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Isn't It Ironic?
gessel writes "Have you ever used the word "ironic?" Do you know what it really means? If not, is that ironic? Was Seinfeld's "irony" really the cause of the utter collapse of civil society as we knew it? How ironic was it for the CEO of MTV to declare irony a victim of 9/11? The Guardian is running a brilliant article that clears the confusion around a culturally critical and chronically misused word."
or check out what this guy has to say.
If there's one term that, when used incorrectly, bugs me more than "irony", it's "AKA". I've often seen it misued as a replacement for "i.e." or "e.g." but there have been some worse offenders.
Example:
There are some OSes out there that really suck... AKA Windows 95
Or worse yet:
Man I'm tired from all of that work, AKA I partied all night.
Ugh.
LOL you beat me to it. I've been waiting for an excuse to bitch about that song. Excuse me whilst I do so anyway. Ahem.. "Isn't it ironic" well no you thick woman - it's just unlucky. "like rain, on your wedding day" - no it's not ironic you moron. It might be if you were marrying a meteorologist, otherwise it's just bad luck. Like too many forks when all you want is a knife" (or something). Well, again, that's just unfortunate, or bad planning in the cutlery provisioning dept. It is *not* ironic. At all.
Thanks. I feel better now.
It is the nature of languages to change. Just as society evolves, language evolves to suit it.
Sometimes it is done unintentially, othertimes it is done in the hopes of getting a product name out there ("I googled for it...", "Want a coke?" when you actually mean any generic soda, etc...) and other times it is done for the sake of brevity.
Irregardless of the motivation, the language evolves and eventually it becomes accepted enough and then it gets put into the dictionaries.
I had an interesting discussion with the folks at m-w.com about how that actually works. Pretty interesting stuff.
*shrug* That is how it works, so deal with it.
p.s. I used irregardless just to piss some people off.
There's a page that goes line by line through the lyrics and explains why they are not examples of irony:
The True Irony of Alanis Morissette
Alanis Morissette sings a song titled "Ironic" on her album Jagged Little Pill. In this song she offers vignettes of situations where life is going well and then suddenly takes a turn for the worse. She exclaims, "Isn't it ironic...don't you think?" My answer: "No!" I have critically analyzed her lyrics and have found only 1 ironic episode therein. Ultimately I have discovered that she has no clue as to what irony really is.
That song always bothered me and I found this site really comforting that it bothered someone else enough to take the trouble to dissect it for everyone.
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
How ironic that this is definition is actually valid and in the dictionary.
Check the Websters Unabridged Dictionary definition here.
Go figure.
Sarcasm is usually spoken, and can in fact, encompas the use of irony. I've gone to the trouble to do your thinking for you and looked up the definition:
Sarcasm 1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm
Is that clear enough for you, Einstein?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Ironic means that from what was expected, a total opposite of that occurred instead. For example, I expected it to snow yesterday -- instead we got one of the hottest days of the year.
This is not ironic. It is simply contrary to expectations. If, however, you dressed warmly in expectation of snow, and then dropped dead of heatstroke, that would be ironic.
void*x=(*((void*(*)())&(x=(void*)0xfdeb58)))();
I really hate that fucking stupid song because none of the situations that Alanis Morrisette warbles out are actually ironic
A free ride when you already paid?
That's not irony that's just being an idiot.
Rain on your wedding day?
Oh yes look at the levels of irony in that one. No wait, it's just 'bad luck'.
Good advice that you just can't take?
Puhlease....
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
Why can't we once in a while have an interesting non-tech article here without getting hundreds of comments that do nothing but expressing their boredom?
Well, typically on a site that offers "news for nerds" and "stuff that matters" we expect
1) Some of column A (news) or2) Some of column B (pertinent stuff)
Most people have gotten lazy and sloppy and only peruse /. for the cutting-edge (sorta) news, so they forget that it's important to teach geeks to use the language [English] properly. On that note, this discussion isn't exactly new--the linked article focuses heavily on post-01/11/09 misuses, but there's a couple of great writeups at e2 that address this same point quite well. If you're looking to hone verbal skills, lurk and read there for a while -- it's an educational experience.
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
Similarly, the French have l'Académie française, responsible for the French lexicon since Louis XIII. Of course, in other parts of the world, the language is butchered mercilessly. In parts of Québec and in northern Ontario, I have heard phrases like (overheard this one in a bar)
Presumably, the fellow had found a lighter...
The introduction of English words into the French language in Québec prompted the provincial government many years ago to establish a 'language police' (the Office québécois de la langue française), charged with ensuring that product labels and outdoor signage in the province have appropriate French content. It's a losing battle, but it's amusing to watch the fight, sometimes.
~Idarubicin
I remember reading a rant by C.S. Lewis describing this very thing...
That sounds like this one here (about three-quarters of the way down the page).
GROGGS: alive and well and living in
I remember that!
I believe it was Ed Byrne. Correct me if I'm wrong.
"Proudly Posting Without Reading The Article"
No, your English teacher was entirely right. First of all, if you use the word "forte" when speaking of your strengths in casual conversation, you will sound like a pompous asshole. Secondly, when not only say it, but also pronounce it incorrectly, you sound like a poorly-educated pompous asshole.
When "forte" is pronounced "for-tay," it is Italian for "loud."
When "forte" is pronounced "fort" it is French for "strength."
While they are spelled the same, they are two completely different words, from two different languages. Neither is an English word, and it should be put in italics when inserted into a written English sentence.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
According to Dictionary.com it could be defined as "Poignantly contrary to what was expected or intended". The fact that he quit to prevent the very injury he sustained, could make this situation ironic. If he had quit for other reasons, then yes it would just be a coincidence.
In Soviet Russia, Nigel makes plans for you!
The problem is, if Bush lied, then so did a good hunk of Democrats, so did the Germans, so did the French, hell, so did the entire UN, who all saw the same intelligence and all came to the same conclusion.
The general consensus before the war was, "there are probably some, but probably not a lot, and Saddam is a weasel bastard." The general consensus after the war is "there is probably none, possibly some, and Saddam is a weasel bastard." Of course, we can't "take back" back the war, anymore than we can "take back" anything else.
Now, it's time to deal with the facts. We are now a hostile occupier in a country the size of california. American resentment in Iraq before the war was high. It is growing. We're still bombing random vehicle caravans based on dodgy evidence that Saddam might be in one of them. We're still lining up people and shooting them in the head. In short, we "liberated" iraq the same way Germany "liberated" France
And, no... they did not all see the same intelligence. Intelligence communities do not just open their books to each other. The limited US intelligence we allowed the world to see was comical. Blix has called it shit. Even Powell called it shit. If that was the good intelligence, I can't imagine how awful the dodgy stuff we had was.
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
> His simple definition is "the use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning"
That is a nice definition of rhetorical irony.
However, the example above *is* a case of situational irony.
Here's the relevant quote from that:
Languages evolve with usage. Deal with it.
arvind rulez
I sent this to the Guardian. Hope they print it:
In Zoe Williams' 6/28 column, The Final Irony, she points out some
cases of alleged irony that are, in fact, not ironic. Most of these are
spot-on, a couple are debatable (but probably not ironic), but there is
one case where she is clearly wrong.
She cites an example where she be[*] holding a party, and expects her
father to come, but he does not. It certainly isn't cosmic irony or
verbal irony. It is, however, probably situational irony. The
expectation is not in accord with what will happen. One may argue that
such an example may or may not be situational irony, but it is certainly
dramatic irony. If we assume that this situation is fictional (and I
think it's easy enough to argue that it is), then it must be dramatic
irony. We, the audience, know something that she (here, a fictional
character) does not.
And if you think that it's not dramatic irony because Ms. Williams is not
fictional, you'd better be prepared to argue that it's not dramatic irony
when Henry V visits his troops in Act IV, Scene 1.
Now, for the question that you really want to hear: is it ironic when
someone misuses the term irony in an article about the correct use of the
term irony? No, it's just wrong. Irony deals with beliefs and actions,
not beliefs and facts. If The Guardian were to publish a letter which
defined irony in a manner inconsistent with Ms. Williams beliefs, that
would be ironic.
But other than that, a good article. And I'm not effecting irony.
[*] Yes, this use of subjunctive is deprecated, but it is right.