Slashdot Mirror
X-Box Hackers Trying to Blackmail Microsoft?
wumarkus420 writes "According to this article from CNet News, an anonymous X-Box security research team is threatening Microsoft: either release a digitally-signed official Linux bootloader or face the release of a new exploit that supposedly works without a modchip. While I doubt Microsoft 'negotiates with terrorists,' this should still turn out to be a good I-told-you-so if the exploit is verified." Sounds like a good way to end up in jail.
These morons are just going to make the case for tougher enforcement and DRM.
It's not a war we want - because (and not to be trite) everyone will lose. Throw these criminals in jail and get on with it.
You know, c|net did a pretty good job of covering the story without the scare-mongering, sensationalistic crap that this poster did. People could read the article and draw their own conclusions, rather than shepherding the flock to the appropriate anti-X rhetoric opinion.
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THis is, plain and simple, a bluff. If they had a way to do it, they'd release it; why wouldn't they? Who needs an official bootloader if you can boot Linux without a modchip?
It's a bluff to bully MS into allowing Linux on the Xbox. And it isn't going to work.
Umm, there's already an exploit that needs no mod (the 007 gamesave thingy).
.05% of people who buy xboxes to modify them for linux.
So big freakin deal? These guys sound like idiots.
Whatever they know will be found out by others anyways. I seriously doubt MS cares about the
Hell for every guy who buys an xbox only for linux, theres a hundred like me who'll buy a dozen games or so.
It's funny how much power nerds think they have. They have about as much pull as pee wee herman.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
yeah really professional guys,thanks for that
what happens when IT/CTO managers read antics like this ?, you think it furthers Linux adoption or sets it back ?, i know we would look rather stupid if this article came up at one of our board meetings,
G
It's called blackmail, and it's illegal for a reason, asshole.
if the DMCA didn't exist then they wouldn't need to blackmail M$. If you want to prove that a law is unjust then this is eactly what you need, normaly law abiding people (as most geeks are I assume) having to resort to illegal methods to get things done.
Take gun, aim at foot, pull trigger. Repeat until death.
Of course, Microsoft can fix the problem in upcoming Xboxes, which will happen if they do release the exploit.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Trying to twist Microsoft's arm into releasing an official Linux bootloader is definitely the wrong way to go. If people were able to convince MS that there was actually a market for that sort of thing then they might do it themselves, but that's doubtful. Nevertheless, trying to blackmail MS into doing it will only increase the already massive resentment MS suits feel towards the open source movement.
And quite frankly it doesn't make the Linux crown look very nice. Not that MS has very moral business practices; but there's no need to lower ourselves to their level.
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
Sounds like a good way to end up in jail.
True. However, if the story is true, then the blackmailers are quite technologically savvy. If they also have the willpower (e.g. not bragging about it), it could be next to impossible to trace.
And if I were rich, I wouldn't have to rob a bank.
So does the fact that I'm not rich justify my robbing a bank?
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Sadly this is still not the holy grail of the unmodified box.
The only hardware modification necessary is a
dollop of solder on the write-enable pads on the motherboard.
It's because of the added solder that the group isn't eligible for the $100,000 prize being offered to the first person to run Linux on the Xbox with no hardware modifications at all.
nohup rm -rf ~/. >& zen &
Better question: why does anyone care??
You want to run Linux on a $200 device? Buy an e-Machine and shut the fuck up. Linux on the Xbox serves no purpose except for "huh huh, Linux on a Microsoft machine, huh huh huhuhuhuh, I'm a super l33t geex0r!"
Stuff like this is an embarrassment. I hope they get slapped silly with lawsuits.
Even if M$ , why would anyone believe whoever has this exploit wouldn't leak it anyway?
IF this exploit exists at all, it will either be leaked or duplicated by someone else.
1) Your analysis is based on bad assumptions so your result is way off. 2) You're a sick bastard for fucking a horse.
ENOUGH with the "MS loses money for every Xbox sold". So, if we the /. readers are to read you comment, then MS doesn't want to sell Xboxes? Ludicrous.
MS sells Xboxes at a loss so they can gain an upper hand over the rest of the Videogame market. They have much larger profit margins than the rest (Sony, Nintendo), so they can lower prices to such a level where the rest can't compete. Then they don't need to worry about lowering prices because they'll have beaten out the other consoles.
AND, for every Xbox bought MS loses less money. There fore they want more sold, not fewer.
The "Buy an Xbox and MS loses money" argument is stupid stupid stupid. MS wants you to buy and Xbox. They lose more money for every Xbox on the shelves than every one brought home.
C. After Microsoft refuses, and they release their exploits, and Microsoft inevitably accuses them of piracy, they can retort that they tried other avenues to run linux and were rebuffed and so this was their only option to enable a legitimate use of the XBox.
They're trying to force Microsoft to release a piece of software that turns the Xbox into a cheap PC that Microsoft sells at a significant loss. I'm sorry, but I don't see that as especially likely. The modification they propose still requires you to solder the mainboard of the Xbox, and to flash the BIOS. That's only moderately cheaper and easier than installing a modchiop, and a lot more prohibitive than popping a disc into the drive. Let's not also forget that flashing your BIOS in that fashion effectively bars you from playing Xbox Live, since it automatically scans the BIOS on load. Many mod chips, on the other hand, can be switched on and off making them a much more reasonable solution for many pirates.
Modded "funny" because anal rape is so hilarious? Isn't it time we left the middle-school humor behind? Yes, it is a quote from "Office Space", which is almost, but not quite enough to rescue it.
If you're thinking of buying a mod chip, it's worth a try reflashing the original BIOS. All the new gen mod chips are are BIOS replacements, so if you try the flash and it doesn't work, you can buy the mod chip after all and use it to reflash the onboard BIOS. Not a difficult trick at all.
Quite simply, Microsoft has not motivation to comply. How does the "research group" expect to keep their method from leaking? It will leak regardless. So Microsoft either makes an official linux bootloader for Xbox or not... Hmm.... tough choice.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
if someone buys an xbox then they should be able to do whatever they like with it since they own it. The DMCA places restrictions on what you can do, it inhibits your freedom.
So, does that mean if i Buy a gun, I'm allowed to shoot someone with it. Or, if i buy some paper, and a fancy printer, i'm allowed to make counterfeit bills? Your logic is flawed.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
If you had *read* the article, you'd realize that if MS releases an official bootloader, this will *avoid* piracy. The group says they will release the exploit if MS refuses, and the exploit, which allows Linux to boot, ALSO allows for piracy, while an official boot loader wouldn't.
RTFA.
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
> And if I were rich, I wouldn't have to rob a bank.
More like "If my bank didn't charge these fees, I would be rich, so I'm going to make you either give me the money back or I'll tell everyone how to break into your bank." Still not legal, but as an analogy, closer to the truth. The answer is still "then don't do business with them."
Good idea. Give Microsoft a good reason to label modders as terrorists.
Another PR victory for the Linux community.
Almost.
You're forgetting the obvious.
Each XBOX is a loss to Microsoft. Supply channels mean there aren't a lot of em on store shelves anyway.
Microsoft's greatest fear? A situation where someone buys an XBOX, and *no* games. Ever.
Let's pull a number out of my ass and say the MS needs someone to buy 2 games to "break even" on an XBOX sale. If you buy an XBOX, Mod it, run Linux and/or pirated games exclusively on it, then all you've done is cost them money. They've lost money on you.
If modding the XBOX becomes trivial, the chance that less games will be bought, and that the magic number of required games will *not* be exceeded for them to be profitable grows. THAT is the issue.
It's not "Microsoft doesn't want you to buy an XBOX", its "Microsoft doesn't want you to buy an XBOX and *nothing else*".
Imagine someone approaching you and saying 'I know a way to get into your house. Give everyone a key to your house, or I'll tell everyone about my method." You'd probably just try to bitch-slap the secret out of them, and once you had it, you'd fix the unsecured window or what ever their method turned out to be. What could possibly compel you to spend the time developing a key to give out to everyone?
HackerMojo
Ever hear of a disassembler? Particularly for something as small as a bootloader, disassembling it is going to be trivial, so releasing a binary is effectively releasing source code. Just because he didn't spell it out doesn't make him a moron, he actually has a good point.
Don't be daft. They've already got the binary, all they want is a signature - disassembly is completely irrelevant. A signature is a cryptographically secure method of vouching for a particular piece of data, in case you didn't know.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
The only reason that's funny is that it's true.
:)
WHy can't you get modded Funny *AND* insightful?
My journal has hot
And how often have you seen a black man sent to a white color resort prison?
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
It would be in Microsoft's better interest to release a version of Windows for the Xbox than Linux. And that would just mean more money they can gain from the sale of the Xbox. Not only would they control the software, but also the hardware. Isn't this exactly what they want to do with Secure Computing Base a.k.a. Palladium? Just put a package together containing Windows, keyboard, and mouse that will connect to the Xbox via the controller ports, and slap a nice little pricetag on it.
They are OFFERING Microsoft a chance to conceal this weakness in the xbox before it is released to the public by getting an OS officially signed by Microsoft. In no way are they using this as a threat to MS, they are merely trying to be considerate in finding a win/win situation.
Or, in translated form, "how dare MS released a closed system!"
On what grounds does Microsoft NOT have the right to release a closed piece of hardware?? Why should they HAVE to support all the geeks that want the hardware but do NOT want to buy the software that basically finances the hardware??
Answer: they don't. They have every right to release a closed system. People talk about all the goodies that come in that $200 box. Those goodies are paid for by the game software purchases that are supposed to follow.
If a not-insignificant amount of Xboxes sell without any of those game purchases following, the price point would be hard to maintain.
But of course, none of that matters, because "MS is bad", "bomb Redmond", and other similar bullshit.
Err, did they do anything actually illegal?
Well, yes. Blackmail is illegal. As an example, If I call you and say "I know you've been cheating on your spouse, and I want you to do X or I'll tell your spouse." that is blackmail. It wouldn't be illegal to just call her up and say "Joe is cheating on you.", but once I make demands of you in exchange for my silence then it becomes blackmail.
It may or may not be illegal for them to release a no-mod-chip exploit for the X-Box, it is definitely illegal for them to threaten to release one in exchange for concessions.
(standard disclaimer, IANAL, yada yada yada)
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
This way, they get to hype their crappy hardware and make those who would actually use it look bad. Pththth-fit, no sale.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Next, setting a jumper in and of itself does not allow you to do anything other than flash the BIOS. You still need some kind of boot loader.
Finally, there is no incentive to Microsoft whatsoever to release a signed Linux loader. If they don't, then only current Xboxes are going to be able to run Linux without it. If they do, then all current and future Xboxes will be able to run Linux with it. Why would they bother?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I hear you saying, "That's lame. You can't use regulate people's behavior to that level." I certainly agree. And eventually the big IP hoarders will figure this out. But in the meantime -- well, I was never any good at tennis.
Actually the federal joints aren't all that bad in comparison to the state systems. that's where you find true mutant hell on earth.
the abominable conditions found in prisons the world 'round plays a not insignificant role in my disillusionment with the human race. prisons are agents of the state, and to tacitly permit rape, murder, and assault on people under the control of the state is hideously wrong.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Denmark was the first country to adopt the EUCD (DMCA++). Here's a good EUCD status page. It has the same broad anti-circumvention tool proscriptions as the DMCA.
If they really have a mod-less hack to allow unsigned code to boot on the xbox the correct thing to do is release it.
There is no way MS will allow Linux or any other OS to boot on xbox as that effectively makes the system open and then MS wouldn't make any money selling certificates.
Besides, MS will now play the terrorist card and you _know_ how well that plays in Washington.
Discreditable information: X-box X-ploit
Sounds like a good match to me. Blackmail it is, then.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
I thoroughly despise the fact that these morons are trying to use these means to get a bootloader for linux. What a bunch of pussies, what, don't they know how to solder? I installed a mod chip in my xbox just to run linux, and I know there is know way in hell that microsoft will ever release anything of the likes that they are demanding. I especially dislike that they are giving linux more bad press with asinine behavior like this. The SCO debacle is bad enough.
So, let me see if I have this "reasonable" request straight. Let's check the points...
- Microsoft is asked to release a free operating system bootloader to allow people who bought VIDEO GAME systems to use things other than the game software they are entitled to use.
- Microsoft is selling XBOX systems at a loss (or near loss) and hoping to recoup some of their money on expensive software.
- The hacker types want them to do this in order to run an operating system that's not only free, but is in direct competition with Microsoft's bread and butter operating system market?
Am I summing that up pretty well?
- Oh yes, if they don't provide a free bootloader, the hackers will release a mod that allows you to (presumably) boot unsigned programs, be it linux, or (probably) copied games.
N.
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
So two guys make a discovery. They immediatly contact the company to whom it concerns who simply ignores them. After repeatedly trying to contact them directly and getting no answer, they go through a different channel. They contact a news company and tell them what happened: they made a discovery that the company will want to keep hidden, and are offering to keep it a secret if the company takes the matter into its own hands. If the company refuses to even acknowledge them, they are just going to go ahead and not keep it a secret anymore. They are being "nice". They could've just posted the code/directions on the internet, instead they are making great efforts to reduce the stress on Microsoft.
What does slashdot do? HEADLINE: LINUXLOSERS TRY TO BLACKMAIL MICROSOFT. With the subtitle "Great way to end up in jail."
Great way to get people to read the story, but totally dishonest.
-- "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains." Jean Jacques Rousseau
1) Release a boot loader, lose money on X-box, promote linux.
2) Don't release boot loader, be in the public's eye about not even securing a gaming system, lose more money because of xbox sales and stolen games, don't promote linux as much.
The rock and the hardplace. That's exactly where Bill is. Kinda feel sorrry for him.
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
I doubt they put it that way. Honestly what is wrong with having found a hole in an existing product that lets you do what you're trying to do.. but you realize it'd damage the company making the product if you used that hole.. so you offer not to if they'll just give you the ability to do what you originally wanted to do?
If Microsoft won't bargain than their loss.. I'd go ahead and use the exploit they've found. Like the whole CSS thing they may crucify the hackers (making heroes of them) but they'll never put the genie back in the lamp.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I don't exactly know about Australian law, but it could very well be the geeks in question are playing on this angle: "If you don't cooperate with us, we will do it ourselves legally, and you will have no control over it whatsoever. The proof is in the pudding."
Why bother those studs at Microsoft! Why do they even matter? If you have a modfree loader, then just release the damn thing. Hell, setup a software clean room and release it legal. If Phoenix could do it with the ole BIOS, it could be done here.
That is the difference between the problem-solving nature of a true hacker and the stupid ego of these big children.
Perhaps MS could make money by *selling* such a bootloader..... ;-)
I don't think you understand what it means to own something. If I were to buy an Xbox, I could legally use it as a boat anchor, a footwarmer, or to run any software I wish to run on that computer. It's only a video game system if you choose to use it to play video games.
Microsoft can hope all they like, but buying an Xbox doesn't legally compel the buyer to get even one game. You can buy it and smash it just to admire the the pieces if you want. That's your right as the owner.
Yes. Why shouldn't they be able to run their legal software on hardware they own? You don't have to sign a EULA to buy an Xbox.
That's the deal they are offering. They are saying "Let us run legal software that we have a fair use right to run on our own hardware, without compromising your security system *or* we will allow any software to be run whether it is signed by MS or not."
I guess with Linux, you can use the cheap but cool hardware (TV out, Dolby 5.1, etc) and various console emulators to give yourself multiple gaming consoles in one. Your X-Box could then play SNES, Genesis, Arcade, Amiga, etc, etc, games as well as X-Box games.
When's the last time Nintendo released a system that could officially support Linux? When's the last time Nintendo released a console that used a common storage method like CD roms?
What's that? Never? So why isn't Slashdot bitching about that constantly?
Apparently hackers are so pathetic these days they have to force the system to cater to them rather than them catering to the system. But of course, this only applies to MS. Standards vary based on popularity of the company.
"I can't code in the XBox's language so I'm going to whine to MS until the XBox understands my language."
Nobody is required to make products "user servicable." Nobody is required to make it easy or even possible.
What's funny is that I can just see Linux zealots repeatedly smashing their faces on the glass trying to get to the food below.
"It's so close! The XBox is just a PC, if I could only get past this one thing!"
Give it up.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
If *I* buy it, *I* obtain the right to modify it (as long as I don't try to *steal* anything (and I am definitily *not* doing that when I'm trying to install another OS onto *anything* I bought)) to my liking.
:-) at an elevated cost.
... (No, really ! :-)) )
To prohibit *any* adaptation by the buyer (of the device) would like trying to prohibit buyers to add a country or football-specific-flag to their cars : It does not change anyting to the cost or income of the company that suplied the device (nor to their rights to whatever software that is executed on it), but does infringe the freedom of choice of their customers.
In short : The company does not loose *anything*, unles it calculated their income on selling the device cheap, and recovering that cost by selling aditionally requerements (like software
Ofcourse, I am convinced that the above (tying customers to an piece of "hardware"( will never happen
Your points are somewhat valid, but let's reword it a little.
If I were to buy an Xbox, I could legally use it as a boat anchor, a footwarmer, or to run any software I wish to run on that computer.
This should read: If I were to buy an Xbox, I could legally use it as a boat anchor, a footwarmer, or to run any software I CAN run on that computer.
If I wanted to, I could use my computer as a ski-boat, but it just won't float without any modifications. If I somehow figure out how to make it float and hook an engine up to the back, more power to me. But if I can't, I don't see how I can blame Dell.. and I don't see why Dell would be interested in my ski-boat modification. If I wanted to, I should be able to sell my ski-boat modification on my own though.
If *I* buy it, *I* obtain the right to modify it (as long as I don't try to *steal* anything (and I am definitily *not* doing that when I'm trying to install another OS onto *anything* I bought)) to my liking.
:-) at an elevated cost.
Well, first, I'd make sure MS EULA for the software on the XBox doesn't prevent you from modifying it. That's a contract - you may not like it, it may be unfair, but you choose to enter into it when (if) you bought an XBox. Don't like the EULA - don't buy an XBox. (Yes, I know there are various limitations on EULA/contract terms)
You can still modify the hardware (paint the case, glue on decorations), which you own, vs the software, which you license.
To prohibit *any* adaptation by the buyer (of the device) would like trying to prohibit buyers to add a country or football-specific-flag to their cars : It does not change anyting to the cost or income of the company that suplied the device (nor to their rights to whatever software that is executed on it), but does infringe the freedom of choice of their customers.
If you're saying a software license infringes on your freedom of choice, OK, but what about the rights of the software developer? Which are paramount?
Before you answer, consider this - the GPL is a license which requires releasing changes back to the community (except for some specific cases) - does that infringe on my freedom of choice to chose to use the code to create a product and not share the changes? I'm prevented from using something in any way I see fit by the copyright holders - even when my doing so does not change the income or costs to those copyright holders.
In short : The company does not loose *anything*, unles it calculated their income on selling the device cheap, and recovering that cost by selling aditionally requerements (like software
welcome to the world of marketting - give them a razor so you can sell them the blades every month.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.