Slashdot Mirror
X-Box Hackers Trying to Blackmail Microsoft?
wumarkus420 writes "According to this article from CNet News, an anonymous X-Box security research team is threatening Microsoft: either release a digitally-signed official Linux bootloader or face the release of a new exploit that supposedly works without a modchip. While I doubt Microsoft 'negotiates with terrorists,' this should still turn out to be a good I-told-you-so if the exploit is verified." Sounds like a good way to end up in jail.
Does this legally qualify as blackmail? I can't think of any other laws that would apply here.
Everybody in the article was an Aussie, so I assume that this Goddless Group of Techno-Anarchists (tm) are Aussies too. I didn't think that Oz had a DMCA like law on the books yet.
- doug
I'll bet they do. They're probably young kids. People who have the ability to learn the technical stuff, or who, as of yet, haven't developed a mature sense of how the world works. So they have the means, just no idea that it won't work.
> This can already be done, with the well-known 007 savegame exploit,
> Do what I say, or else I'll tell everyone something they already know!
Not that I put much faith in the skills of an anonymous cracker, but if you actually read the article, you will find that they are supposedly not talking about the '007 exploit.' Supposedly, this one is easier.
Easier than what? Booting a game and picking a save file?
You only have to do it once, flash your bios, and that's that.
Unless they found a way to flash the bios without shorting the WE pads (ie; without opening the box), I wont be impressed. It's just a variation on a theme.
They come off like script kiddies. Threatening people with anothers skills/products.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
The hack isnt fake. The hack is old and well known. It involves running the game 007, and using a doctored gamesave to reset the system and boot linux. Then you can flash the bios.
They said in the article that it was similar, but an easier approach -- but their system will allow piracy to go rampant on it, and they don't want to open that can of worms.
Just a bunch of loudmouth attention seeking idiots, making the legitimate hacking scene look like dirtbags.
They're just saying they want a real bootloader, and want to talk to Microsoft about releasing a signed bootloader -- not that they are trying bully tactics. If Microsoft ignores them, they're going to open it up publicy (with piracy capabilities) because they just want the Linux bootloader.
I'd blame Slashdot for making them look like attention seeking idiots.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Err, did they do anything actually illegal? Last time I checked, installing linux on your own property and helping others to do the same was legal, as was giving the hardware manufacturer the opportunity to make it easier for the public to do what they want.
Why should Microsoft allow running Linux on their Xbox?
XBox == Hardware, which means it's mine. If I want to flash the BIOS, that's my thing. Microsoft should allow a signed Linux bootloader so they can control what it actually boots (instead of botting pirated games.)
You want to run Linux on a $200 device? Buy an e-Machine and shut the fuck up. Linux on the Xbox serves no purpose except for "huh huh, Linux on a Microsoft machine, huh huh huhuhuhuh, I'm a super l33t geex0r!"
I can understand your point, but you have to look at the differences here:
XBox has a custom NV2X chip, designed for TV Output. It has a decent CPU, 64MB RAM, and a decent size hardware.
It's an appliance box, not a full computer. I would love to have Linux (Or some other flexible operating system) running on there for Jukebox/graphics capabilities.
Stuff like this is an embarrassment. I hope they get slapped silly with lawsuits.
It's a shame you feel that way, because they are doing the same things that made Slashdot a possibility. (Remember the altair, and if you don't, go rent some real documentaries.)
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Microsoft would like nothing more than to make linux enthusiasts look like pirates and terrorists. No advertising campaign could make this point as effectively as this threat does.
Unless this actually *IS* a M$ advertising campaign. Conspiracy theory anyone? It certainly sounds more plausible than linux h4x0rz thinking that M$ will give in to their threats.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Good grief. An example taken to hyperbole does not disprove the original logical construct. There are a hundred differences here between an Xbox and a gun. For starters, doing what you want with an Xbox (short of beating someone with it) doesn't even hurt anybody, much less kill anyone.
What the law does in this place is allow a company to sell you something for a certain price that is crippled and then make fixing it illegal. A better example of your analogy would be a company allowing you to buy a gun for shooting rabbits, and then being able to arrest you if you shoot deer with it. Shooting a person with it is illegal, just like a regular gun (which, running pirated programs on an Xbox is just as illegal as it is on the real deal: the PC.)
Try a little harder next time to actually think about what the analogy is trying to express.
What they are actually doing is avoiding possible DMCA problems. They claim that the exploit is only needed because they want to be able to run linux on the machine.
If an official linux bootloader were released, they wouldn't need to release the exploit and would be able to run linux as they wanted.
So they are trying to make it clear that although the expoit may be able be used to bypass copyright protections, it is not the intended purpose.
Of couse look how well that defense worked with DeCSS
Sorry but someone has to point out the horrible inaccuracy of this analogy. I guess it would follow more like this:
And if I were rich and then someone made a law stating that...no wait...damn I can't even work that into something coherent. It's that bad an analogy.
To put it another way. If we were once allowed to do something (work with programs and hardware for purposes other than they were intended for personal use) and then some old idiots said "Oh, no, some big fscking companies said they don't like you messing with there stuff even though you bought it. So you can't do it." and people responded in turn "You fscking suck and can either live up to our demands as your customers and make what we want or we'll tell other people how to do it for themselves."
I just don't get why they are bothering to include MSoft in the loop.
Just give it to the people...
(Sponsored by cheeseSource for President 2012)
Reasons for running Linux on an XBox rather than another platform? How about:
1. Built in TV out.
2. Built in *5.1* digital sound. Most digital soundcards do not offer this, the only stream sent over the optical cable is in stereo. The one exception I know of is the sound built in to NVidia's NForce.
3. Built in ethernet.
4. Built in DVD/CD-ROM (although it is kind of picky about some of the DVD-R's used)
5. USB after a slight modification (not much harder than modchipping in the first place).
6. Relatively low power consumption.
7. It costs $199 brand new and is available just about anywhere that sells electronics.
Add to those cool factor and a love of modifying things just for the hell of it and I see some pretty comeplling reasons, particularly for those of us interested in having a media jukebox, firewall, mail server, or just hack-around box.
Granted, their methods of introducing new reverse engineering techniques and discoveries leaves a little to be desired.
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
"Reveal your trade secrets Gates"
Well, they didn't REALLY ask for any trade secrets. All they want is a boot-loader that is digitally signed so it can run on the xbox WITHOUT A MOD CHIP. They didn't ask MS how to MAKE a bootloader.. There is no loss of trade secret... only loss of control for the XBOX...
I wonder what would happen in Microsoft released a LINUX kit for the XBOX, including a distro, and the works (a la Sony and the PS/2)... The loader could still be proprietary...
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
*Sigh*
Why is it that the first response of just about everyone is "who cares"? Are there really that few of you who just do things because they are challenging?
There are a fairly wide variety of reasons to want to do this. The single most interesting reason for me is the ability to play *any* media using this single console. DVDs, VCDs, CDs, Streamed content, networked files, internet radio, flash, movie trailers...Anything I can play using a standard PC, *plus* i already have it connected into my system to play "Halo", "Brute Force", "Outlaw Golf", and a whole host of other games. Also, I can play all my old favorites, using various emulators...pacman, galaga, rastan, etc, etc...
All of this in a console that I already own. Why the hell would I *not* want to do this? Particularly if all it takes is a one time investment of 10 minutes getting the $10 memory card setup. Crist, it's not even a *stretch* for me to make the choice.
You know what's even better? I worked on the filesystem code for the xbox-linux project early on, before the prizes were offered. I *still* got $4500 for that work. That paid for my time and all the consoles I'll want to buy for the next 10 years. Never has a paycheck been so gratifying.
So tell me how foolish I am, berate my hobby as pointless or shortsighted. Then you go buy an xbox *and* a pc, that's fine. I'll just sit back and laugh at you.
Actually, since they're asking for a signed bootloader, that would suggest that the X-Box uses cryptographic signatures to verify binaries. The whole point of that is that, while the bootloader binary itself could be copied and distributed freely, any modifications would immediately cause rejection, as the new binary wouldn't match its signature. For a modified bootloader, you'd need something like the exploit they're threatening to release, in order to circumvent the normal security checks.
Are we suggesting that everyone that threatens to release an exploit if a company doesn't patch a problem is a blackmailer?
They're suggesting that they'll toss away their info if Microsoft doesn't make it *required* to use such means to use Linux. In other words, the party "that he has reasonable grounds for making the demand", because the exploit is a *legal* way to do what they want, and they're asking for another legal means to do what they want, or else they will release theirs.
RTFA. It explains if the XBox exploit is made public it would allow game piracy, which the finders of the exploit would like to avoid (DMCA blah blah blah). Microsoft just has to decide what they hate more--piracy or Linux.
Man, I see nerds as the strongest and smartest men who have ever lived. I see all this potential -- God damn it, an entire generation writing code and administering networks; they're slaves with white collars. Advertisements have them chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit they don't need. We are the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no great war, or great depression. Our great war is a ideological war. Our great depression is our lives. We've all been raised by television to believe that one day we'll all be millionaires and movie gods and programming gurus -- but we won't. And we're learning slowly that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
--Drunk as in Beer
First, there are millions of them out there. For anybody who already has one, it's not $200, or $150, it's free (as in beer). Lots of kids get them as birthday, graduation, or Xmas presents. We have the opportunity to rescue all that hardware (and all those kids) from MS oblivion.
Second, there are millions of Xboxes out there. Visiting friends or family, and want to check your e-mail? If they have an Xbox, just boot up your handy Linux CD and you're on. Want to demonstrate what Linux is all about? People would worry about you messing with their computer, but not about putting your "game" CD in their Xbox.
Third, Xboxes are going to be $50 on E-bay pretty soon, and sold at garage sales all over town. It's cheap hardware in a well-known configuration. When you see a random P2-533 box on the table, who knows what's in there, or whether it's worth the $30? With an Xbox, you know.
Luckily the DMCA does not exist outside the US, and I will gladly host information on how to install linux on an x-box. That's not illegal here (Denmark).
Remember the god ol days, when buying a product meant that you had some rights regarding how you used it?
How come if I buy, say, a tennis raquet, and use it instead to play squash, nobody f**king cares. But if I take an Xbox and decide to use it play an open-source squash simulator, the gestapo will throw me into the aforementioned "vile butt-slamming federal prison".
And for that matter, what's with all the "vile butt-slamming" in federal prisons? Can't we have some sort of 3 slaps law?
"A signed Linux boot loader will not allow users to load pirated games, they say. However, the release of new Xbox exploits that the researchers claim to have developed to run Linux on the console could have the side effect of allowing piracy without the need to install a mod chip, something the hackers say they would like to avoid"
This is less terroristic than the replies and post would tend to make you believe.
forget it.
So the question is:
What if M$ sold a Linuxable XBox at a higher price (one which allowed them to turn a profit)? Would people pay the premium? (yeah, yeah, it depends on the premium...)
Twelve-and-three-quarter inches. Unyielding. This wand belonged to Bellatrix Lestrange.
The real problem is not with the security checks per say. It is the loss of money that Microsoft will face. If they release a signed bootloader you could write games for the X-BOX without paying a fee to Big Bill.
You could put linux,SDL, and the game of your your own creation on a CD or DVD and Sell it to the masses with out paying MS a penny.
So what if some people steal your game. We all know some peope will do that anyway. Of course a Linux+usb keyboard/mouse/printer running Linux/Open Office/Mozilla could be the first "net applance" that really takes off. I wounder how long it would take Lindows before they offered a CD+Keyboard/mouse setup.
Oh this could be soo bad for Microsoft. They will never do it.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Firstly, IANAL, and Danish, so excuse my poor translation of danish law.
The danish copyright law can be found here. I could not find an english version of it but babelfish MIGHT help you out (not very likely as this is heavy legaleese - but it might be worth a try). It states in chapter 6A 75B that it is illegal to "sell, or posses with commercial intent, any means which only purpose is to easy illegal removal or circumvention of technical devices designed to protect a software program." BUT 75 C states that "[the above] does not apply to works and other creations et.al. which by contractual means are made available to the public in such a way, that the public has access to them on an individually chosen place and time."
Excuse the poor english above - I'm trying to translate heavy legaleese.
75C lets me release that circumvents copyright protection as long as I release it to the general public for them to aquire when they see fit - i.e. for free.
I am not away of any DMCA treaty affecting EU, but I do know that Danish laws still supeceede EU laws in this matter. Hence, hosting the software made by this anonymous australian group is not illegal here.
I think that what they proposed is pretty reasonable. A signed binary Linux bootloader would allow people to run Linux on their X-Box, without releasing any information that would allow people to bypass the signing process that protects X-Box game sales.
Of course, the "or we'll release an exploit" part isn't as friendly, but that's probably the only way that that feel that they can get a response from Microsoft after (supposedly) being ignored in their attempts to communicate.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
It's only a DMCA violation if it is circumventing the protection in order to violate a copyright.
Clearly, they are trying to boot linux on the machine (that's what they're asking for from MS) a.k.a. reverse-engineering to develop compatible system, which is explicitly allowed by the DMCA even if they are circumventing copy protection.
I'd provide a link to the relevant section of the law which states this, but I'm pretty lazy and someone else can use the karma.
Help me out....
A) While it might be a fun hack to find a way to run Linux on an X-Box, why would anyone want M$ involved? As soon as it's approved, it's no longer an interesting hack.
Okay, maybe a killer game is released only for the Lin-X-Box. So now Linux is supporting M$ hardware sales?
B) Why should Bill Gates care if such 'exploits' are released? Such an thing can't become a real success until there's a major (read: sue-able) distribution point.
I'm not too sure if anybody already mentioned this, but just running Linux in general on the Xbox would be a violation of the EULA. The catch is that it would be legal only if MS licenced it. I know that's not the whole point of this fiasco, but I do know that the whole idea of the ``Project B'' of Xbox-Linux is a violation, under this clause.
Also, for all of you saying, ``It's my hardware, I'll do what I want with it,'' I'm pretty sure I read once in the EULA that you don't actually own the console. The idea is that Microsoft is ``lending'' you the use of their hardware. I'm not sure if it was the Xbox, but I'm fairly sure that Microsoft would throw that at you if you tried to use that against them in some sort of a court.
Ah, yes, here it is. Section G, clause 1:
The software included in the Xbox Product is licensed to you, not sold. You are licensed to use such software only in your Xbox Product and you may not reverse engineer it, except as expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.
MS's lawyers really thought of everything...
Who's to say that M$ won't just patch or upgrade the dashboard via Xbox live or via new games. Hence Unreal Tournament being the first game that "upgraded" your dash.
Oh, and this might not be right, but listen anyway. Wouldn't Microsoft win both ways if it was to sell its own distro? Really, don't flame me yet. Forget a boot loader, give an entire linux distro with programs like gaim and the gimp. Use something like Redhat or Mandrake. Maybe engineer their own little version. Release the source code. The linux code is all they would have to release. They could keep the bootloader code and any program code, as long as it wasn't GPL'd (basically any software they design other than a modified kernel). Key the disc. Only that unaltered distro would be able to run on linux. Just to mess with out heads, they could make their linux code only run linux programs that they key. Put it in a nice little rectangle box and sell it at Best Buy for $39.99. Add a MSN client (like AMSN), but no yahoo or aim or icq client. Technically they could be going with the Austrailian's deal, would be working their way into the *nix community and would be making a few bucks on an already free distro. And on top of that, if the Austrailians went ahead and published their findings, Microsoft could get them for breach of contract.
And (off the subject) personally, I'm a Bill Gates fan. I believe that we would see far less problems come from Microsoft if the lawyers weren't the ones making all the choices.
Oh, on one last note, if Microsoft did key a linux disc for the Xbox, I believe that technically, that would make Microsoft the winner of the $100,000 prize for doing so. That might help repay some of the costs right there!
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
>So you're saying that running Linux on an XBox lets you dump the games to the hard drive and run them without their DVD?
Yup.
>See, that ruins it for me. What's going to stop people from pirating the hell out of games this way?
Morality? >:-D
>This sort of thing could easily ruin the console by wrecking the market for games. I'd really hate to see that happen.
Well, if it was going to do it, it'd happen by now. Apart from the GameCube, I can't think of a single system which wasn't heavily pirated. And I'm going all the way back to the original 8-bit NES, which did a bomb, despite how many clones were made of the system itself, and all the 1000-in-1 cartridges...
In fact, most systems that are pirated seem to enjoy increased popularity and sales as a result. Strange, but from what I can see, the market stays pretty faithful to that in most respects. Just look in your store and see how many more PS2 and X-BOX games are available against gamecube (the only popular "unmoddable" system, unless I get more info) games, even though the gamecube is cheaper, and in some respects, superior!
The don't have a large stock simply because they don't sell -- they have the large stock to supply demand.
However, that all being said, I only install and sell modchips for the purposes of running linux and making personal backups of your own games.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC