrome is probably also a real disease, related in some ways to autism. It is also wildly overdiagnosed in youngsters. It also seems to get pinned on nerds. But people with real Asperger's aren't simply nerds - they have profound and obvious problems.
There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that there is an autism spectrum (beyond the narrow spectrum of those that truly have a serious, serious disease). The best evidence indicates that the "autism spectrum" is simply a speculation by a few psychologists that people who are shy and introspective are somehow related to people who have a profound problem.
PDD-NOS is an interesting diagnosis developed by the folks that are pushing the idea of a wide spectrum of autism. The diagnosis is very arbitrary - yes there are criteria, but these are very subjective. Applied to young children, it has little if any no prognostic value.
Finally, there does not seem to exist even one controlled scientific study that demonstrates that the outcomes of any of these conditions can be changed - even if they do exist. All treatments are purely speculative.
Commentary time - I know I'll get modded down, but this might actually be useful for someone:
What's interesting is that for all of the loud chatter from the spectrum autism crowd, they totally avoid doing scientific studies. They do studies, but never controlled ones, which are the basis of science and medicine.
As far as I can tell, autism and its "spectrum" have become the "next big thing" in psychology, following in the footsteps of lobotomies, electroconvulsive therapy, repressed memories, and ADHD. Like its predecessors, the "autism spectrum" has no basis in science, and will likely, over time, go the way of other medical diagnoses and procedures that are based on speculation rather than science.
Come on bro, a 36 and you can't see the writing on the wall? 80% of those diagnosed with (pick one) scored 32 or higher.
... this is just supporting material.
First of all you managed to almost perfectly full justify (right and left sides) your freehand post.
You used perfect spelling, grammar and punctuation.
Not that I should talk. Scored a frigging 40. Definitely scored a 40. I would stick around to discuss it more but there are only 4 minutes until Wapner.
I always suspected I was a little 'touched'
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Is Asperger's something you can 'work through' and learn to control it, recognize it when it is affecting your social interaction, and work to become a socially viable entity, or is being able to grow more socially viable an attribute that one could point to as proof that he is not affected by Asperger's?
And personally I prefer the term 'photographic memory for the senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch, coupled with the ability to remember numbers and other quantitative values pretty much forever.' Like how my phone number in 1979 was 487-7693, you know, stuff like that.
(Anything) Syndrome is such an ugly name.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
What do you mean just enough to know I could finish it if I wanted to? I will finish that project I started 3 years ago, someday, unless I die first. First though I have this new project that is more important...
Seriously, yes. It is a big problem, I know several open source programs I have the smarts to contribute to, and they have the need. I just don't have the motivation to get far enough along with any of them to do make a contribution. I once got so far as to not crash when I compiled my stuff into the kernel. (never used it though, so I don't know if it would have worked. Eventially someone else did the same thing, but finished the job)
I scored a 10. A freakin' TEN! I know I'm a geek. I'm sure of it! But a ten is not something geeks should be getting. I was hoping for a little bit of Aspegers just so I could explain and excuse some of my behavior, but it can't!
so what?
Yet another INTP here. I, of course, am the same way, except I never expect mastery of what I start. I've always wanted to be a Jack of all Trades, so I'd be a master of none. Besides, mastery seems boring; if I'm truly the master, then everything left is trivial. No fun in that
Asperger's is definitely something you can work through. However, it isn't about "controlling Asperger's." What it is is simple:
Pretending to be neurotypical.
The thing about Asperger's is that quite a lot of us, never truly understanding them neurotypical (Aspie-speak for 'normal'), learn how to bullshit our way through everyday life by emulating neurotypicals. Many young and impressionable Aspies have taken or are currently in social skills classes. I had for about 8 years. The benefits of social skills classes are, well, social skills, and more importantly (*cough*) a bunch of Aspie friends. I have a ton of friends also with Asperger's Syndrome thanks to social skills group. However, I left social skills group this year because I didn't have enough time for it since I became involved in the school plays.
Which brings me to the next thing. Yep, I'm an actor. An autistic actor. No matter how much you think that totally is not at all possible and totally completely oh-mi-god impossible, quite a few Aspies out there are in plays. Granted, I'm not that great of an actor....but.... still. My acting is kinda solid, not that vivid, but I'm better than some of the other chums there, who are neurotypical. So yep, I've been a husband over the years, kind of a deadbeat, but I still acted my part. However, I was also Professor Willard in Our Town.
Oh yeah, and did I mention that Aspies tend to go off on tangents?
I have asperger's Syndrome. I read the wired article a while ago. I think that this geek link is very valid. Of all the people with AS that I know, most of them are geeks in some way because of the nature of the disease. I wrote an article about it when I was 15 and it is posted on a website:
http://www.aspennj.org/plank.html
What's the deal with all the Slashdottians posting questions about psychology? Unusually introspective, I suppose.
I am a clinical psychologist, and I have two things to say about your comments.
First, I completely agree that PDD--especially Asperger's--has become the pathology du jour (Aspergers and Autism, along with things like Rett's syndrome are generally all considered forms of PDD. PDD NOS is just a label that gets used for "PDD that's not Aspergers or Autism"). I see plenty of kids that get referred to our clinic on a daily basis, mostly by family physicians, sometimes by psychiatrists, with concerns or diagnoses of "Asperger's," just because the kids are socially awkward or introverted. About 75% of the time the kids aren't Asperger's or PDD at all. It's rather frustrating, and I suspect it has to do something with increased attention to Asperger's among medical specialists, and loosening interpretations of diagnostic criteria (note I say "loosening interpretations of", not "different"). It's getting really absurd.
Having said that, I have to disagree with your claim that there is therefore no such thing as an "Autism spectrum." Once you've worked with these individuals, you become convinced there is something very distinctive about them--a certain roboticness, lacking understanding of social cues, odd, mechanical repetitive play and interests, things like echolalia, and so forth. It's like someone took the socioemotional modules out of their brain entirely. For those of you who haven't had contact with them, imagine an android that is very intelligent but lacks subtle social and emotional understanding, and you have a good idea. Not to sound derogatory at all--that's just what they're often like.
The reason why the idea of an autism spectrum gets used is because diagnoses of Autism and Asperger's often don't capture what's really going on. Kids lie on a continuum--some kids have more traits of PDD, and some kids fewer traits. Really, Asperger's and Autistic individuals are very similar, and basically differ in their language ability. So it's much more efficient to discuss an "Autism continuum", and a "language continuum", and so forth, than discuss "Autism", "Aspergers", and "PDD NOS" as separate things. PDD NOS complicates matters more, because there you have all sorts of kids who differ wildly in their autistic characteristics.
I'm a little suspicious that the original poster really has PDD or Asperger's. It's possible, I'm sure, but I've seen so many individuals being diagnosed with Aspergers inappropriately lately, it's questionable in my mind. Especially if it was by a family physician. Especially if they're writing well-articulated posts to Slashdot asking for other individuals' opinions on the matter.
I'd really recommend going to a good assessment clinic before getting too comfortable with an Asperger's diagnosis. Find a well-respected neuropsychology clinic. You could also go to a psychiatrist, but I tend to recommend them for drug therapy, not complex diagnostic questions. What ever you do, find a second opinion.
Here's a link: [Link]
There is some controversy about this. Many are inclined to speak of a "schizoid personality type" which encompasses many of the tendencies of the "disorder", but doesn't have the unhealthy connotations. Some refer to the INTP Myers-Briggs type as "Schizoid". My advice is to read it, and think about how it compares to your personality, but don't immediately diagnose yourself as having a personality disorder. If you are unsatisfied with your life, then talk to someone else.
-- My comment is above.
First, don't take a diagnosis as being necessarily correct. Self-diagnosis is rarely accurate and autistic-related conditions are so poorly-understood that most psychs are not equipt to diagnose it properly, either.
In other words, validate any diagnosis, before trusting to it. Go to your local bookshop and check the DSM-IV - the manual psychs use for diagnosis - and verify that you meet the criteria. DON'T DO THIS FIRST! It's almost impossible for a person to not find themselves in the manual, somewhere. Remember that the DSM uses technical terms, so if you're even vaguely unsure how a term is intended to be used, check with your psych.
Second, even if you do meet all the criteria, there is an enormous overlap between different conditions, and there is also a risk of certain personality types creating the illusion of meeting a specific diagnosis. There is no easy way to tell these possibilities apart. Psychs generally do this by experimenting on you - trying different treatments, noting the reaction, and then re-moulding the diagnosis to fit the treatment that works.
IMHO, this is a hack-and-slash method, and not one I trust much. So far, though, no cause for Aspergers is known and no neurological tests exist. Given that a possible side-effect for a number of the treatments is "death", I really do strongly recommend making sure your psych knows exactly what they're doing, and that you don't isolate the first time you try these remedies.
Third, here is a short list of typical traits exhibited by Asperger people. I've tried to avoid the over-generalizing I've seen elsewhere, but this is NOT to be taken as a diagnostic tool, but rather as a quick reality-check if you and your psych disagree on a diagnosis.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Here. Citing a paper in the New Scientist that says autistic infants have less mercury in hair samples than "normal" children.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
And I agree with the psuedo-diagnosis on RMS. But then again I got that vibe from Linus's autobiography too :) .
I consider those with these traits or syndromes who are doing well in their spheres as both fortunate and gifted.
I have close family who are *much* more afflicted, but I'm not really on the spectrum myself (except as a geek and introvert).
-- INTX Grouch. http://www.midnightblue.net
What are peoples top coping strategies in life,
do you play to your strengths or fight to be average?
For example:
If you only work one to one, should you seek one to one opportunities or practice working in groups?
Smart ass answer: do both.
Ignore me, I'm bipolar.
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
...on that whole social interaction thing.
1. Lose the Mensa Babe screen name.
2. Keep in mind that IQ has no value. Your intelligence is a tool. Get a new screen name based on something you've built.
3. Get out of MENSA. There are much better ways to spend that money than on membership dues.
Apologies for the flame. That screen name just bugs me, regardless of the quality of the post. Yes, it's partially based on jealously. No, not because I don't belong to MENSA; I qualify, but I can't let myself join. I'm jealous because I want to be able to tell the world, "I'm smarter than you!" but I have personal rules against that kind of thing.
So... I post AC and act like the asshole I long to be. At least I left a typo in this post for you to smirk at.
I would mod you down if I were able. If you had really read up on the subject you would know that Autism is not a "disease" -- it is not communicable, etc.
And your comments along the lines of "there is no scientific evidence that autism is a spectrum" are also baseless. My son has been diagnosed as high-functioning autistic (which is obvious if you talk to him) and he has genetically inherited traits from both me and my wife that demonstrate a scale. I am easily distracted, have the ability to intensly concentrate to the point of shutting out the world, love all things computers, etc. -- you could say I have many traits of Asperger's. My wife constantly wants change in our household, has bursts of energy followed by crashes, talks very fast -- you could say she has many traits of ADD or ADHD. All three of us are on a scale that has many points of different or malformed neurological behavior.
I know that my family alone is not a clinical trial. But I have personally met many other families that share the same background (parents are technical or slightly-autistic, child is more pronounced).
Whether you want to believe it or not a good proportion of Slashdot users really DO need to "get a life". This IS just a website after all but the way some folks get so worked up over it you would think they were in some sort of company meeting that was deciding arbitrarily the fate of their employment.
Then again if most Slashdot users are geeks and most geeks have some form of autism it would really explain their inability to just "let go" of an issue and not argue it into the ground.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
I guess this possibly indicates that we can't go too far up the geek/science intelligence tree without toppling over and falling out and hurting your head. It would be nice to just keep going up and up in geek intelligence but apparently that doesn't happen. ~ ~ I wonder what happens when two realllllly word oriented people breed, or when two of any other really intense type breed. You'd think there'd be some sort of result of any kind of concentration like that. ~ ~ I won't be contributing since I got a boring 14 on the test. ;>